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Erwin Solo

BOM needs to auto-calculate Normal and Spectral layers like Sansar

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The BOM stuff I'm seeing looks flat, apparently because I've become used to having Advanced Lighting Model material (normal and specular) layers on clothes on the onion skin layers of mesh avatars.  Sansar auto-calculates a material system, but allows the creator to over-ride it.  We need something like that for BOM. 

Perhaps I'm missing something, but it seems to me that Bakes on Mesh is baking only one third of what needs to be baked (meaning only the diffuse texture, but not the normal and specular textures).

The only reason I can see for the manual three-texture upload process in Second Life (vs. Sansar), is that uploading three textures triples the upload revenue.  We all apply the Photoshop Filters twice (once for Normal, once for Specular), and upload two extra textures.  Frankly, I'd rather just pay the L$30 have have the servers do it for me.  Its mindless repetitive work better done by a computer than a human.

The problem with BOM, is now you can't even do that!  This BOM stuff is a big step backwards.

Edited by Erwin Solo

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1 hour ago, Erwin Solo said:

This BOM stuff is a big step backwards

Exactly what @Klytyna and I have been saying all along in the main feedback thread time ago, and why BoM should have been dropped in favor of a materials layering system. It isn't nice when a piece of fabric has the same specularity and normal mapping as the underlying skin, annihilating fabric details like folds and wrinkles (and making the fabric as shiny as many plasticy skins I've seen around)

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Mesh that is using BOM can still have normal and specular maps, only that multiple normals/speculars won't be combined nor applied by system layers.

Edit: I agree that it's inconvenient to say the least that we're basically required to use scripted appliers just for normals/speculars, but that doesn't mean BOM isn't useful or important. Not to mention that the system is/should hopefully be expandable to allow baking of other materials in the future (as I think some Linden mentioned in the megathread), along with having those materials added to the system layers themselves.

Edited by Wulfie Reanimator
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18 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Mesh that is using BOM can still have normal and specular maps, only that multiple normals/speculars won't be combined nor applied by system layers.

Edit: I agree that it's inconvenient to say the least that we're basically required to use scripted appliers just for normals/speculars, but that doesn't mean BOM isn't useful or important. Not to mention that the system is/should hopefully be expandable to allow baking of other materials in the future (as I think some Linden mentioned in the megathread), along with having those materials added to the system layers themselves.

And in typical LL fashion one step forward, 2 steps back. Whilst what you said may be the case, why release BoM at all if it will not improve on what we already have? Sure it may reduce onion layered avies, but once people start seeing that it is a downgrade visually they will just go back to the better looking and more laggy mesh body versions. We have already seen people posting that they wont be updating to BoM any time soon as it is cost prohibitive unless all current content creators update their old items with system skin/clothes. Now what was foreseen by many users and posted about in the forums as far as materials on BoM will also stop people from changing over.

I don't want to log into SL and see people that only want shiny skin with oil or whatever now having that effect applied over their clothes as well, or a skin pore effect on clothes. Will be like I've stepped into kinky land and everyone is wearing latex. No Thanks! Heaven help those more demonic avies that want a cool cracked magma skin only to have the materials for it now on the pants and shirt or furries with a fur material normal map now showing off some lame looking shirt tattoo effect rather than an actual shirt over the fur.

LL need to stop this retarded release system they have had for years releasing half baked ideas with the intention on improving on them later which takes them years to implement and only frustrates content creators more and more having to constantly re-update things because LL didn't do it right the first time. Release it right with all the features from the get go improving on the current quality not going backwards. I mean it has taken them 5 years (last month) to fix the rigged underwater alpha mask issue that was reported a bug 5 years ago!

Fact of the matter is that LL have been told right from the early stages of BoM that there needs to be separate material layering system to accommodate for both skin and clothes. They, like usual, dumped it in the too hard basket and pressed on with a system that takes SL quality backwards, frustrates the userbase and in no way is going to help with current lag issues.

I can guarantee you there are going to be two outcomes of this BoM system, either people aren't going to fully upgrade to it or once again some bright spark is gong to come up with another way to have both old and new implemented on the same body... AKA: Onion Layered Mesh bodies version 2.

Edited by Drayke Newall
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1 hour ago, Drayke Newall said:

I don't want to log into SL and see people that only want shiny skin with oil or whatever now having that effect applied over their clothes as well, or a skin pore effect on clothes. Will be like I've stepped into kinky land and everyone is wearing latex. No Thanks! Heaven help those more demonic avies that want a cool cracked magma skin only to have the materials for it now on the pants and shirt or furries with a fur material normal map now showing off some lame looking shirt tattoo effect rather than an actual shirt over the fur.

I can't tell whether or not you think that people are going to ditch their mesh-attachment clothing for system layers. That's just not going to happen, and it never was. The only exception would be some types of underwear/lingerie, but even those are more often done with mesh these days. Nobody's going to seriously wear a casual shirt/pants (or even panties) with BOM because the fun parts built into your mesh body are going to be hilariously exposed if you try.

The BOM system is not useful for most clothes, that was apparent from day one, because of the kind of mesh in use today. For everything else it's a godsend, even without the reduction of onion layers. It has so many uses beyond the small world of just "let me put two tattoos on at the same time." @Digit Gears had a great example in the BOM feedback thread, showing recolorable fur-patterns on a custom (non-LLUV) body. There's potential for great customization complexity in just that, considering how the order of each texture can be changed on the fly.

1 hour ago, Drayke Newall said:

old and new implemented on the same body... AKA: Onion Layered Mesh bodies version 2.

It's going to be this.

Edited by Wulfie Reanimator
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2 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

It's going to be this.

Yes, Understand that and never said it was necessary to ditch mesh clothing. That was always going to be a mainstay, however there could have been a combination of system clothing and mesh parts, like every game these days do for optimisation. Even old school SL bodies combined system clothing with sculpts/flexy prims to good effect for its time. That said the potential was there for them to adapt it to work with materials properly and even allow for those fun parts you are talking about. It would be a simple matter of scripting to hide and show those system layers accordingly, just as has been the case for a while now to auto hide body parts with clothes etc. with scripts. I take it this aspect and possibility was another part that wasn't implemented for who knows what reason.

The sad thing though is, as you agree with me, its going to be onion bodies v2 and that's a huge downside of this as many (including LL) hailed it as the end of onion bodies and better optimisation of the bodies and content. It was a select outspoken few that saw through that and realised that the avenue LL were taking wasn't going to achieve this, yet were hounded from those that were all for it. A shame indeed. Only benefit would be the removal of the tattoo layer. Still think it will be a skin and clothing mesh layer with maybe more.

To quote the OP of the feedback thread:

Quote

Benefits 

  • Avoid the need for appliers -> easier customization workflow 
  • Avoid the need for onion avatars -> fewer meshes, fewer textures at display time 

None of this has technically been shown as fact with BoM's release. Time will tell, but I believe this to be an obvious overstatement on Labs behalf. Only appliers that may be avoided are skin and tattoo ones, however that is only if people upgrade. Now that the system textures have been added with BoM it also means that content creators of skins will generally have to now not only make appliers for those that don't upgrade as well as simply the time it will take people to adapt, but also make and include system skins. Of which because every mesh body is different, multiple skin and tattoo layer options so that items like nipples etc line up.

Edited by Drayke Newall

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24 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

That was always going to be a mainstay, however there could have been a combination of system clothing and mesh parts, like every game these days do for optimization.

That's... not really accurate or even a good comparison. "Every game these days" does not use a naked body with fake clothing textures combined with some snap-on mesh parts. Most commonly they use either swappable partial body mesh (to bridge the gaps between fully modeled clothing, similar to our alpha cuts but using completely separate mesh instead), or no body at all and just all clothes fused together. The reason why this isn't a good comparison because there's too big of a difference between "every game" including SL, in asset-creation and usage. It's very hard to generalize, even as I tried.

24 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

and even allow for those fun parts you are talking about. It would be a simple matter of scripting to hide and show those system layers accordingly, just as has been the case for a while now to auto hide body parts with clothes etc. with scripts.

Trust me, I know. I'm a scripter and this feature is trivial to implement. There are a handful of bodies that even have the feature, like the Kemono by Utilizator.

The problem is that, like I said, "the kind of mesh in use today" like Maitreya, Freya, etc. don't have this feature even though it would have been useful even pre-BOM. Almost all of the mainstream mesh bodies we have are terrible as far as features go. No-modify, no covers for extra bits, etc. I have little faith in the creators that own the market BOM is most relevant for, but that's no fault of LL.

Edited by Wulfie Reanimator
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28 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

Yes, Understand that and never said it was necessary to ditch mesh clothing. That was always going to be a mainstay, however there could have been a combination of system clothing and mesh parts, like every game these days do for optimisation. Even old school SL bodies combined system clothing with sculpts/flexy prims to good effect for its time. That said the potential was there for them to adapt it to work with materials properly and even allow for those fun parts you are talking about. It would be a simple matter of scripting to hide and show those system layers accordingly, just as has been the case for a while now to auto hide body parts with clothes etc. with scripts. I take it this aspect and possibility was another part that wasn't implemented for who knows what reason.

 

Slink already is doing that - there was nothing that needed to be "implemented."

29 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

None of this has technically been shown as fact with BoM's release. Time will tell, but I believe this to be an obvious overstatement on Labs behalf. Only appliers that may be avoided are skin and tattoo ones, however that is only if people upgrade. 

"Upgrading" consists of clicking a button on a HUD for every mesh body part that supports Omega even if the makers haven't been giving out free proprietary BOM appliers, which most makers have been lately.

29 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

None of this has technically been shown as fact with BoM's release. Time will tell, but I believe this to be an obvious overstatement on Labs behalf. Only appliers that may be avoided are skin and tattoo ones, however that is only if people upgrade. Now that the system textures have been added with BoM it also means that content creators of skins will generally have to now not only make appliers for those that don't upgrade as well as simply the time it will take people to adapt, but also make and include system skins. Of which because every mesh body is different, multiple skin and tattoo layer options so that items like nipples etc line up.

If the skin makers have made the appropriate appliers they've already done the texture work. It's just a matter of using the same textures in system wearables - they don't even need to re-upload. Firestorm now allows system wearables to be textured by UUID - it's basically a matter of cut-and-paste.

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23 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

That's... not really accurate or even a good comparison. "Every game these days" does not use a naked body with fake clothing textures combined with some snap-on mesh parts. Most commonly they use either swappable partial body mesh (to bridge the gaps between fully modeled clothing, similar to our alpha cuts but using completely separate mesh instead), or no body at all and just all clothes fused together. The reason why this isn't a good comparison because there's too big of a difference between "every game" including SL, in asset-creation and usage. It's very hard to generalize, even as I tried.

 

This raises a point that seems to have gone over the head of just about everyone in this debate - BOM could well mean that "mesh bodies" as we know them will become obsolete. 

Right now we live in a world where people need to buy a relatively expensive mesh avatar before they can wear most clothing on the market. However, these bodies aren't expensive because of the mesh itself, but because of the necessary scripting and labor to make them work the way we're accustomed to. A certain mesh maker with a very high opinion of his ability is now selling a full-permission men's mesh body for less than the retail price of the other popular bodies on the market because it was designed for BOM and doesn't have alpha cuts or scripting.

Also, as the current mesh bodies are expensive, the data in them needs to be closely held to prevent someone from undercutting their  body franchise by using that data to make an equivalent body. Mesh clothing makers have to work with limited-quality development kits.

However, if selling the body wasn't as important a mesh maker could sell clothing makers the actual underlying meshes and the clothing could be built on and combined with the actual mesh, meaning that it would fit perfectly and no alphas would be needed. 

It would be very possible for clothing to be sold that included the exposed body parts with BOM because they could be made to automatically inherit body textures. As long as the waist joint was standardized you could wear an upper shirt/body from one maker and a lower shorts/body from another one. The Sims games have been doing basically the same thing since 2004.

Thinking along these lines may be more effective (and profitable) than screaming for a complex new system to make body-paint clothing look slightly less pathetic.

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33 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

This raises a point that seems to have gone over the head of just about everyone in this debate - BOM could well mean that "mesh bodies" as we know them will become obsolete.

[...]

It would be very possible for clothing to be sold that included the exposed body parts with BOM because they could be made to automatically inherit body textures. As long as the waist joint was standardized you could wear an upper shirt/body from one maker and a lower shorts/body from another one. The Sims games have been doing basically the same thing since 2004.

I strongly disagree. The average SL user doesn't want to juggle their body parts in a system where detaching your jacket gets rid of your entire torso, not to mention trying to wear separate pieces of clothing like a crop-top and an open jacket, which would cause a lot of the "exposed skin" to be duplicated. SL doesn't have the capability nor standardization to create a clothing system like in The Sims.

33 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Also, as the current mesh bodies are expensive, the data in them needs to be closely held to prevent someone from undercutting their  body franchise by using that data to make an equivalent body. Mesh clothing makers have to work with limited-quality development kits.

If you have a finished body on sale, taking that model, removing the UV map and reducing the topology to create a more simplified "dummy" model protects you from people uploading that model back to SL and having a full-perm version of your body. These are just a couple things I as a non-mesher can come up with off the top of my head.

I realized I missed your point and just kinda repeated what you said. I don't think "having to work with a limited-quality dev-kit" is a bad thing. Even just removing the UV map from the model makes it really hard (or at least too much work) for people to reupload the body to SL and have it work with other content made for the same model.

Copybotters can get your fully detailed body with its UV map and rigging preserved from in-world, you have nothing to lose and all the content support to gain from just putting your paranoia aside and making a dev-kit easily accessible to as many people as possible. You need people to create clothes for your body, because without outfit variety your body is useless to most people.

Edited by Wulfie Reanimator

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16 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

I strongly disagree. The average SL user doesn't want to juggle their body parts in a system where detaching your jacket gets rid of your entire torso, not to mention trying to wear separate pieces of clothing like a crop-top and an open jacket, which would cause a lot of the "exposed skin" to be duplicated. SL doesn't have the capability nor standardization to create a clothing system like in The Sims.

 

It didn't have mesh body systems until people made them.

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1 hour ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Slink already is doing that - there was nothing that needed to be "implemented."

I don't have a slink body but are you saying that Slink has implemented a body that specifically can make ONLY the system clothing layer invisible in certain locations and not the entire skin without applying a new system texture over it (i.e. having to wait for it to reload)? If this is the case wow ok good for that. If not then you are missing the point of what I posted.

Quote

"Upgrading" consists of clicking a button on a HUD for every mesh body part that supports Omega even if the makers haven't been giving out free proprietary BOM appliers, which most makers have been lately.

If the skin makers have made the appropriate appliers they've already done the texture work. It's just a matter of using the same textures in system wearables - they don't even need to re-upload. Firestorm now allows system wearables to be textured by UUID - it's basically a matter of cut-and-paste.

You are missing the point. All that is doing is applying scripts into the current onion bodies. Certainly not fixing the issue that LL claim it does by "avoiding the need for onion bodies". Additionally, do you really think a content creator that sells say 50 skins is going to go back across their entire line and update them all. Maybe some but not all. They don't make money by doing that do they. Nor I take it do they have the time. Also Omega has never been perfect and still has issues lining up parts of the textures on bodies.

Quote

This raises a point that seems to have gone over the head of just about everyone in this debate - BOM could well mean that "mesh bodies" as we know them will become obsolete. 

No, wishful thinking. BoM is not a be all and end all. Mesh bodies will still be onion layered because the current BoM does not allow the same quality as current avatars. As I mentioned in my post, shine/gloss or whatever applies over the entire body, system clothing included. Until this isn't the case there needs to be an layer separate from the skin layer. If there isn't then, as mentioned LL is taking a step backwards from quality. Furthermore, we will still have mesh bodies that differ uv map wise to others and therefore, will still have the same lining up issues faced by all they other current appliers. Neck seams will still exist and the fix for them (an additional layer of mesh for feathered texturing) will still be applied.

Quote

It would be very possible for clothing to be sold that included the exposed body parts with BOM because they could be made to automatically inherit body textures. As long as the waist joint was standardized you could wear an upper shirt/body from one maker and a lower shorts/body from another one.

Until you needed a separate material on the clothing to the skin. Then it all falls apart.

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Slink: the Redux crotch area can be changed from detailed to "Barbie" in the Hud. No Camel Toe effect when wearing pants. Also the same for butt crack, nipples and part of the cleavage. Very useful small details.

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4 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

I don't have a slink body but are you saying that Slink has implemented a body that specifically can make ONLY the system clothing layer invisible in certain locations and not the entire skin without applying a new system texture over it (i.e. having to wait for it to reload)? If this is the case wow ok good for that. If not then you are missing the point of what I posted.

Then I'm missing the point of what you posted - and you missed the point of what Wulfie posted, which they were replying to. They were pointing out that currently system clothing follows the contours of mesh bodies, especially over *ahem* intimate areas.

4 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

You are missing the point. All that is doing is applying scripts into the current onion bodies. Certainly not fixing the issue that LL claim it does by "avoiding the need for onion bodies". Additionally, do you really think a content creator that sells say 50 skins is going to go back across their entire line and update them all. Maybe some but not all. They don't make money by doing that do they. Nor I take it do they have the time. Also Omega has never been perfect and still has issues lining up parts of the textures on bodies.

No, it's applying the texture that is replaced by the avatar bake. And Omega doesn't "align" a blessed thing - it's a texture applier exactly like any other.

When it comes to updating body skins all the skin maker has to do is release body tattoos that match their appliers. 

4 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

No, wishful thinking. BoM is not a be all and end all. Mesh bodies will still be onion layered because the current BoM does not allow the same quality as current avatars. As I mentioned in my post, shine/gloss or whatever applies over the entire body, system clothing included. Until this isn't the case there needs to be an layer separate from the skin layer. If there isn't then, as mentioned LL is taking a step backwards from quality. Furthermore, we will still have mesh bodies that differ uv map wise to others and therefore, will still have the same lining up issues faced by all they other current appliers. Neck seams will still exist and the fix for them (an additional layer of mesh for feathered texturing) will still be applied.

Until you needed a separate material on the clothing to the skin. Then it all falls apart.

When you reply to a post you should really read it first - you completely missed my point. It's very possible to have some parts of a single mesh textured with BOM and other three-dimensional parts of the same mesh with separate clothing textures - in fact, the same mesh can be divided into up to eight separately-textured areas. And it will actually look like a body wearing clothing instead of a body wearing puffy paint.

 

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Still, the BoM feature will I use mainly for add-ons to the skin. And clothes parts under rigged mesh. Like leggings under a jacket, jeans in tall boots, underwear to cover bare belly and deep cleavage. And pantyhose/stockings under dresses with lace, to avoid alpha clash. The majority of my apparel will be rigged mesh, not BoM. Rigged mesh is superior for the most of the apparel.

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One of my favorite applier clothing items is opaque tights; however, no matter which layer I choose to use, all three had times that the skin area in the groin would poke through the clothing layer. Now I can wear my favorite tights as a tattoo with BoM and no more skin poking through when I dance or sit. Another aspect of BoM that makes me super happy. Do I care that I can't use a normal map or specular map when making my tights? No! It's a trade off and for me the trade off is definitely worth it. 

As to how Sansar handles materials, it's completely different than Second Life. The two systems are not compatible. I suppose the answer is for you to spend your time in Sansar. :) 

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4 hours ago, Marianne Little said:

Slink: the Redux crotch area can be changed from detailed to "Barbie" in the Hud. No Camel Toe effect when wearing pants. Also the same for butt crack, nipples and part of the cleavage. Very useful small details.

So..it will look less like yer nekke, because your bits and crack won't show? "Now with 100% less camel toe and buttcrack!" would be a good advertising line.

984C75C9-0F7B-4EBD-92FF-4BC5B796A3A7.jpeg

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11 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Then I'm missing the point of what you posted - and you missed the point of what Wulfie posted, which they were replying to. They were pointing out that currently system clothing follows the contours of mesh bodies, especially over *ahem* intimate areas.

No, I don't believe I am missing the point as my initial post was about onion layered bodies being needed still due to this problem with regards to normal maps not being on the system clothing side of things of which was the comment he posted that I replied to Wulfie about.

That said, I know what he was talking about with the intimate areas but, as Marianne pointed out, Slink has the ability to change to a barbie system so thanks to her for that clarification and good for them for thinking about that. I don't have a slink body hence my confusion as to how they implement the features you explained in your post.

What I was meaning, in talking with wulfie, is exactly what Marianne mentioned except different in a way. What I was talking about with Wulfie was, can a body turn off the system clothing and expose the intimate areas and then re-apply the system clothing and hide the intimate areas automatically. By what Marianne said it sounds like it does but is still a gimmicky way of doing things, having to remove the system layer and then click a button to show the relevant area. Hence my chatting with Wulfie regarding the autohide/show scripting within a body for clothing as it is now.

As Wulfie mentioned there are numerous positives for BoM but, the removal of onion layered bodies as claimed by LL in the OP post of the feedback thread is not one of them as clothing layers or detailed mesh clothing overlaying the bodies etc will still be needed.

There are countless other issues with the current BoM system as well. But those aren't relevant to the topic.

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9 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

So..it will look less like yer nekke, because your bits and crack won't show? "Now with 100% less camel toe and buttcrack!" would be a good advertising line.

984C75C9-0F7B-4EBD-92FF-4BC5B796A3A7.jpeg

No one with pants look naked, but it does not look like the pants ride up in the butt, and that they are so tight in the front that you see the outlines of every thing. (Labia, pubis)

If you will wear a BoM top without nipples showing as erect, press a button in the Hud and the nipples go flat.

Edited by Marianne Little
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Slink: the topography of the area changes, apply BoM clothing over is the same, switching between Barbie and formed Labia Major does not show or hide things that is applied with BoM. I am not sure if that is what people talk about or...? Very eager to come home to internet and not have only this unstable mobile phone net. I can wear tights and take a pic of both versions.

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5 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

As Wulfie mentioned there are numerous positives for BoM but, the removal of onion layered bodies as claimed by LL in the OP post of the feedback thread is not one of them as clothing layers or detailed mesh clothing overlaying the bodies etc will still be needed.

There are countless other issues with the current BoM system as well. But those aren't relevant to the topic.

Actually this thread is about the "need" for the baking service to provide composited materials.

Some time ago there was a discussion as to whether high-end graphics were important seeing as Minecraft is popular and Minecraft's graphics are extremely simple.

At the time I developed a theory which I called the Crappy Valley, which states that graphics will look good or bad depending on how well they do what they're trying to do. Minecraft isn't even trying to look realistic so the way it looks works for it. Most 3D computer environments are designed by their makers to be consistent and they can generally avoid falling into the Crappy Valley where it's obvious that they're failing to do what they're trying to do.

Second Life, on the other hand, doesn't have a gatekeeper. It's entirely possible for someone to take a photograph of a real-life piece of highly detailed furniture and put it on a cube. Crappy Valley.

With the old system avatars with their matte, comparatively cartoony/"arty" skins, clothing painted on them wasn't a jarring difference in realism.

However, I'm arguing that when you have a modern mesh avatar with a highly detailed and realistic skin/look including materials, drawn-on clothing will look like crap even if it's drawn on using materials. Even clothing drawn on a stand-off layer doesn't look that great. (Let's be honest: a latex bodysuit on a clothing onion layer doesn't look like a latex bodysuit; it looks likr someone was bathing in tool-handle dip.) Not having that stand-off will just make things worse. That's not something that a normal map will really help in Second Life because in Second Life lighting is highly variable and we can see things close-up from many angles - it won't be able to make the clothing item appear to be above the surface of the skin like real clothing is.

I'm not saying that materials compositing with avatar bakes is something that should never be considered, but its benefit isn't great enough for the work needed to provide it right now, and it certainly wasn't something that "needed" to be provided before BoM was released.

Edited by Theresa Tennyson
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On 10/12/2019 at 8:41 PM, Theresa Tennyson said:

With the old system avatars with their matte, comparatively cartoony/"arty" skins, clothing painted on them wasn't a jarring difference in realism.

However, I'm arguing that when you have a modern mesh avatar with a highly detailed and realistic skin/look including materials, drawn-on clothing will look like crap even if it's drawn on using materials. Even clothing drawn on a stand-off layer doesn't look that great. (Let's be honest: a latex bodysuit on a clothing onion layer doesn't look like a latex bodysuit; it looks likr someone was bathing in tool-handle dip.) Not having that stand-off will just make things worse. That's not something that a normal map will really help in Second Life because in Second Life lighting is highly variable and we can see things close-up from many angles - it won't be able to make the clothing item appear to be above the surface of the skin like real clothing is.

I'm not saying that materials compositing with avatar bakes is something that should never be considered, but its benefit isn't great enough for the work needed to provide it right now, and it certainly wasn't something that "needed" to be provided before BoM was released.

I am not/wasn't necessarily just talking about solely clothing even if those are points I highlighted in my initial post. There are many occasions where the use of normal maps (or multiple maps) on a body would be a necessity and help with realism (without the performance hit of having them all mesh). Perhaps not on a human avatar but, furry's, robots and really any non human avatar has come to rely on multiple normals. For instance, a shark furry may want:

  • a normal map for a pore skin effect,
  • with another normal to simulate water run off etc. and
  • then make a tattoo, band or whatever to also look slightly raised off the skin.

A robot may want :

  • to change the color of their tattoo layer (which from what I assume is impossible to do without a modifiable tattoo system layer like it was pre mesh with system bodies)
  • make said tattoo glowy and
  • set said glowy tattoo as a scripted flashing light effect over the entire body or in part, that is slightly indented or raised from the skin all without a mesh addon

A hybrid dragon may want:

  • Partial skin pore effect
  • partial scale effect raised above the skin
  • with the above being created from 2 different creators

All these aren't possible with the current BoM system, hence why I stated it is a step backwards. Sure you cant account for everything, however due diligence should at least require some form of investigation as to how onion mesh bodies are utilised and start from there as a base to either match or improve upon. 90% of non human bodies now days have multiple layers and normal maps to account for all this. This is why I stated I can't see an influx of people ditching old bodies for new. Human avatars maybe, but the other non human avatars probably wont.

So once again LL's claim of avoiding onion bodies has to date and probably will remain hot air.

Lastly on this point, in modern games you have the luxury of one body and being able to conform all items to that body by replacing say a skin torso mesh entirely with an armor piece. Second life is vastly different due to its modifiability and user generated content and therefore such simplistic things can't be relied upon otherwise people WILL make a workaround that in past SL experiences is genereally never for the best - i.e. onion bodies.

Quote

Some time ago there was a discussion as to whether high-end graphics were important seeing as Minecraft is popular and Minecraft's graphics are extremely simple.

At the time I developed a theory which I called the Crappy Valley, which states that graphics will look good or bad depending on how well they do what they're trying to do. Minecraft isn't even trying to look realistic so the way it looks works for it. Most 3D computer environments are designed by their makers to be consistent and they can generally avoid falling into the Crappy Valley where it's obvious that they're failing to do what they're trying to do.

Second Life, on the other hand, doesn't have a gatekeeper. It's entirely possible for someone to take a photograph of a real-life piece of highly detailed furniture and put it on a cube. Crappy Valley.

Perhaps back then it was extremely simple, however that is not the case anymore and with mods can be argued it is similar to SL in the way you mentioned with at times even better sky, water and weather graphics. More and more textures are either realistic and well above the old 16bit default version, shader mods are now generally a must have, realistic weather and scenes, foliage, movement are generally preferable. Even going as far as rounding off the square edges to make the game look like a real hill. That is to say, what you said about SL is the same in Minecraft. I can take a RL photo of something and put it on a cube.

Minecraft wasn't successful due to its graphics, how it looked or how those graphics "works" with the gameplay. It was successful due to its gameplay alone as one of if not the first [infinitely generated] sandbox worlds. Any talk of graphics or its cubed nature being a part of its massive success is laughable.

Edited by Drayke Newall

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1 hour ago, Drayke Newall said:

I am not/wasn't necessarily just talking about solely clothing even if those are points I highlighted in my initial post. There are many occasions where the use of normal maps (or multiple maps) on a body would be a necessity and help with realism (without the performance hit of having them all mesh). Perhaps not on a human avatar but, furry's, robots and really any non human avatar has come to rely on multiple normals. For instance, a shark furry may want:

  • a normal map for a pore skin effect,
  • with another normal to simulate water run off etc. and
  • then make a tattoo, band or whatever to also look slightly raised off the skin.

A robot may want :

  • to change the color of their tattoo layer (which from what I assume is impossible to do without a modifiable tattoo system layer like it was pre mesh with system bodies)
  • make said tattoo glowy and
  • set said glowy tattoo as a scripted flashing light effect over the entire body or in part, that is slightly indented or raised from the skin all without a mesh addon

A hybrid dragon may want:

  • Partial skin pore effect
  • partial scale effect raised above the skin
  • with the above being created from 2 different creators

All these aren't possible with the current BoM system, hence why I stated it is a step backwards. Sure you cant account for everything, however due diligence should at least require some form of investigation as to how onion mesh bodies are utilised and start from there as a base to either match or improve upon. 90% of non human bodies now days have multiple layers and normal maps to account for all this. This is why I stated I can't see an influx of people ditching old bodies for new. Human avatars maybe, but the other non human avatars probably wont.

So once again LL's claim of avoiding onion bodies has to date and probably will remain hot air.

 

Show us these bodies and how many people use them to do what you're mentioning AND can't do it themselves (given how popular modding is in the non-human avatar world), if it's significant maybe someone will work on it. Given that you didn't even bother to mention anything other than clothing, somehow I doubt that the numbers are comparable to mainstream human bodies.

Edited by Theresa Tennyson

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1 hour ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Show us these bodies and how many people use them to do what you're mentioning AND can't do it themselves (given how popular modding is in the non-human avatar world), if it's significant maybe someone will work on it. Given that you didn't even bother to mention anything other than clothing, somehow I doubt that the numbers are comparable to mainstream human bodies.

You just need to look at any of the furry mods out their for specific bodies to see this kind of thing being done. The fact that most non-humans do mod bodies should give evidence to this kind of behavior. Just because non-humans may mod avatars doesn't necessarily mean they actually do the texture modding etc. themselves. Many, if not most, rely on others to make the mods and use those. With even more buying multiple mod packs and using a mixture between them.

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Elf-Thunder-Skin-Aesthetic-body-Head-Omega/17851632 , https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/DiDiva-Mod-for-avatar-Andy-Horse-Male/18113599, https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/RL-OMEGA-FEMALE-STELLAR-UNIVERSE/17414418, https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/RL-AESTHETIC-CYBER-JAWZ-DARK-GREY/13808941 (many of R-LABS mods use this system and they are one of the most popular mod suppliers). All these Show tattoos being changed to glow using body huds or manually, not possible with BoM. Otherwise the tattoo maker will have to include all color options etc., if no-mod tattoo system layer is used. In fact many furry mods do include specific tattoo appliers that are specifically for the ability to change color, glow, normal map etc.

Wet drippy look over skin (note is an adult sl link): https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Frios-Solarian-Hot-Sweaty-Wet-Layer/18016439

Tattoo shimmer: https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/THIS-IS-WRONG-Tiger-Shine-MaitreyaOmega/18027141 Pretty sure this isn't possible with BoM whilst keeping a skin pore effect as well.

Any of Blunderforge's shark mods include additional material normal maps for scales, etc. Also https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/ANTAYA-Blue-mermaid-scales-Maitreya-Slink-Applier/15308153https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/KZ-Materials-Mermaid-scales/18161458 For mermaids etc. whilst keeping skin pore etc. normal under.

Also really any robot avatar that uses a human form mesh body including Nanite systems skins for Maitreya. These allow for glow but also provide ways to make the lighting system work using scripts which can also be used on other bodies.

There are numerous others including nipple mods for furry's, fur material mods etc. But the above should suffice.

Also, it's not and shouldn't be about how many people use it etc and if you want that go survey the people yourself... as if one would have that data available on the drop of a hat 🙄. It is the fact that people do do this and by removing that ability without implementing it in another newer system is indeed a step backwards irrespective of how many people use it. All it is going to do is make it that human avatars use the new system (maybe) whilst those that are non-human or mod will use the old onion layers or make a new way of using both together.

Edited by Drayke Newall

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20 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

Also, it's not and shouldn't be about how many people use it etc and if you want that go survey the people yourself... as if one would have that data available on the drop of a hat 🙄. It is the fact that people do do this and by removing that ability without implementing it in another newer system is indeed a step backwards irrespective of how many people use it. All it is going to do is make it that human avatars use the new system (maybe) whilst those that are non-human or mod will use the old onion layers or make a new way of using both together.

If you're planning where you should assign labor for a complicated new project in an elaborate system like Second Life, it most assuredly is about how many people need it.

And nothing about Bakes on Mesh "removes" the ability of the handful of people doing what you say from continuing to do what they want to do with the bodies they already have.

(By the way, you're not showing that dedicated non-human avatars have onion layers like the popular human ones. Most of your listings are mods for human bodies. The one for a Solarian requires a complete additional body to be worn, which suggests that it doesn't have onion layers. And even with how wasteful this would be, the typical human avatar now on the market is really wearing four complete avatars all the time.)

Edited by Theresa Tennyson

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