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21 hours ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

I'm disabled. Neither I nor any of the other people with disabilities I know find the word itself insulting or demeaning. Sometimes it's said with an insulting or demeaning attitude, but that attitude tends to come through whatever language is used.

Things like deciding on our behalf what is insulting or demeaning is itself demeaning.

Exactly this. I'm also disabled and you said it perfectly. Thank you.

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21 hours ago, Amina Sopwith said:
22 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Indeed, not impressed either. I just consider mitigating circumstances when determining if someone is like a major ash-hat or a minor one...lol.    Doesn't excuse them at all, of course, from that behavior -- I just understand better where they're coming from and tolerate it a little better knowing they're 'going through something'.

You're a kind person. Knowing nothing more about it than what I've heard from you, my line of thought is more, "That person chooses hateful, personal spleen venting over being respectful to vulnerable people who had nothing to do with their little spat. Perhaps that internet vilification was more justified than they think."

It's not really about being kind -- it's about knowing what works -- what diffuses conflicts between people. When people misbehave it's usually because they've been hurt -- find the source of this hurt and acknowledge it, show some empathy for their pain, and there's a good chance they'll cease acting like ash-hats. Even though I may feel the word they use is horribly disrespectful toward a disadvantaged group, they really do have a 'side' in the conflict (when they've been demonized on a forum for using a disrespectful word), so it's not just 'being kind' by acknowledging this. However if one splits into a black & white, 'all-good/all-bad' dichotomy and attempts to make one side 'all bad' then a diffusion or any kind of positive change seldom takes place -- people rarely change when they feel another has labeled them as "the bad one".

This diffusion works because the person themselves often has not dealt with the pain of being demonized, and instead adopted a defensive posture against it via acting out in anger -- the whole conflict is often unconscious/subconscious so their misbehavior is not entirely a choice. When you acknowledge their pain the issues become conscious so they can better deal with them. Often they don't want to be ash-hats -- they simply haven't been able to appropriately deal with the pain of being demonized on a forum.

Just to be clear, I'm talking about specific people I've encountered who were demonized on forums for using disrespectful words, and not a dynamic akin to white supremacism where tribalism has run amok.

Edited by Luna Bliss
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5 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

This thread has gone from offensive to outrageous. 

Is there anything more to say? Stefon doesn't think so.

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Well really Beth I'm just having an interesting discussion with Amina if she cares to continue.  If you don't get it, or don't want to discuss anything, no need to butt in and attempt to control things via your condemnation.

* Also, if you keep scorn laughing my posts I'll eventually report you. I discovered the other week that repeatedly scorn laughing posters is a type of harassment and a reportable offense.

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1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

 Also, if you keep scorn laughing my posts I'll eventually report you. I discovered the other week that repeatedly scorn laughing posters is a type of harassment and a reportable offense.

Really? Is it worse than accusing someone's father of being abusive? Sheesh. 

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7 minutes ago, Sylvia Tamalyn said:

Really? Is it worse than accusing someone's father of being abusive? Sheesh. 

Or repeatedly telling others to shut up? If use of an emoji provided by our hosts is a reportable offense, surely that is as well.

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21 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

* Also, if you keep scorn laughing my posts I'll eventually report you. I discovered the other week that repeatedly scorn laughing posters is a type of harassment and a reportable offense.

I genuinely find your posts hilarious, Luna. There's nothing scornful about it. 

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There's been some robust discussion and disagreement on this thread, but I don't think anyone has suggested that they think anyone else is "all bad". I don't really have much to add. I'll just reiterate that if you are informed enough to know that one word is offensive and hateful and another word isn't, it's very hard to imagine what good intentions you could have if you insist on using or defending the offensive one. I certainly haven't seen any convincing reasons on this thread. There was mention earlier of "well if it makes you despise me so be it" or something like that, but this really isn't the point; if you knowingly use that language, you're not the one who gets to play the misunderstood victim. The point is that if you knowingly use or defend language that you know will hurt and offend, even when you're aware of the preferred alternatives, then you're going to come across as though you're the one doing the hating. If that's not who you are, well, you know what you can do about it.

Love's article was very interesting and yes, people who like the R word and so on do often point out the original meanings of "idiot", "moron" and so on. But this is so disingenuous. "Idiot" and "moron" are insults, but in today's context they're relatively mild and simply do not carry the hateful and ableist connotations of some other words I could mention. The point about neutral terms becoming insulting and then being abandoned was Selene's point about "what if the world 'disabled' becomes offensive?" Answer: if it does, we'll change it, along whatever guidelines the disabled community gives us. Language evolves. (That's why Oxford has an entire series called Living Dictionaries.) You'll perhaps never get everyone to agree on everything but there are usually broad guidelines that do the job. Be aware, accept gentle correction when you receive it, and you're as good as any flawed, well-intentioned human will get.

Edited by Amina Sopwith
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3 minutes ago, Amina Sopwith said:

Love's article was very interesting and yes, people who like the R word and so on do often point out the original meanings of "idiot", "moron" and so on. But this is so disingenuous. "Idiot" and "moron" are insults, but in today's context they're fairly mild and simply do not carry the hateful and ableist connotations of some other words I could mention. The point about neutral terms becoming insulting and then being abandoned was Selene's point about "what if the world 'disabled' becomes offensive?" Answer: if it does, we'll change it, along whatever guidelines the disabled community gives us. Language evolves. (That's why Oxford has an entire series called Living Dictionaries.) You'll perhaps never get everyone to agree on everything but there are usually broad guidelines that do the job. Be aware, accept gentle correction when you receive it, and you're as good as any flawed, well-intentioned human will get.

Exactly...we should give gentle correction....and when we do it gently quite often the offending person will accept it..

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7 minutes ago, Kiera Clutterbuck said:

Trying to do a gang-up on people is immature.

Very true, but one has to keep in mind that people who need to enlist others for support actually don't have enough personal power -- they need the support of others to carry out their trashing in order to feel like "the good guys".   I have that understanding of them some days, but not others   :)

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10 minutes ago, Amina Sopwith said:

if you knowingly use that language, you're not the one who gets to play the misunderstood victim

I don't think these people, the ones I'm referring to, are trying to play the misunderstood victim.  I just think they're hurt and lashing out. I have had some luck approaching them with empathy (not because I agree with what they did, but because I want to enlist them on the side of those who don't what disadvantaged peoples hurt any more than they are).

Edited by Luna Bliss

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I have encountered other types (even here on this forum) who actually believe blacks do not encounter prejudice, and that even the horrors they endured in the past didn't amount to much (were distorted to be more than what really happened).

With these people, not much you can do...  :(      Even attempting to educate is futile, as they believe scholarly writings were written by liberals trying to deceive.

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Strangely, I find myself trying to sincerely understand the conservative view on many matters of late. Perhaps at first it was to 'know the enemy' so I could defend my own beliefs better. I have discovered however that on a few occasions they actually have a point, or at the very least I understand their defenses and why they believe as they do (I am more sympathetic for what they're trying to protect, their need to feel safe).

At first I thought the accusations toward someone who is labeled as doing "virtue signalling", or being a "white knight" (in the pejorative ways these can be used) did not exist, and that they were simply created by the far-right.  Imagine my surprise when I discovered so-called progressives exhibiting these characteristics and making a mess of things -- actually diminishing the progressive side by their actions.

Anyway, all this is mainly to say that I really do wonder if some of those I've encountered who were so demonized by those on a forum for using the wrong words, were actually treated in offensive ways.  I think it does/can happen.  And then we have to deal with the result..

Edited by Luna Bliss
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21 minutes ago, Kiera Clutterbuck said:

Trying to do a gang-up on people is immature. 

Sometimes you have to stop and look at the bigger picture. When one person keeps prodding (however subtle it may be for some since names are rarely named, if ever) sooner or later several people are going to respond to it. If the person doing the prodding doesn't want to have a ton of bricks dumped on their head, then they need to stop deliberately goading people. 

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3 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Sometimes you have to stop and look at the bigger picture. When one person keeps prodding (however subtle it may be for some since names are rarely named, if ever) sooner or later several people are going to respond to it. If the person doing the prodding doesn't want to have a ton of bricks dumped on their head, then they need to stop deliberately goading people. 

Totally agree Selene that goaders are annoying BUT who is goading on this thread?

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4 minutes ago, Sylvia Tamalyn said:

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I saw luna respond to a conversation with amina that has been happening thru the thread and then she was attacked or goaded by you.

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Just now, Kiera Clutterbuck said:

I saw luna respond to a conversation with amina that has been happening thru the thread and then she was attacked or goaded by you.

Attacked, really? Was anything I've said worse than saying that someone's father is abusive? No, I didn't think so. 🙄

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4 minutes ago, Sylvia Tamalyn said:

Attacked, really? Was anything I've said worse than saying that someone's father is abusive? No, I didn't think so. 🙄

so u can do any old thing u want to her because she said something wrong.  okkaaay got it.

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