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Where's my free Bakes-on-Mesh avatar update?

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14 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

And which is why I won't be making the switch to BoM anytime soon. Reinvesting in all of the things for which I currently own appliers will cost many thousands of Lindens. I think I'll wait a bit.

 

Yeah. I jusy spent upward of $L 30,000 on Maitreya, Catwa, hair, appliers, etc., for my new avi. I'm done for now. I'll catch the next train. :) 

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It's probably in our interest to inventory our outfits and start IMing and notecarding creators about re-packaging their applier-based products to include system-layer assets. I just got round to bugging the creator of the skin I'd settled on for both head and body, neither of which comes with the system layers.

(This is a pain point for me because I bought a Catwa head - which I despise - solely to get a passable asian male skin for both it and my Slink body; all this despite loving my previous LeLutka male head, except at the time there were no decent asian skins available for it; I even gimped my own "eye makeup" to at least hide the double eyelid fold.)

It's probably not too early to start bugging the creators of appliers for Catwa and other heads, too. It would help if we knew the mesh heads' timetables for BoM compatibility. (We don't, right?)

It sure would be nice to start seeing all those creators either supplying the layers or showing their schedules for doing so.

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I will just say that I will not try BoM until Firestorm is upgraded to it. I had an alt logged in on the default LL viewer, and it was a pain!! She don't have much layer skins, but I managed to find one skin that looks half decent. It is worth noticing that this is an OLD Catwa head that's not possible to edit. A Bento head could maybe fit the skin better. I am using it with the Omega work - around. https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Bake-on-Mesh-skin-applier-Omega/14391590

The body is the updated Slink.

I am sure a head that's not so exaggerated can take skins better. But I am not trying with my main avatar, no way, no more default viewer.

The skin quality is good enough for 2019, but under the nostrils, that part does not suit this particular head at all.

And I forgot to take off the lipstick from Catwa.

Some skins gave me a surprise. This faceless skin that can only be worn with a head and applied skin on.

I literally could not take the default viewer anymore, so I logged off and gave up on it.

 

BoM_002.jpg

BoM_003.jpg

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3 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Even with my onion layers, I am still around 1/6th of the ARC of most people I see around.  I am not expecting that to change any time soon.

Now that BoM has been released it was made public that work on Project ArcTan has begun.

When this project is released upon us all it could force people to use attachments that have significant less topology and texture memory or suffer massive increases in ARC.

Basically the ARC formula and the land impact formula are going to change and no longer give ridiculously low values for excessive topology content.

This means multi-layer mesh bodies/heads and multi-style mesh hair are going to have the biggest changes.

Will LL also implement tri count caps and texture memory caps for avatars? Time will tell.

I can almost hear the screaming now. 💣

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Just tried, with an alt, the new SLV (hate the SLV) and the new Slink Redux hands.  I discover you need an alpha for the body leaving the hands.  Not supplied by Slink, 'cos you wouldn't need it with their body, but I am using Lara (which I will NOT be parted from).

Still a few wrinkles to be ironed out before I spend a bent farthing on my main Avi.

 

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Skimmed and don't get it, I thought BOM would make things easier- instead we're supposed to buy NEW skin , bodies, ?

And will this make other people easier to see (less laggy?)?

 

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4 hours ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

Now that BoM has been released it was made public that work on Project ArcTan has begun.

When this project is released upon us all it could force people to use attachments that have significant less topology and texture memory or suffer massive increases in ARC.

Basically the ARC formula and the land impact formula are going to change and no longer give ridiculously low values for excessive topology content.

This means multi-layer mesh bodies/heads and multi-style mesh hair are going to have the biggest changes.

Will LL also implement tri count caps and texture memory caps for avatars? Time will tell.

I can almost hear the screaming now. 💣

My prediction is that *unless* LL enforces limits, upping the numbers for ARC will make little difference to the majority of avatars out there, they will just shrug carry on even if the number is in red or if some cannot see them.  Staff at even the laggiest, fullest clubs I have been to do not tell people to take anything off currently, they just tolerate it, if they even have ARC display turned on that is.  I hope LL are treading on eggshells with this because I too am certain that there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth.  Efficiency is not that important if a swath of people lose interest in the platform all over again.  Even for me it will depend on how aggressive these are enforced because currently my avatar is exceptionally efficient if you go by current numbers, if that still means I have to ditch even a large part of what I currently wear because it isn't possible to use it any more, it will curb my interest in buying more.  I mean why buy anything else to wear if in a short while the numbers and limits are manipulated again and it becomes junk.  I for one wouldn't want to play that game.

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7 minutes ago, VivianWord said:

Skimmed and don't get it, I thought BOM would make things easier- instead we're supposed to buy NEW skin , bodies, ?

And will this make other people easier to see (less laggy?)?

The idea is that the body creators will release a new body version, as the changes they'd have to make don't have to be that difficult. These new body versions can be done without applier layers, which contribute to lag (as you're effectively wearing four copies of your body at all times). So the updated bodies would be less laggy, in theory... but at the cost of making all of your appliers useless, and all of your clothing's autoalpha will no longer work, and your body won't have an alpha hud anymore. Is the benefit worth the downsides? ....no comment :P

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10 minutes ago, AyelaNewLife said:

The idea is that the body creators will release a new body version, as the changes they'd have to make don't have to be that difficult.

If a body creator provides an optional way to smooth out the more interesting personal areas to make it actually look like you are wearing clothing and hide the fact it is the SL equivalent of body paint then that raises the effort and difficulty somewhat as the mesh will have to have two styles and be switched at the click of a HUD button.  That is more scripting and mesh changes, even if minimal, to do that.  I doubt that many will be just making a change to enable BoM feature and calling it done, certainly not if they are removing onion-skin layers too.  There is probably a whole heap of work to properly release a BoM product, especially if the plan is to have one body that works both ways.

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22 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

If a body creator provides an optional way to smooth out the more interesting personal areas to make it actually look like you are wearing clothing and hide the fact it is the SL equivalent of body paint then that raises the effort and difficulty somewhat as the mesh will have to have two styles and be switched at the click of a HUD button.  That is more scripting and mesh changes, even if minimal, to do that.  I doubt that many will be just making a change to enable BoM feature and calling it done, certainly not if they are removing onion-skin layers too.  There is probably a whole heap of work to properly release a BoM product, especially if the plan is to have one body that works both ways.

I should have put more emphasis on the "have" there. Because you're right; a creator can just tick a box and re-release their product as BoM friendly... but that would fail to deliver the performance benefits of BoM. Doing the job properly is much more involved.

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4 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

My prediction is that *unless* LL enforces limits, upping the numbers for ARC will make little difference to the majority of avatars out there, they will just shrug carry on even if the number is in red or if some cannot see them.  Staff at even the laggiest, fullest clubs I have been to do not tell people to take anything off currently, they just tolerate it, if they even have ARC display turned on that is.  I hope LL are treading on eggshells with this because I too am certain that there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth.  Efficiency is not that important if a swath of people lose interest in the platform all over again.  Even for me it will depend on how aggressive these are enforced because currently my avatar is exceptionally efficient if you go by current numbers, if that still means I have to ditch even a large part of what I currently wear because it isn't possible to use it any more, it will curb my interest in buying more.  I mean why buy anything else to wear if in a short while the numbers and limits are manipulated again and it becomes junk.  I for one wouldn't want to play that game.

At one of the last content creator meet ups I had been to, they talked about how they want to start doing new tutorial type videos again, and use those to help guide people along in preparation for the ARCtan thing. Like how to identify good and bad optimization was one example they said.

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Posted (edited)

In a way I can now understand why Bake on mesh was so important to LL. It gives an opportunity for mesh body creators to "clean up their act" before work begins on ARCTan.

6 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

My prediction is that *unless* LL enforces limits, upping the numbers for ARC will make little difference to the majority of avatars out there, they will just shrug carry on even if the number is in red or if some cannot see them.  Staff at even the laggiest, fullest clubs I have been to do not tell people to take anything off currently, they just tolerate it, if they even have ARC display turned on that is.  I hope LL are treading on eggshells with this because I too am certain that there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth.  Efficiency is not that important if a swath of people lose interest in the platform all over again.  Even for me it will depend on how aggressive these are enforced because currently my avatar is exceptionally efficient if you go by current numbers, if that still means I have to ditch even a large part of what I currently wear because it isn't possible to use it any more, it will curb my interest in buying more.  I mean why buy anything else to wear if in a short while the numbers and limits are manipulated again and it becomes junk.  I for one wouldn't want to play that game.

They need to provide better support for script/parcels to filter visitors based on that and people will care. Right now it's extremely unreliable and has false positives.

And unlike script count, once they fix the current loopholes in the complexity code it should be pretty reliable.

Edited by Kyrah Abattoir

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13 hours ago, kiramanell said:

Yeah. I jusy spent upward of $L 30,000 on Maitreya, Catwa, hair, appliers, etc., for my new avi. I'm done for now. I'll catch the next train. :) 

Now the challenge is seeing of a texture for the classic avatar was included with the skin applier you bought. In my YS&YS skin there was a texture for the classic avatar. So, I'm good. Plus a bunch of the Applier features (tan lines, cleavage, etc) are included as tattoos.

Now you'll find out how good your merchants are. Will they update whatever you've bought in the last year?

Slink update are free depending on what you own. Plus Slink is updating people that bought single items to Delux or Bundle packages depending on how much of whatever they have. So, what will Catwa and Maitreya do? We'll have to wait and see.

6 hours ago, VivianWord said:

Skimmed and don't get it, I thought BOM would make things easier- instead we're supposed to buy NEW skin , bodies, ?

And will this make other people easier to see (less laggy?)?

You may be misunderstanding what was meant by EASIER. The Slink release has a way simpler HUD, going from 5 panels to 1. Also, one can make swimsuits, lingerie, stockings, and other things without having to learn Blender or how to script appliers. Outfits will be easier and have fewer parts. Both the design and user side of building/using an avatar got simpler.

My existing skin works just fine. Plus a number of my old classic avatar swimsuits work well with my Slink BoM body. 

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5 minutes ago, Nalates Urriah said:

In my YS&YS skin there was a texture for the classic avatar.

Quick Q: I have a system skin called "Only Body" in with the box of my head skin from YS&YS, only appliers in the body skin box. Is that what you've got, or do you have a full body skin? (I'll poke the creator if the latter)

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52 minutes ago, AyelaNewLife said:

Quick Q: I have a system skin called "Only Body" in with the box of my head skin from YS&YS, only appliers in the body skin box. Is that what you've got, or do you have a full body skin? (I'll poke the creator if the latter)

I am not sure what you have. My skin came with no provision for any head other than the classic. The classic skin that came with mine covers head, upper, and lower. 

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5 hours ago, Digit Gears said:

At one of the last content creator meet ups I had been to, they talked about how they want to start doing new tutorial type videos again, and use those to help guide people along in preparation for the ARCtan thing. Like how to identify good and bad optimization was one example they said.

If experience has taught us anything, it is that you can try educate as much as you like but ultimately if people don't care, then they don't care.

4 hours ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

In a way I can now understand why Bake on mesh was so important to LL. It gives an opportunity for mesh body creators to "clean up their act" before work begins on ARCTan.

Yes, I can see that this is obviously a continuum of a plan to try to improve performance.

4 hours ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

They need to provide better support for script/parcels to filter visitors based on that and people will care. Right now it's extremely unreliable and has false positives.

And unlike script count, once they fix the current loopholes in the complexity code it should be pretty reliable.

I am not so sure and I don't think people will react kindly to being forced.  I think it is possible you underestimate the tenacity of people when it comes to the way they want to present themselves.  One example is that at crowded shopping events, it would make sense to come as the lowest complexity avatar that is reasonable.  Some people remove unnecessary attachments and do their bit, however the vast majority don't and just complain about the extreme lag.  Why? because the way they look is more important, even when they know how they can do their bit to improve things, they just don't care.

In the future, if region owners are able to set complexity limits and do so, I suspect that a) a lot of people will just go to other places.  There are plenty of places on the grid and there will always be another place that lets them wear their stuff or b) the place is a shop or shopping event and they and their like-minded friends will complain like hell to the owners/organisers and publicly about them until they change it - and they will or lose customers and become irrelevant as people move to other events that are more permissive.  This latter *is* what happened when a couple of events did try booting avatars with high complexity via a bot.  That is why there are no major shopping events doing this now.

During sales of the more popular clothing shops, the biggest issue that gets most complaints is that people are AFK whilst in the shop and they want them booted.  I never, ever, see anyone complain about anyone's complexity even if the region is full and the vendors are lagging.  Never hear the CSR's or owners ask people to remove items to alleviate reduce complexity either.  This is always considered unfortunate but acceptable.  The customer complaints  are always about people taking up a slot on a full region when they don't appear to be shopping even though they are told over and over that not moving does not mean AFK.  Major clothing shops will not boot avatars for resource use during busy times when revenue is at stake, they just won't.

Maybe this is not true for all types of events or regions and maybe those that aren't commerce based or sell things other than clothes are able to pull it off but I am pretty sure that the clothing market is a significant enough slice of the pie to be considered relevant.

There are a lot of region owners that need the patronage of other residents far more than the other residents need to go visit their region.  I would urge a high degree of caution for owners with such tools.

I guess we will have to wait and see what happens.
 

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23 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

In the future, if region owners are able to set complexity limits and do so, I suspect that a) a lot of people will just go to other places.  There are plenty of places on the grid and there will always be another place that lets them wear their stuff or b) the place is a shop or shopping event and they and their like-minded friends will complain like hell to the owners/organisers and publicly about them until they change it - and they will or lose customers and become irrelevant as people move to other events that are more permissive.  This latter *is* what happened when a couple of events did try booting avatars with high complexity via a bot.  That is why there are no major shopping events doing this now.

You're not wrong but this? Pretty sure people will make the easy choice between altering their look and getting new toys? I don't know, why would you go at a shopping event to be seen? they are such a laggy mess.

There is another reason nobody uses complexity in script decisions for anything serious: It doesn't work reliably at all. Complexity will fluctuate wildly over time because the region computes it based on "statistical measures" provided by the currently connected viewers. The implementation is just terrible.

Viewers reporting on what complexity they see, very secure...

It's also not really a good metric in its present state because of things like the rigged mesh lod bug and bounding box stretching, which allows many creators to boast completely unrealistic (low) complexity scores.

To me it's very much like ecology or an example of the tragedy of the commons. Our personal choices affect everyone around us.

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5 minutes ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

You're not wrong but this? Pretty sure people will make the easy choice between altering their look and getting new toys? I don't know, why would you go at a shopping event to be seen? they are such a laggy mess.

There is another reason nobody uses complexity in script decisions for anything serious: It doesn't work reliably at all. Complexity will fluctuate wildly over time because the region computes it based on "statistical measures" provided by the currently connected viewers. The implementation is just terrible.

Viewers reporting on what complexity they see, very secure...

It's also not really a good metric in its present state because of things like the rigged mesh lod bug and bounding box stretching, which allows many creators to boast completely unrealistic (low) complexity scores.

To me it's very much like ecology or an example of the tragedy of the commons. Our personal choices affect everyone around us.

Anything is possible but I don't think I am far from the mark.  I think we have had vastly different SL experiences due to the people we know and the places we go.  My thoughts about it are extrapolated from years of seeing what I described in action around me as I am sure your thoughts and descriptions are.  The real question is, which set of experiences represents the larger portion of the population?  We will have to see.

On a side note, if the end goal of choosing to target performance and introducing limitations is that we end up with less detailed and realistic looking items and back to a more stylised look to everything then I think it will be a uphill struggle to get people in my slice of SL to want those new toys.  Realism is king for those people and if anything they want more detailed items and more realism even if they can only see it up close.  The people I come into contact with often look very closely at their own and each other's avatars and place a lot of store on detailing and realism.  Expectations have been set by recent levels of detailing and realism available, I think it will be very hard to change them to accept lower detailing and realism levels.
 

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37 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

On a side note, if the end goal of choosing to target performance and introducing limitations is that we end up with less detailed and realistic looking items and back to a more stylised look to everything then I think it will be a uphill struggle to get people in my slice of SL to want those new toys.

This is where people like you have it completely wrong: less polygons doesn't mean less details. That's what you and your like-minded fellows think, but it's not so.

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1 minute ago, OptimoMaximo said:

This is where people like you have it completely wrong: less polygons doesn't mean less details. That's what you and your like-minded fellows think, but it's not so.

I was actually mainly referring to smaller resolution textures for things you cannot see much of when not zoomed in.  So no it isn't what I think at all.
 

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5 hours ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

You're not wrong but this? Pretty sure people will make the easy choice between altering their look and getting new toys?

From my experience, the 'easy choice' is to rant and complain about how unfair these restrictions are, and how they'll just take their custom elsewhere if they aren't wanted, and how they'll tell all their friends not to shop here, and how they'll report you to "Linden Labs" for discrimination. 

Yes, such people are idiots. Chances are, they have no idea what the cause of their high resource usage is. They'll strip off naked, not realising that their Belleza body is the main source of their high ARCTan complexity and their XCite lady parts are the main source of their high script memory usage; and so they'll rant and rave about how the checks are either broken or unfair, and go elsewhere.

People are inherently irrational, sadly.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, AyelaNewLife said:

From my experience, the 'easy choice' is to rant and complain about how unfair these restrictions are, and how they'll just take their custom elsewhere if they aren't wanted, and how they'll tell all their friends not to shop here, and how they'll report you to "Linden Labs" for discrimination. 

Yes, such people are idiots. Chances are, they have no idea what the cause of their high resource usage is. They'll strip off naked, not realising that their Belleza body is the main source of their high ARCTan complexity and their XCite lady parts are the main source of their high script memory usage; and so they'll rant and rave about how the checks are either broken or unfair, and go elsewhere.

People are inherently irrational, sadly.

I know, i added complexity check to my experience entry gate for well... experimentation purpose (it's not a place you are required/need to visit, so I use it mostly as a testing ground).

I even went to the trouble of making the gate script run a quick analysis of the person's wearables to give them a suggestions. And ONE person did get a little hissy about it and said basically: "So we can't use mesh bodies here?"

My script can only "suggest" what you could take off based on LI (there is no way to fetch the complexity of individual objects at the moment) and i guess it suggested them to take off their body. So I disabled that piece of code, until we can collect more accurate metrics.

Edited by Kyrah Abattoir
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On 8/29/2019 at 8:26 AM, Gabriele Graves said:

I was actually mainly referring to smaller resolution textures for things you cannot see much of when not zoomed in.  So no it isn't what I think at all.

Another bad practice. What do you need a 1024 dedicated texture for a small detail object? a smaller resolution texture would do the job anyway, if ever the object needs a dedicated texture and not be packed together with object. See again my previous comment on the type of mindset and transfer that from poly count to texture usage.

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Posted (edited)

You know what?  I don't care, you are free to think what you want but I refused to be boxed by your narrow thinking.

Edited by Gabriele Graves
Changed text.

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