Beth Macbain Posted August 17, 2019 Share Posted August 17, 2019 2 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said: Wow, so much judge! Yes, and take a look at most of the people who are doing the judging here. Notice anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted August 18, 2019 Author Share Posted August 18, 2019 10 hours ago, Beth Macbain said: Yes, and take a look at most of the people who are doing the judging here. Notice anything? Yep, they are female and deciding the lawsuit against another female. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amina Sopwith Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 22 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said: Yep, they are female and deciding the lawsuit against another female. They're reacting to the "oh look, woman does something silly, feminism is such a crock and feminists are all ugly/stupid/irrational/man-hating-castrators-in-waiting" backdrop. Which is one reason why the backdrop creators do it. It works very well. Case in point. As an added advantage (which I do not believe the previous posters on this thread are doing), it also encourages women to do the internalised misogyny of "yes women suck, but I'm not like other women", and thus reinforcing the idea that women are all b*tchy and hate each other etc etc etc. Like I said, it works very well. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted August 18, 2019 Author Share Posted August 18, 2019 1 hour ago, Amina Sopwith said: They're reacting to the "oh look, woman does something silly, feminism is such a crock and feminists are all ugly/stupid/irrational/man-hating-castrators-in-waiting" backdrop. Which is one reason why the backdrop creators do it. It works very well. Case in point. As an added advantage (which I do not believe the previous posters on this thread are doing), it also encourages women to do the internalised misogyny of "yes women suck, but I'm not like other women", and thus reinforcing the idea that women are all b*tchy and hate each other etc etc etc. Like I said, it works very well. It’s all very confusing to me. When I see a story like the article in the original post, I assume it has some truth to it, the person is seeking justice, and hopefully justice will be done accordingly. I don’t assume there is an alternate narrative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innula Zenovka Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 (edited) On 8/18/2019 at 11:42 AM, Love Zhaoying said: It’s all very confusing to me. When I see a story like the article in the original post, I assume it has some truth to it, the person is seeking justice, and hopefully justice will be done accordingly. I don’t assume there is an alternate narrative. Certainly there is some truth in it, in that both sides agree she used to work for LL and has now resigned after complaints about her performance at work. The rest of it is, as I understand it, disputed, so the contentious parts of her complaint need to be resolved by an impartial tribunal after it has properly considered the evidence presented by both sides. Since she's the one making the complaint, she's required to prove it to the civil standard -- the preponderance of evidence, I think it is, in the US -- and since we don't have access to any of the evidence she intends to submit, nor to any evidence LL intend to submit in rebuttal, I don't really think speculation based on prejudice (that is, having reached a provisional judgment without reference to the evidence) is going to be particularly helpful for anyone. The most I assume about any case, civil or criminal, is that the complaint, if true, means the complainant or the prosecution has a case in law. I also assume, possibly rather cynically, that anyone who feels aggrieved about losing their job (or finding themselves in a position where they consider, rightly or wrongly, they're about to lose their job or that the work environment is toxic) probably feels they've been unfairly treated and also probably has a significant financial and personal interest in having a court declare that they were not, in fact, as incompetent or as difficult a colleague or whatever as the their former employers say was the case. So, just as I don't assume that defendants in criminal cases must be guilty because the police wouldn't go to all the trouble of arresting them without a good reason, or that they must be innocent because the police are oppressive and biased, even though both must be true in particular individual cases, I'm not intending to form any premature judgments about this matter and I would caution others against so doing, too. I have my own speculative opinions on the matter, certainly, but since I don't have any facts with which to back them up, I'm not going to try to present them as facts, and I would advise others against doing the same. Edited August 20, 2019 by Innula Zenovka 9 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clara Hollyberry Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 Nicely put, Innula. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted August 18, 2019 Author Share Posted August 18, 2019 2 hours ago, Amina Sopwith said: They're reacting to the "oh look, woman does something silly, feminism is such a crock and feminists are all ugly/stupid/irrational/man-hating-castrators-in-waiting" backdrop. I’m unable to see that backdrop here. Is it in this post, or do you mean in society, general attitudes and reactions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurshie Muromachi Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 When I see the reports provided by former employees who have worked at Linden Lab within the last year and a half, I can't help but think that there's some sort of internal issue/struggle with the Lab. Even some of the things that employees have reported have been echoed in some form or another here on the forums. I don't think the Lab is racist, but I question their integrity to be professional and team players. I agree with Innula, though. Gotta see the facts from both sides. But hey, even facts can be manipulated or deceived to be factual. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clara Hollyberry Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 Facts are facts. People can be manipulated or deceived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurshie Muromachi Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 16 minutes ago, Clarrellae said: Facts are facts. People can be manipulated or deceived. Yes, that's pretty much what I was suggesting. Facts can be falsified unless you investigate them thoroughly rather than take them at face value as factual. Falsified log entries and counterfeit money are examples. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 This thread scares me. While I'm partial to LL as a company (regarding their diversity policies and my imagined response they'd have to these issues) I would never make a final decision without more facts. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Gregoire Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 6 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said: Yep, they are female and deciding the lawsuit against another female. I"M not judging anyone. I stated an opinion Mr Judgey McJudgepants. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garnet Psaltery Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 6 hours ago, Amina Sopwith said: They're reacting to the "oh look, woman does something silly, feminism is such a crock and feminists are all ugly/stupid/irrational/man-hating-castrators-in-waiting" backdrop. Which is one reason why the backdrop creators do it. It works very well. Case in point. As an added advantage (which I do not believe the previous posters on this thread are doing), it also encourages women to do the internalised misogyny of "yes women suck, but I'm not like other women", and thus reinforcing the idea that women are all b*tchy and hate each other etc etc etc. Like I said, it works very well. Kindly don't tell me what I'm reacting to and why. I saw the woman's complaints and set them against what I know about LL. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christy Costanza Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 (edited) 20 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said: Given how diverse LL is and how supportive they have always been to things like Pride celebrations, I have a very hard time believing they would discriminate due to something like ethic background. Let me just say that majority of the world supports gay pride now but some people still have a problem accepting other races. Not saying that's the case with Linden labs though. Just thought i'd comment on that piece. Edited August 18, 2019 by FashionEye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amina Sopwith Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 5 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said: It’s all very confusing to me. When I see a story like the article in the original post, I assume it has some truth to it, the person is seeking justice, and hopefully justice will be done accordingly. I don’t assume there is an alternate narrative. I don't really assume that. I assume that someone has a case and it needs to be investigated, and hopefully on hearing the evidence, the tribunal/court will make the right decision. Obviously that won't always happen. 3 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said: I’m unable to see that backdrop here. Is it in this post, or do you mean in society, general attitudes and reactions? Well, in a non-personal attack and respectful way (because I know you're a great person) I think it is in your post. Not because you are sexist or misogynistic or anything like that - I am sure you're not - but because your post indicated a lack of awareness of how our cultural/societal perception of women influences how women react to certain things. At any rate, you noticed that it was women making the judgement, but didn't seem to offer an explanation as to why this might be. On a societal level, a lot of people react very badly to anything they perceive as "feminist" ("feminazi", anyone?), and women in general are still more likely than men to be characterised as vapid, b*tchy, jealous and all the other things. So when a woman makes a potentially dodgy claim, or even a fairly legitimate one, and you see a lot of other women quick to distance themselves, that societal/cultural perception is what they're trying to escape. Of course, what it actually does is reinforce the ideas that women dislike and distrust each other, and that sex discrimination isn't really a serious issue. This particular case might prove to be bollocks; we'll have to wait for the tribunal or court or whatever to hear the evidence and make a decision. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amina Sopwith Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 21 minutes ago, Garnet Psaltery said: Kindly don't tell me what I'm reacting to and why. I saw the woman's complaints and set them against what I know about LL. Ok, fair enough. But please allow me to explain to Love that when he sees something that looks, to him, like a lot of women jumping on another woman, there may be a slightly more complex context to it. 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted August 18, 2019 Author Share Posted August 18, 2019 21 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said: 6 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said: Yep, they are female and deciding the lawsuit against another female. I"M not judging anyone. I stated an opinion Mr Judgey McJudgepants. Hi hon! I didn’t mean you specifically, it just seemed (almost) all the replies were against the person the article was about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted August 18, 2019 Author Share Posted August 18, 2019 53 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: This thread scares me. While I'm partial to LL as a company (regarding their diversity policies and my imagined response they'd have to these issues) I would never make a final decision without more facts. I guess they are issuing opinions, sounded like they “knew” oops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted August 18, 2019 Author Share Posted August 18, 2019 5 minutes ago, Amina Sopwith said: . Not because you are sexist or misogynistic or anything like that - I am sure you're not - but because your post indicated a lack of awareness of how our cultural/societal perception of women influences how women react to certain things. At any rate, you noticed that it was women making the judgement, but didn't seem to offer an explanation as to why this might be. Merely because I mentioned it was women responding a certain way? Please forgive me if that was insensitive. I’m more of a feminist than most men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said: 56 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: This thread scares me. While I'm partial to LL as a company (regarding their diversity policies and my imagined response they'd have to these issues) I would never make a final decision without more facts. I guess they are issuing opinions, sounded like they “knew” oops. Yes, to me it appeared some were already sure. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted August 18, 2019 Author Share Posted August 18, 2019 7 minutes ago, Amina Sopwith said: So when a woman makes a potentially dodgy claim, or even a fairly legitimate one, and you see a lot of other women quick to distance themselves, that societal/cultural perception is what they're trying to escape. Well said! Sorry, I can’t multi-quote on mobile (it doesn’t work). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amina Sopwith Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 27 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said: Merely because I mentioned it was women responding a certain way? Please forgive me if that was insensitive. I’m more of a feminist than most men. I know you're great, don't worry, and I apologise if my post read as a personal attack on you - it certainly wasn't intended that way. I just wanted to offer an explanation and context for what you were seeing. (I could, at this point, go into a Gor rant, but luckily for you lot I've got plans this evening and don't have time.) If this claim is as full of s*** as people say it is (I've not read it and I don't know much about LL's history and internal workings, so I really can't say), then hopefully it will be rejected. And I am very sure that the claimant will receive a great deal of backlash for it. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Gregoire Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 (edited) 44 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said: Hi hon! I didn’t mean you specifically, it just seemed (almost) all the replies were against the person the article was about. Kind of hard to tell from that one sentence you posted but ok. I can accept that. I think you are taking it as the replies are against the person when the reality is they are against the apparent frivolousness of the lawsuit because of the results of "women who cry wolf". There was a time many years ago when I wanted, more than anything, to be able to work for LL. Over the years, I learned, from LL, that is pretty much the last place in the world I would want to work because of how they do things. There's no real structure/stability in the workplace. And those reviews Kurshie posted just confirms that. Edited August 18, 2019 by Selene Gregoire 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth Macbain Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 39 minutes ago, Amina Sopwith said: On a societal level, a lot of people react very badly to anything they perceive as "feminist" ("feminazi", anyone?), and women in general are still more likely than men to be characterised as vapid, b*tchy, jealous and all the other things. So when a woman makes a potentially dodgy claim, or even a fairly legitimate one, and you see a lot of other women quick to distance themselves, that societal/cultural perception is what they're trying to escape. Of course, what it actually does is reinforce the ideas that women dislike and distrust each other, and that sex discrimination isn't really a serious issue. On the contrary, I adore us women. We're the bomb-diggity. I love us so much that I know we are strong enough to not embarrass ourselves by filing frivolous lawsuits because we get fired. I got fired once. 15 years later, that is still hard to say. It's devastating and I was absolutely destroyed. It was completely without merit, in my opinion of course, but I pulled up my big girl panties and moved on. I badly wanted some sort of revenge or redemption, but I ultimately decided that the company wasn't worth my energy or emotional well-being. I think what leads me to believe that this lawsuit is frivolous is the fact that she went all "I'M FIGHTING THE PATRIARCHY" on Twitter as soon as she filed the suit, long before any evidence might be revealed during discovery. She could have waited, or not gone public at all and kept her personal business to herself but in my eyes she's shown her hand now, and she clearly has an agenda. She's knows damn good and well that LL cannot say anything publicly to refute her claims, but the court documents will reveal all when that time comes. By then, most people will have forgotten about this and moved on. She shot her shot now when it was safe to do so, in the court of public opinion. She wanted the hashtag fame and used every trigger word in the liberal rally cry handbook. (Before I get slammed for that, I'm so liberal that I make Bernie look conservative.) 5 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said: It’s all very confusing to me. When I see a story like the article in the original post, I assume it has some truth to it, the person is seeking justice, and hopefully justice will be done accordingly. I don’t assume there is an alternate narrative. Love, you're doing just as most people do, and that is what I find troublesome. No evidence has been presented. You are choosing to believe the woman, as we are being trained to do in the wake of the #metoo movement, and that may seem more than fair since women either weren't believed, or were shushed into submission, for the last 4.5 billion years or so. Sadly, though, that's led some less-than-scrupulous women to take advantage of that positive wave. That's what bothers me so much about this lawsuit. It doesn't pass the smell test to me when I take all her public actions and the words she and her lawyer used in the suit into consideration. I might well be wrong. 3 hours ago, Kurshie Muromachi said: When I see the reports provided by former employees who have worked at Linden Lab within the last year and a half, I can't help but think that there's some sort of internal issue/struggle with the Lab. Read the reports on pretty much any company and you'll see the same. Glassdoor is anonymous and bitter ex-employees often use it to lob grenades, and HR directors often use it to post false positive reviews to make their company look better than it is. I would take anything I read there with a grain of salt. It's the Yelp of job seekers. 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted August 18, 2019 Author Share Posted August 18, 2019 36 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said: I think you are taking it as the replies are against the person when the reality is they are against the apparent frivolousness of the lawsuit because of the results of "women who cry wolf". Well said. Not being a woman, it would not be my place to take this position, as I know many workplaces are “toxic” and I’m not a woman. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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