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Hello.  I bought over L$23K of items today, mainly from one vendor.  Everything worked great, except for one chair, which appears as a triangle from just a few meters away, but pops into view if closer or sitting in the chair.  All other items purchased from the same vendor work just fine and can be seen from across a room while they are next to the bugged chair.  I contacted the store owner and she stated my “LOD” was set too low.  Can anyone tell me where I can set the LOD in the Second Life default viewer?

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It's a debug setting in most viewers, under advanced->debug, typing RendervolumeLOD should bring it up, but raising it too high can cause problems. Some of the TPVs make it accessible in the Graphics tab under preferences.

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Posted (edited)

The "lod" setting is basically the "object" slider in preferences, you don't need to access it from the debug menu, unless you want to set it to values outside the "normal" range offered by the object detail slider. (Which you shouldn't because it can cause unstability and/or crashes)

 

Content creators should make their objects LOD models in such a way that they rendered properly at an object quality of 1.125 or at least 2.

Objets that have bad lod models are not accidental, whether the creator did so through ignorance, lazyness, or to push the LI of the object down, it's always intentional.

So that creator telling you to bump up your graphic settings is just trying to shift the blame away from themselves, that's not an acceptable answer when you paid them almost 100$.

Edited by Kyrah Abattoir
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LOD.thumb.png.0e3c6a10951cc9308cb5fa0c228b27d9.png

While I agree that creators need to raise their game that doesn't detract from the fact that many don't, and doesn't help those who want to use items that they already own that aren't LOD friendly. So to answer the OP, this is what I do.

Be aware keeping it at 4.000 or above will likely lag your game and/or cause instability issues. So I don't recommend you keep it at 4 unless you really, really have to.

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9 minutes ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

So that creator telling you to bump up your graphic settings is just trying to shift the blame away from themselves, that's not an acceptable answer when you paid them almost 100$.

Yes. Unless it is clearly stated in the product description that an item requires higher and laggier graphics settings, you should expect any item you pay money for to work with standard medium graphics settings on the standard SL viewer. If it doesn't demand a refund.

But "pay" is a crucial word here. SL is full of happy amateur builders and we really shouldn't expect or demand that much quality from non-commercial items.

 

5 minutes ago, RaeLeeH said:

Be aware keeping it at 4.000 or above will likely lag your game and/or cause instability issues. So I don't recommend you keep it at 4 unless you really, really have t

You can get noticeably more lag even by increasing it to 2. It depends on several factors and is hard to predict.

As Kyrah mentioned, there's no need to fiddle around with the debug settings anymore. The LoD factor can be changed in the regular graphics preferences window these days. It's called "Object details" there but it's the same thing.

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6 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

You can get noticeably more lag even by increasing it to 2. It depends on several factors and is hard to predict.

As Kyrah mentioned, there's no need to fiddle around with the debug settings anymore. The LoD factor can be changed in the regular graphics preferences window these days. It's called "Object details" there but it's the same thing.

That's handy to know. I rarely (if ever) use the default SL viewer now, but on the rare occasion I do I just use the steps above and it's always worked for me. I can honestly say I've rarely felt much lag from a LOD of 2, but I often feel a drastic change at 4 or above to the point my FPS staggers in the red or I crash. That's an all too common occurrence (which is why I usually only ever raise LOD temporarily for photos if needed, but keep game play at 2 or below). But this info is good to know, thanks @ChinRey and @Kyrah Abattoir - Even after all these years I'm still learning new things! :) 

As per what @Profaitchikenz Haiku mentioned for TPV, this is how you change LOD for the current build of the Firestorm Viewer (6.2.4.5.7588):

LOD2.thumb.png.030906570f37268e3ee19cb4079650da.png

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As many  people have learned over the years, being a good SL shopper is just as difficult or more so than being a good RL shopper :D.  Presumably that chair was on display?   Now you know what to look for.  NOt on display? Don't buy. 

 

A chair that disappears at a few meters is a very bad thing and happily doesn't happen AS often these days.   Since the creator isn't going to help you out, I suggest deleting the chair, calling it a lesson learned.   I would STRONGLY advise not turning your LOD settings up to four or even three. Two is a good medium LOD level. Beyond that  IMO it is the creator's responsibility to make things well enough to be seen at a far to long distance.  

 

There are some creators that you really need to watch as they are what I call  "LOD4 creators".  It sounds like you learned about this is a fairly easy way. Some people here on the forums ended up deleting ALL their trees (a typical offender) and starting over.  Good that you wrote though as this topic needs to come up often enough for new folks (and others) to be aware. 

 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, smirkingdevil said:

I contacted the store owner and she stated my “LOD” was set too low.

That's newspeak for 'I could not be bothered to spend some extra time making a decent lower LoD version of my chair'. He wants you to basically crank up your LoD settings instead, so you can enjoy a dramatic decrease in frame rate (or decrease your draw distance). If I had purchased such a product on MP and had gotten such a response, I'd have written a stiff review.

The solution is not to turn up your LoD, unless you want to sacrifice draw distance or framerate. The solution is to convince the creator to update the chair or to buy one somewhere else.

Edited by Arduenn Schwartzman
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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

Content creators should make their objects LOD models in such a way that they rendered properly at an object quality of 1.125 or at least 2.

Absolutely THIS. I have my LOD set at 2 on the slider (half-way point; default) and it's amazing how much junk fall apart at 20 meters away (Giant yachts are the funniest). And if a creator ever tells you that you need to turn up your LOD setting, they are dead wrong and out-of-line. And remember: even if you turn your LOD settings up, others who don't will still see you as the Emporer with new clothes (Seriously: I am seeing MESH CLOTHING that disappears 10 meters away LOL)

Edited by Alyona Su
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2 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

A chair that disappears at a few meters is a very bad thing and happily doesn't happen AS often these days.   Since the creator isn't going to help you out, I suggest deleting the chair, calling it a lesson learned.   I would STRONGLY advise not turning your LOD settings up to four or even three. Two is a good medium LOD level. Beyond that  IMO it is the creator's responsibility to make things well enough to be seen at a far to long distance.  

Quoted because it needs repeating.  Personally I have my LOD set a 1.25 and would say 2.0 is the MAX you should ever use for a day to day setting.

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Posted (edited)

it really depends on the rest of your settings, hardware, view distance, and what you can actually see.

Lod switching distance varies from object to object based on their volume, but in general, when you double RenderVolumeLodFactor (object detail slider) your double the distance between an object and your camera, before it switches to a lower LOD model.

Edited by Kyrah Abattoir
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49 minutes ago, Lyssa Greymoon said:

What kind of performance impact do you guys see at LOD 4 over 2 or 1.25?

One way to find out for yourself.

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1 hour ago, RaeLeeH said:

I can honestly say I've rarely felt much lag from a LOD of 2, but I often feel a drastic change at 4 or above to the point my FPS staggers in the red or I crash.

As I said, it depends on circumstances. The LoD factor is one of the three factors that determine the swap distances (that is at which distances the viewer changes from one LoD model to another). The other two are the object size and object type. Unlike the other two factors, the LoD factor affects all items in the scene and that means if there are many objects that happen to be close to a swap point, even a minor change can have a huge impact. If there aren't you won't notice much difference.

 

1 hour ago, Chic Aeon said:

Two is a good medium LOD level.

My three main arguments for keeping it at 1.25 are:

  • It's the default for the standard viewer so it's how newcomers and others not experienced with the advanced viewer settings see the world.
  • 1.25 is pretty much the optimal factor for prims. There is nothing we can do as content creators to tweak the LoD models for them so the only way to keep a consistent standard for all object classes would be to adjust sculpts and meshes to match the prims.
  • The LoD factor has a significant impact on the effective download weight and thus the land impact but it's not possible to take this into account for their calculated values.

But really, the way I see it the problem isn't what is a good LoD factor but the fact that the LoD factor thing exists at all. Ot to be more specific, the problem is that the LoD factor is adjustable client sie for entire scenes but not for individual objects. I wrote a bit about it in another thread earlier today so I won't go into detail but unless that mistake can be fixed - and I don't think it can - we will never ever have a truly good LoD system in Second Life.

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4 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

One way to find out for yourself.

Yes, I have found the best way to see how the settings are working on other people's computers is to ask them about it.

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7 minutes ago, Lyssa Greymoon said:

Yes, I have found the best way to see how the settings are working on other people's computers is to ask them about it.

Wow, there is only ONE WAY to find out *for yourself*; everyone's experience is different. 

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Just now, Alyona Su said:

Wow, there is only ONE WAY to find out *for yourself*; everyone's experience is different. 

Thanks for the info! 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, RaeLeeH said:

LOD.thumb.png.0e3c6a10951cc9308cb5fa0c228b27d9.png

While I agree that creators need to raise their game that doesn't detract from the fact that many don't, and doesn't help those who want to use items that they already own that aren't LOD friendly. So to answer the OP, this is what I do.

Be aware keeping it at 4.000 or above will likely lag your game and/or cause instability issues. So I don't recommend you keep it at 4 unless you really, really have to.

I've had mine at 4 for years and never had issues with lag or instability because of it. Even on my old tater.  This one has a GTX 1050, default setting is at half way between high and ultra and that is where it stays. DD at 64 because I don't need to see the whole sim while building. FPS ranges from 50-125 depending on what *I* am doing.  The only time I start lagging is when I bump DD up to 128 or more and then I get a bit of cam stutter or when a sim region is overloaded with objects and scripts. Of course other people's mileage may vary.

Edited by Selene Gregoire
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Typically, day to day, I try to have it set at 1.5 - 2.0.  However, I will often turn it up to 4.0 when doing hunts simply because the hunt items are often quite small and not really made well.  Then, I will often forget to turn it back down until I'm doing something where I'm specifically checking  LOD quality - like buying furniture or such like that.  

I can't say that I've ever noticed any lag difference between running at 2.0 or 4.0.  By the same token, I have a good computer with a good graphics card and I typically keep my draw distance around 96-112m.  I also typically don't have my other graphics settings maxed out unless I'm taking pictures.

In many packages that I get there will be a notecard talking about turning the setting up to 8 or more.  In many cases, for many creators, that seems to be old advice since much of their newer stuff is fine at 2.0.  However, anytime I see one of those notecards, I add the creator to a list that I keep.  Then if I ever consider buying items from anyone on that list in the future, I'll only do so if I can actually see the item rezzed and I cam out and around a lot before deciding.

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3 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

In many packages that I get there will be a notecard talking about turning the setting up to 8 or more.

There's no need to turn it up that high and, while I can't speak for other viewers since I haven't used any of them in years, Firestorm has set a max at 4 so you can't go over it unless you start monkeying around in things you probably shouldn't be messing with.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, RaeLeeH said:

LOD.thumb.png.0e3c6a10951cc9308cb5fa0c228b27d9.png

While I agree that creators need to raise their game that doesn't detract from the fact that many don't, and doesn't help those who want to use items that they already own that aren't LOD friendly. So to answer the OP, this is what I do.

Be aware keeping it at 4.000 or above will likely lag your game and/or cause instability issues. So I don't recommend you keep it at 4 unless you really, really have to.

Thank you to all that replied!  Your discussion on this topic is appreciated and helped enlighten me.  Of note, for future help to other noobs like myself:

Although the above reply helped me find exactly what I needed, my SL viewer did not look like the above screen shot until I turned on "Preferences>Advanced>Show Advanced Menu."  Only then was I able to see Advanced>Show Debug Settings.

Of note about the creator of the chair in question: her attitude went from, "Your viewer is messed up" to "I did not make that chair anyway" to "I am a creator and cannot help you with YOUR technical issues."  Won't be buying from her again.

Setting the RenderVolumeLODFactor to 4.0 helped, but still did not fix the problem completely.  I can now see the chair from outside a doorway, but if I rotate around and walk away from the door and then return, the chair is a triangle again until I move forward a bit.

The worst thing about this is: I bought the chair, I placed the chair and I know the chair exists.  My guests however, do not know the chair exists, which defeats the point of having the chair in the first place if they have the same issues I had.

Anyway, I spent hours trying to fix this problem and posting here mostly got it fixed.  Thanks again!

 

 

Edited by smirkingdevil
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16 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:
25 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

In many packages that I get there will be a notecard talking about turning the setting up to 8 or more. 

There's no need to turn it up that high and, while I can't speak for other viewers since I haven't used any of them in years, Firestorm has set a max at 4 so you can't go over it unless you start monkeying around in things you probably shouldn't be messing with.

Yeah, you have to go to the debug settings to set it that high.  That notecard statement used to be very common advice given by creators back when mesh first came out.  Nowadays, for many creators anyway, I think it is mostly just leftover stuff that they never took out of their generic 'readme' notecard. However, the fact that a creator ever gave that advice to begin with means that at one point they created objects that required those really high LOD values, thus they still go on my list for ensuring I carefully check their stuff before I buy it.

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25 minutes ago, smirkingdevil said:

The worst thing about this I bought the chair, I placed the chair and I know the chair exists.  My guests however, do not know the chair exists, which defeats the point of having the chair in the first place if they have the same issues I had.

 

JUST WORTH REPEATING!    :D.  So doing so.   

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I generally have my LOD setting at 2 or 2.5 max unless I'm taking pictures.  There are times when I set it down to the SL viewer's default, so I can see what items I have that I should think about replacing (or just getting rid of of it's something that I don't really use very much to begin with).  I do think that items should be built for the default viewer's settings as that is what most newcomers use to begin with. While a 1 or 2 LI item might be good from the LI side of things, I don't mind a little increase in LI to get good LOD's.   There is one creator I bought a fireplace from last year which included 2 versions of it - 1 version with lower LI and 1 version with better LOD's.  I thought that was a great idea (though I'm sure it's more work on the creator's end).  

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1 hour ago, moirakathleen said:

There is one creator I bought a fireplace from last year which included 2 versions of it - 1 version with lower LI and 1 version with better LOD's.  I thought that was a great idea (though I'm sure it's more work on the creator's end).  

Actually very little more work as it is all done in the uploader (unless creators are making their own LODs and then likely the 1 li model would ALSO be good with no need to have a "high" LOD level).   Price-wise  only a few extra lindens as textures would be the same. 

 

I now and then make two models and include them. Mostly --- for big builds like houses -- there are times when  a high LOD building really doesn't make much sense --- like when it is inside a skybox.   I don't make different versions all that often though as I worry about people running on LOD4 will put out the low LOD version and then it looks bad to all the other folks.    So kind of a mixed review on the various LOD settings method.   When used WISELY they are a great thing --- I am just not sure how many folks really understand the intricacies evolved. 

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