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5 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

There are legitimate uses for the scripting function that gives you the info, so they can't really take that function away - and thus they can't really eliminate any scripted object using the function.

I understand, my emotional response is one legacy of a very determined and technically proficient stalker who decided to make a royal pain of himself.

Mainly my resentment is directed at the Platform owner; who was singularly helpless.

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5 hours ago, kali Wylder said:

I like my friends, I just don't always feel like talking to them.

Friends? Who needs friends!

I am a rock. I am an i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-s-l-a--n-d!

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21 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

I struggle with the viewpoint that because LL decided to call it the "Friends" list, that it must literally be a list of friends or that if you get added it must literally mean that you are now a friend.  It seems ridiculous to me.  I cannot help but feel that LL called it "Friends List" to be warm, fuzzy and friendly, giving SL an approachable vibe but not necessarily to be taken so literally

yes the Friends list was initially designed to literally be a list of friends.  Calling cards were designed to be for Contacts: a phone book,  rolodex, etc

then a lot of people began using their Friends list as a Contacts list.  And so we now have multi-varied ways in which the Friends list is seen/used

now and again somebody will post their desire for the People dialog to have a Contacts tab separate from Friends tab.  Given the now varied use cases of the Friends tab then is probably some merit in this

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Mollymews said:

yes the Friends list was initially designed to literally be a list of friends.  Calling cards were designed to be for Contacts: a phone book,  rolodex, etc

Please provide details of how you know this was definitely the intention and how you know it wasn't just to give a warm fuzzy feel to SL because pointing out to calling cards doesn't clinch it for me.  I would love to know more.

If the Friends List was meant to be taken literally then why cannot it not include all your friends from other services and RL? After all friendships know no boundaries.
Clearly, the obvious answer is because you cannot do that with friends who don't have accounts.  So it isn't really a "friends" list at all, at best it is "SL friends" and so we find immediately they aren't like "RL friends", they are different.  Why? because in essence this list boils down to the fact that it is really just "a quick list of avatars I can also grant extra permissions to over my location, status and stuff" and nothing more.  Doesn't sounds like it exclusively relates to friends to me.

You see how this falls down with being too literal?

This is why it seemed more like they wanted SL to seem to be a friendly place where "everyone meets new friends in ten seconds or less" but in reality probably never gave it a huge amount of thought.  In essence a naivety, a pleasant fantasy but not really reality.  Please don't misunderstand me, people do have friends in SL, real friends and real relationships.  They happen because of people though and isn't enhanced much if at all by the friends list.  People know who their real friends are without needing a list and people who want to grant those permissions, do so for a wide range of purposes. A quick list is handy for IMs, etc. but is also handy for all kinds of people you somehow need to contact.  None of this infers or makes people in those lists friends by definition.

On the subject of calling cards, they are not represented anything like a contact list or phone book and rolodex rolled around as a carousel.  They are represented as something you carry and store individually not collectively such as a items in a list or book and they don't have an carousel-like behaviour.  So if being like those things were what calling cards was really about then it failed really hard and instead captured the archaic form of calling cards as a loose collection of cards you gave and received when you visited or had visitors.  It represents a way that nobody collected and carried around the contact details of their RL friends even when SL was new.  Archaic.

3 hours ago, Mollymews said:

now and again somebody will post their desire for the People dialog to have a Contacts tab separate from Friends tab.  Given the now varied use cases of the Friends tab then is probably some merit in this

I meant my suggestion of Contacts as a replacement, not in addition to.  I think that adding both would be a mistake and I have changed my mind about calling it "Contacts".  My opinion after further thought is that it should just be called "Quick List".  If we were to go down the route of multiple lists then I would want to create as many lists as I want and give them my own titles.  That might be good for managing SL businesses but I expect most people don't need them.

Edited by Gabriele Graves

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On 8/12/2019 at 4:09 PM, Beth Macbain said:

I "hide" from people all the time. Sometimes I just wish to not be disturbed. Why do some find that so offensive? Yes, I use the auto-respond sometimes, too, but then I feel guilty if someone does IM me and I don't answer. It's just easier to hide everyone on my list for a little while... it doesn't mean I don't have the nerve to defriend them or anything of the sort. Making that assumption is dangerous and you may well lose very good friends over it. 

No one is obligated to let anyone know when they're in SL, same in RL when I'm not obligated to tell anyone where I am all the time, nor do I have to answer a phone call or a text immediately. 

If it bothers you so much and you believe someone is hiding from you, instead of making assumptions be an adult and communicate your concerns to them. 

Wow I SO agree on this one. Sometimes you just want to be left in peace and quiet. And there are people who really don't respect that, and who will keep IMing even if you have a friendly auto response saying you are busy. So what if someone is not willing to jump every time you shoot them an IM? Wow. If that is a reason to "nuke" a person from their friends list, then good riddance.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Gabriele Graves said:

it is "SL friends" ...

... collection of cards you gave and received when you visited or had visitors ...

I meant my suggestion of Contacts as a replacement, not in addition to.  I think that adding both would be a mistake and I have changed my mind about calling it "Contacts".  My opinion after further thought is that it should just be called "Quick List".

If we were to go down the route of multiple lists then I would want to create as many lists as I want and give them my own titles.  That might be good for managing SL businesses but I expect most people don't need them.

yes, SL friends 

SL calling cards are in the Calling cards inventory folder. The process is automated. A calling card of a person who Offers us is placed in the Calling card folder. When they accept our calling card is placed in their folder and theirs in ours.  When we Add Friend, their card is automatically placed in our Friends \ All sub-folder and our card in theirs

the purpose of the automated system calling cards of non-friends, was so that we have a quick way of finding again a person we had a previous contact/IM with. Quick meaning not having to find the person again in Search

and with the original viewer Version 1.0 we could also right click on a avatar and Offer them our calling card from the menu, in addition to Add Friend

when viewer V2.x was introduced the right-click menu option Offer was removed

the IM calling card automated process still works as it was intended too.  And is for this reason that I only have 1 SL friend on my Friends list. Everybody else I care to retain as a SL contact, SL provider, SL acquaintance, SL somebody I know, etc, is in my Calling cards folder. As I am in theirs, should they have chosen to not delete my card. Like those who have, I also purge my calling cards at times, keeping only those I know I will contact again at some time

SL knows who my SL Friends are. It also knows who my SL Contacts (Calling cards) are. The whole thing is tucked away in Inventory.  The initial thought was that the existing system could be surfaced in the People dialog

I think also there is some further merit in what you are suggesting. Were it to be surfaced, being able to catergorise our SL contacts in the People dialog would be quite good 

 

 

Edited by Mollymews
changed friend > offers

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4 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

yes, SL friends 

SL calling cards are in the Calling cards inventory folder. The process is automated. A calling card of a person who IM's us is placed in the Calling card folder. When we reply to the IM, our calling card is placed in their folder.  When we Add Friend, their card is automatically placed in our Friends \ All sub-folder and our card in theirs

the purpose of the automated system calling cards of non-friends, was so that we have a quick way of finding again a person we had a previous contact/IM with. Quick meaning not having to find the person again in Search

and with the original viewer Version 1.0 we could also right click on a avatar and Offer them our calling card from the menu, in addition to Add Friend

when viewer V2.x was introduced the right-click menu option Offer was removed

the IM calling card automated process still works as it was intended too.  And is for this reason that I only have 1 SL friend on my Friends list. Everybody else I care to retain as a SL contact, SL provider, SL acquaintance, SL somebody I know, etc, is in my Calling cards folder. As I am in theirs, should they have chosen to not delete my card. Like those who have, I also purge my calling cards at times, keeping only those I know I will contact again at some time

SL knows who my SL Friends are. It also knows who my SL Contacts (Calling cards) are. The whole thing is tucked away in Inventory.  The initial thought was that the existing system could be surfaced in the People dialog

I think also there is some further merit in what you are suggesting. Were it to be surfaced, being able to catergorise our SL contacts would be quite good 

 

 

I am already well aware of how the list and calling cards work in detail and it's history back to at least when I started in 2007.  Describing to me in detail how those mechanisms work says nothing really about the intentions behind it.  That way is only accepting what is presented at its face value.  User interfaces are mostly about approximations, concepts and abstractions.  Mostly this is trying to express functionality in ways that are simple, easy-to-use, implementable, understandable and gives the feature the desired look and feel.  It is rarely about being literal.  It feels like you misunderstood something fundamental about my point of view.

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Just now, Gabriele Graves said:

Mostly this is trying to express functionality in ways that are simple, easy-to-use, implementable, understandable and gives the feature the desired look and feel.  It is rarely about being literal.  It feels like you misunderstood something fundamental about my point of view.

i didn't misunderstand. I accepted your understanding of what a friend is, in the context of SL.  "yes, SL friends"

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9 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Please provide details of how you know this was definitely the intention and how you know it wasn't just to give a warm fuzzy feel to SL because pointing out to calling cards doesn't clinch it for me.  I would love to know more.

Would someone who has been in SL since year 2 be proof enough? Because what Molly said is true. Calling cards were intended to be handed out to those you were not ready to friend yet or wanted to get to know before adding as friend. It was a means of contact between two strangers who had friendship potential or as business contacts since it would be years before any TPVs and the ability to create contact sets. I was here then and that is how it was in 2004.

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12 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Would someone who has been in SL since year 2 be proof enough? Because what Molly said is true. Calling cards were intended to be handed out to those you were not ready to friend yet or wanted to get to know before adding as friend. It was a means of contact between two strangers who had friendship potential or as business contacts since it would be years before any TPVs and the ability to create contact sets. I was here then and that is how it was in 2004.

Ditto this. I will often decline a friendship request when asked and offer my calling card (yes, really) because it's like "letting them down softly"; likes it's not a "hard no". Calling cards are also useful to drop into notecards.

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6 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

I will often decline a friendship request when asked and offer my calling card (yes, really) because it's like "letting them down softly"; likes it's not a "hard no". Calling cards are also useful to drop into notecards.

I do this, especially with noobs (as I think I've already mentioned).

I also have a male friend (actually, an ex) who likes to fill me in on his ever-changing and somewhat tumultuous love life. (He's not being passive-aggressive: he sort of wants advice. Which he then ignores.) Having calling cards representing the members of his ever-changing cast of gfs helps me keep track of who the hell he's talking about now.

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2 hours ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Would someone who has been in SL since year 2 be proof enough? Because what Molly said is true. Calling cards were intended to be handed out to those you were not ready to friend yet or wanted to get to know before adding as friend. It was a means of contact between two strangers who had friendship potential or as business contacts since it would be years before any TPVs and the ability to create contact sets. I was here then and that is how it was in 2004.

No not really because it was still exactly like this in 2007 as well.  As I said previously, all that shows is how they presented it, which could show an intention of wanting SL to seem like a friendly place and not that the list should literally taken as just for friends and nothing but friends, whatever that means in an SL context, as was claimed.  That is why I asked for more to back up claims about intention.  Really only LL staff from around that time could definitely say whether it was meant to be literal or whether it was an attempt to present in a friendly way.

I think I have been around these trees enough now and if it still not understood what I am trying to say then it is probably best call it done and move on because my starting opinion wasn't really that big a deal.

 

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1 hour ago, Gabriele Graves said:

No not really because it was still exactly like this in 2007 as well.  As I said previously, all that shows is how they presented it, which could show an intention of wanting SL to seem like a friendly place and not that the list should literally taken as just for friends and nothing but friends, whatever that means in an SL context, as was claimed.  That is why I asked for more to back up claims about intention.  Really only LL staff from around that time could definitely say whether it was meant to be literal or whether it was an attempt to present in a friendly way.

I think I have been around these trees enough now and if it still not understood what I am trying to say then it is probably best call it done and move on because my starting opinion wasn't really that big a deal.

 

It was never "presented" by LL to begin with. It is how people used it. It is still used in the same way by many. LL's intentions don't make much difference, if any, in how people use features. Don't want to add someone to your friends list but want to be able to easily stay in contact? Use a calling card. It is as simple as that. It's called personal choice. The individual chooses how to use their contacts/friends lists, not LL. LL merely provided the options.

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On ‎8‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 10:09 AM, Beth Macbain said:

I "hide" from people all the time. Sometimes I just wish to not be disturbed. Why do some find that so offensive? Yes, I use the auto-respond sometimes, too, but then I feel guilty if someone does IM me and I don't answer. It's just easier to hide everyone on my list for a little while... it doesn't mean I don't have the nerve to defriend them or anything of the sort. Making that assumption is dangerous and you may well lose very good friends over it. 

hugs hugs hugs ,,,,  i do the same thing,,,,  there are times that i just need to work on something  and just be alone , there will be times i am working on something  and so involved i even forget the real world time  and when you are trying to learn how to do something  learning mesh is not so easy   so stretching prims   making something  is like a squishy stress ball  and helps  ,,  hugs hugs hugs to everyone ,,, i look at it this way ,,,,, remember when you arrived home from school and no going out to play until your homework and chores were done ,,, well   sorry gang ,,,, got homework  cannot come out to play today   that is my away message ,,,, wink hugs

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I've been doing a lot of scripting work lately, and I'm visibly in world when I do it. I have a workshop, and I use it as a workshop. That seems appropriate. I have a builder's yard out back for big stuff like escalators. Sometimes people stop by while I'm working and I stop what I'm doing to talk to them.

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10 hours ago, Selene Gregoire said:

It was never "presented" by LL to begin with. It is how people used it. It is still used in the same way by many. LL's intentions don't make much difference, if any, in how people use features. Don't want to add someone to your friends list but want to be able to easily stay in contact? Use a calling card. It is as simple as that. It's called personal choice. The individual chooses how to use their contacts/friends lists, not LL. LL merely provided the options.

yes

what I should have said to Gabriele was that I take it literally.  Friends (meaning actual friend who I am always available too) get added to my Friends list. Everybody else I file in my  Calling cards folder. I do this because the label on the tab says Friends

 

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10 hours ago, Selene Gregoire said:

It was never "presented" by LL to begin with. It is how people used it. It is still used in the same way by many.

I am well aware that many use it this way still.  That is not the point.  By "presented" I mean the language and terminology used in the user interface which I talked about in a previous post in this topic.

10 hours ago, Selene Gregoire said:

LL's intentions don't make much difference, if any, in how people use features.

I disagree, some people are more literal and tend to take things more literally and at face value, others not so much and decide for themselves how they will perceive things.

On 8/14/2019 at 6:14 PM, Gabriele Graves said:

I cannot help but feel that LL called it "Friends List" to be warm, fuzzy and friendly, giving SL an approachable vibe but not necessarily to be taken so literally.

Should have been taken as a harmless speculative comment about a fleeting thought and yet it was enough to elicit a response of an assumed air of authority based on seemingly nothing more than taking what was in the UI literally and at face value to mean that the original intention that it was supposed to be taken literally and at face value.  Surprise, this is not a convincing argument.  So I questioned that because it was relevant to me to know if it was any real authority behind that response.

So then I get the a lesson about how it all works, not about how why it should be perceived literally, just about how it works.  How it works doesn't matter to me because a) the point of my post wasn't about how it worked and b) everything posted I already know as should most who have been around SL for a good length of time.  I'll state it again, my speculative statement was because at that point I was mildly interested in the original intention behind the terminology and presentation choices which can shape perception and usage for some - a vastly different thing to how it works.
 

10 hours ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Don't want to add someone to your friends list but want to be able to easily stay in contact? Use a calling card. It is as simple as that. It's called personal choice. The individual chooses how to use their contacts/friends lists, not LL. LL merely provided the options.

Thanks, I already know these things too.  It would be amazing if, after all this time in SL, I didn't.  The responses to the post that started this nosedive show how both of you missed my point by miles.  That's OK, sometimes we cannot communicate what is in our heads clearly enough or it is not received the way we imagined and the topic goes awry.

So maybe we just let it drop hmmm? because I don't think we are going to pull up in time.

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I am still amazed, after all these years, how the Friends List can evoke such passionate debate, even off-world. It's just a list people. It's really not all that important. LOL

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9 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

both of you missed my point by miles.

No, I didn't miss your point but obviously mine went way over your head. I suppose LL could rename it to Aquaintances List to make you happy. 9_9

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11 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

No, I didn't miss your point but obviously mine went way over your head. I suppose LL could rename it to Aquaintances List to make you happy. 9_9

You have no idea about my point, just suggesting that rename proves how much you missed it.

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19 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

You have no idea about my point, just suggesting that rename proves how much you missed it.

Oh so you are a mind reader and know what I'm thinking. Now where did I put that tin foil.

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1 minute ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Oh so you are a mind reader and know what I'm thinking. Now where did I put that tin foil.

No, that is what you think, not what I think.  I do know what I meant by my posts though and what you wrote showed me that you didn't "get it" or do you get to tell me what I meant now?

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On ‎8‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 12:58 PM, Gabriele Graves said:

No, that is what you think, not what I think.  I do know what I meant by my posts though and what you wrote showed me that you didn't "get it" or do you get to tell me what I meant now?

ok  a bit of  whos on first  not taking it lightly ,,,,,,  people all have their own perceptions of what is friendship and their own meaning of the word. One size does not filt all . There may are usually different emotional levels involded in each individual  own personal friendship garden.   I do understand what you mean  and not eveyone is going to be  besties of friends. My list is short as i spend most of my time working onand or   learning and making little things.  I think that if one understand the basis of why each one is here  and the individual personal boundaries everyone has it saves a lot of emotional heartache.  HUGS HUGS HUGS ,,,,  

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Recently I had someone go hiding on me while I was in an IM with them, even removing me from their friend's list. They are regulars in my friend's live music venue and I was just saying hi. When I checked the group list they were still online. Due to RL reasons I was out of SL for a week or so, but returned to enjoy a singer and they were there and denied they removed me from the friend's list. Anyway I'm not in SL for the drama, but to have fun and enjoy live music.

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29 minutes ago, Karen Svenska said:

Recently I had someone go hiding on me while I was in an IM with them, even removing me from their friend's list. They are regulars in my friend's live music venue and I was just saying hi. When I checked the group list they were still online. Due to RL reasons I was out of SL for a week or so, but returned to enjoy a singer and they were there and denied they removed me from the friend's list. Anyway I'm not in SL for the drama, but to have fun and enjoy live music.

Sounds like all is good then.

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