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Reasons Why RP sims fail.

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31 minutes ago, Sukubia Scarmon said:

 "Won't play with that character anymore when you join *that* guild, even though I really enjoy playing with you." I told her that's childish and moved on - because ultimately, it's their loss, never mine. 

Yep!  I love your response.  Their loss indeed.

I share your idea that a clique has positives and negatives.  The unpredictability of people can be challenging.  Meeting new people is always a joy to me; but there simply must be boundaries when dealing with online strangers.  

Tribal arbitrary flag colours like guild membership, I don't see that as a boundary obstructing RP; if anything it should enrich it.  I erect boundaries instead against cruelty or bullying or other sundry unwarranted hostilities. Person by person, not character by character.

My RP group doesn't use the group as a force for putting people down or parading around what we have among have-nots.  We keep to ourselves and feel good about not contributing to other people's bad experiences.  

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I've been to many RP sims on second life, I believe why many RP sims fail is because there is no immersion.

1) Island RP sims suck. The reason why Gor took off is because of CONTINENTS. Which are multiple sims connected that creates Immersion.

2.) RP sim needs a decent meter. Now combat meters can make a or break a RP community. For example, if it has crafting to make supplies such as dynamite for RP heists like the wild west meter does then you're on to something good. However,  most meters I see get created or used are the camping sim LVLing meters like XCS. Or buggy like the Amazon's meter.

Of course I can point out the other stuff like needing good RPer's. However, for me I prefer massive amount of full regions connected together, with a Pretty fun combat system on the side. Pointless long Paragraph rp can get quite boring with no big fights for immersion.

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I only worked in Family RP sims that where modern themed. I think back to many years ago to a very successful sim i was in. I had just got my foot in the door being a RP police chief. The owner sat me down and she explained to me the "image" she wanted for the force. She wanted it to look roughly like new york but with our own twist. She wanted the atmosphere to be that of a small town sheriff who people can talk too and openly work with. I was not told how to execute this just the overall idea and image, I myself executed the construction of this department and to this day i will say it was one of the best sims and experiences i ever had. There where two key factors that i feel made it so great, first off no micro-management which lead to people being very creative and immersed in their own creativity. They felt a sense of pride and accomplishment because it was them and the community who brought something together. The residents where proud of what came of the community efforts. Secondly outstanding leadership, from the EM's to individual RP department leaders where not only dedicated but understood what the tone of the community was with the owner "guiding" what they wanted. There was no favoritism, people did not become leaders because of who they dated or whos family they where in. I would still be there today but real life called not only for the owners but a good chunk of the dedicated leaders, it happens most of us spent 2 or 3 years there. Everyone was sad to see it go and to this day many of those pictures are on my wall to remind me of my roots. I do the same job to this day but now on mainland and i carry on the same overall trends i learned there and its never failed me or the communities i serve.

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6 hours ago, Haselden said:

1) Island RP sims suck. The reason why Gor took off is because of CONTINENTS. Which are multiple sims connected that creates Immersion.

Gor took off in SL because many moved here from AW in 2003/4. They were pizzed at AW because they were letting people fight back to get rid of Gor in AW. Not because continents. How I do know? I was there and witnessed it happen.

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On 9/10/2019 at 11:58 PM, Sukubia Scarmon said:

I think cliques are a two sided sword.

I've done mostly walk-up RP in WoW, I know it's ups and downs quite well - I understand the need to keep people out of your roleplay because they could potentially ruin everything. There are many different approaches to RP, and not all of them are compatible with each other. Ignorance about that from one or both parties can lead to a lot of grief and drama, that is what most cliques try to keep out. The unpredictability of people you do not know.

On the other side, I've been ignored by cliques, and I've been ignored because I belonged to the wrong guilds. I even got told with some character that the person who played with me for a little while "Won't play with that character anymore when you join *that* guild, even though I really enjoy playing with you." I told her that's childish and moved on - because ultimately, it's their loss, never mine. 

That crap is why I quit WOW. I used to belong to the top-rated Alliance guild in my server but when the guild leader left and was replaced by a 16-year-old idiot, suddenly the guild's performance and repuation plummeted to nothing and that was exactly the reaction I got when I tried to join other guilds or team up with other players. 

Most of the other guilds I found were also run by 16-year-old idiots and that was when I realised I was far too old for WOW.

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5 hours ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Gor took off in SL because many moved here from AW in 2003/4. They were pizzed at AW because they were letting people fight back to get rid of Gor in AW. Not because continents. How I do know? I was there and witnessed it happen.

Nah, it took off because of continents and a decent meter. Many people I met in SL didn't even know what gor was until they started playing here. It could be the same for many RP communities. If only they created something similar.

http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Thassainsel/152/23/23

http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Mirkwood Forest/206/105/2609

These two continents still have 7+ full regions connected. However, before I started playing I heard there were 20+ to 30+ full regions all connected.

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8 minutes ago, Haselden said:

Nah, it took off because of continents and a decent meter. Many people I met in SL didn't even know what gor was until they started playing here. It could be the same for many RP communities. If only they created something similar.

http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Thassainsel/152/23/23

http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Mirkwood Forest/206/105/2609

These two continents still have 7+ full regions connected. However, before I started playing I heard there were 20+ to 30+ full regions all connected.

Oh so you were in Active Worlds for several years before SL ever even existed as I was. 

Nope. Sorry. Not buying it. I know better. Gor got its start in SL because people from AW brought it here. Full stop. I know because I was involved in it. It damn near ended my RL relationship that is now going on 20 years.

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On 9/12/2019 at 4:34 PM, Haselden said:

1) Island RP sims suck. The reason why Gor took off is because of CONTINENTS. Which are multiple sims connected that creates Immersion.

Other genres of RP use connected sims too, like GoT and pirate/merfolk sims with ocean between for sailing. Probably others too but those are a few sorts I played at.

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On 8/11/2019 at 5:00 PM, RaeLeeH said:

but I do think there's an onus of responsibility that lies with all invested parties, not just the sim owner, sim staff, or builder, but the player and visitors too.

Very well put as are your other points, as an ex role-play sim owner that did fail, well if we are deeming lack of numbers as failure, that is, not that I was bothered because I could afford it at the time, but the article at the start is putting too much onus on the sim owner being the responsible party for failure. I hope to return my sim someday when I can afford it again, which is why this article interested me. I made mistakes for sure, I don't deny that, but it was my first role-play sim, so that was to be expected, but equally the people who came along did not do their part, most expected me to wave some magic wand and produce other players, but weren't themselves committed enough to stick around and wait for other players to arrive, but beyond advertising, which I was already doing, there was no real practical advise on improving numbers from others. Then you have those who expect a sim to be tailored to their specific wants, taking suggestions on board is one thing and I did take suggestions on board and even action any I agreed with, but pandering is a different matter altogether.

My biggest mistake was trying to do too much myself, however it is hard to find admins who don't have their own agenda or don't want to interfere with the build. I had a single vision for how I wanted the sim to look and just didn't want others interfering in the building aspect, I was learning and I learn through trial and error. Second to that, how do you verify the experience of someone claiming to have admin experience? How do you ensure, for that matter, that you don't end up with someone who is draconian?

There will never be any one size fits all guide to running a role-play sim, I hope to learn from my past mistakes when re-opening, but I have a feeling there will always be headaches and often wonder if it is worth those headaches. That said, I promised the users I did have, that I would return it as soon as it was financially viable to do so and I am a man of my word. I personally think a few regular users makes it worth while, numbers be damned. If that makes it a failure, who cares, I don't, all the time I can afford it.

My favourite part of the article "As an owner, I am an SL aristrocrat." Does anyone think that way? Since he made of point of stating his experience, I am guessing he did at some point, but that has never been my attitude, not from the time I had my first piece of land. Sure as sim owner, the build was my baby and I didn't want interference in the build, but I never considered myself somehow special. I was always pleasant and happy to talk with anyone who came along and when time permitted role-play with them. There were falling outs (or is it fallings out?), but only if people were trying to impose their ideas on me opposed to just making suggestions or offering critique. Of course this attitude that you must spend 2-3 hours on sim a day and be rp ready is daft, well aside from being present, I was there more often than that, but if you have a role-play sim, you don't want to be in a situation where people only come along, just to role-play with you. Between constantly improving the build and sorting out any issues role-players were having with one another, I actually found myself having very little time for role-play itself anyway.

Anyway, interesting subject, but too one sided and perhaps based too much on one person's experience.

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55 minutes ago, Frank Ziplon said:

 as an ex role-play sim owner

is always good for me to hear about the experiences that region owners have had. What worked for them, what didn't, what could on reflection been done differently, what they would not do differently, etc. I learn things from this. So thanks

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30 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

is always good for me to hear about the experiences that region owners have had. What worked for them, what didn't, what could on reflection been done differently, what they would not do differently, etc. I learn things from this. So thanks

You are welcome :) It is a hard haul first time round, but my main advise to anyone new opening a sim is, so long as you yourself are getting some kind of pleasure from your build, it is in no way a failure, it might be a failure in the eyes of others, if numbers aren't turning up, but I think a few dedicated players are more worth while than a few dozen who only turn up now and again. There was a time, when I was grieving a loss in real life, the headaches were getting too much to bare, however, overall I have no regrets and look forward to affording a full region again.

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I just wanted to take this point up as I missed it in my previous response.

"Excessive IC nastiness should be good cause for a character withdrawing ICly from an interchange and avoiding that character. IC nastiness about beliefs or LGBTQ issues can go bad and OOC very fast. Sometimes people play a hateful character because that is how they really feel in RL"

Firstly, what actually qualifies as excessive IC nastiness? I am glad you said "Sometimes" in the second half of the statement, but it is actually more the case that it happens so rarely, it wasn't worth mentioning.

Now I play some pretty vile characters, I wouldn't say I am ever excessive in my nastiness, but excess is a matter of opinion, I certainly have a statement where any of my characters are involved, that if another role-player feels I have gone too far in character, to contact me OOC and I will tone things down. To simply state that nasty characters should be avoided, is silly. Aside from in a family sim where for the most part you expect everybody to behave pleasantly, having a nasty character in a role-play sim shakes things up, anybody who wants to role-play in a sim where only the most pleasant of people exist, is either not looking for realism or has a pretty unrealistic idea of what happens in the real world. Of course in this instance, I am speaking mainly of urban scenes. I've never had any problems to date, but I would suggest that if you have experienced problems at any time, it will be because of inexperienced role-players who cannot discern between in-character and out of character interactions and they are taking personal offence, where none is intended. In my experience, most role-players know that you are not the character you are playing, regardless of how terrible that character is.

Rarely, will someone play a nasty character simply to vent some underlying real life hatred or anger. I like to play characters that are so far removed from who I am in real life, because it adds that extra challenge in the writing, after all, who wants to play their everyday nice self, what would be point of that, it wouldn't really be role-playing at all. So my characters are usually opposite to me both in sexuality and personality.

I don't think many people will be so psychologically damaged in real life, that they would be using role-play in the manner you suggest, certainly I've only ever come across a couple of particularly disturbed people in all my years on Second Life. So telling people to avoid nasty characters, or characters which you deem to be behaving excessively nasty, isn't of any help at all, as what you might consider excess, most might expect from such a character.

Having read your message in more detail, I think you must have had a pretty dire role-play experience or a horrible time as a role-play sim owner, but your experience will probably differ from the experiences of others, my time as a sim owner was far from perfect and had its headaches for sure, but it certainly hasn't influenced me into the kind of beliefs you have.

I am certain that you feel you are helping with your advice and for sure some of it is good, but you make so many blanket statements in other areas, it will help nobody looking for useful information.

Edited by Frank Ziplon
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On 9/12/2019 at 11:06 AM, Daedaelus Xorbun said:

I only worked in Family RP sims that where modern themed. I think back to many years ago to a very successful sim i was in. I had just got my foot in the door being a RP police chief. The owner sat me down and she explained to me the "image" she wanted for the force. She wanted it to look roughly like new york but with our own twist. She wanted the atmosphere to be that of a small town sheriff who people can talk too and openly work with. I was not told how to execute this just the overall idea and image, I myself executed the construction of this department and to this day i will say it was one of the best sims and experiences i ever had. There where two key factors that i feel made it so great, first off no micro-management which lead to people being very creative and immersed in their own creativity. They felt a sense of pride and accomplishment because it was them and the community who brought something together. The residents where proud of what came of the community efforts. Secondly outstanding leadership, from the EM's to individual RP department leaders where not only dedicated but understood what the tone of the community was with the owner "guiding" what they wanted. There was no favoritism, people did not become leaders because of who they dated or whos family they where in. I would still be there today but real life called not only for the owners but a good chunk of the dedicated leaders, it happens most of us spent 2 or 3 years there. Everyone was sad to see it go and to this day many of those pictures are on my wall to remind me of my roots. I do the same job to this day but now on mainland and i carry on the same overall trends i learned there and its never failed me or the communities i serve.

This was nice read, I've mentioned in another post, that I've never done family role-play, the main reason being, people are always telling me that family role-players take things too seriously, in that any relationships formed are considered to extend to real life. Now I've had characters that have married and there have been pregnancies, but for me, it's just the character, I myself as the role-player do not consider myself an involved party, I am just the narrator.

I am curious, considering your experience, do people take family role-play so seriously that the lines between role-play and real life do become blurred, or am I being misinformed.

Don't get me wrong, none of my current characters would ever fit into a family sim, I doubt, but I am a little curious whether or not it would be worth creating a character, that would.

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Rp sims also fail because some will go and RP and often times there are “cliques” among the roleplayers in the sim so new players can’t play and they leave

Edited by ballparkdogg
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19 hours ago, ballparkdogg said:

Rp sims also fail because some will go and RP and often times there are “cliques” among the roleplayers in the sim so new players can’t play and they leave

This is so true, cliques can be a very major issue. I did discourage having them on my sim, but of course you can't dictate to people what they can do. I advised that if you do not wish to role-play with someone, at least use a post in role-play as the means to indicate this, rather than just ignoring them. I do have my role-play friends, whom I will always role-play with no matter what, but on the flip side, I always make it clear, that provided I am not role-playing in a private area, anybody is welcome to post themselves in without asking permission and if I am in a private area, just drop me an IM and I will be glad to role-play with that person another time. There is also the problem of character compatibility, sometimes one character just won't be reasonably compatible with another character for role-play because of the character traits. This is why although generally most of my characters are bad characters, they have differences, by which that if one character is incompatible with somebody else's character, I will likely have another, that is compatible. I personally loathe exclusion of others, even those deemed as bad role-players.

I certainly don't understand hardcore cliques, that is people, who simply won't role-play with anyone other than those in their clique. This is a form of snobbery, which in the end, only harms themselves because they will usually be missing out on getting to know a new and very good role-player.

Unfortunately, cliques will always exist and there is no way for sim owners to prevent them, but I totally agree that they do a lot a harm in terms of keeping newcomers on sim.

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I was a bad cop in the sim i was in and tried to RP with new people that I saw.  It was modern roleplay in a corrupt crime ridden city and adult rated.  As for new players if your avatar was a girl you could get roleplay faster than a guy  

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14 hours ago, Frank Ziplon said:

This is so true, cliques can be a very major issue. I did discourage having them on my sim, but of course you can't dictate to people what they can do. I advised that if you do not wish to role-play with someone, at least use a post in role-play as the means to indicate this, rather than just ignoring them. I do have my role-play friends, whom I will always role-play with no matter what, but on the flip side, I always make it clear, that provided I am not role-playing in a private area, anybody is welcome to post themselves in without asking permission and if I am in a private area, just drop me an IM and I will be glad to role-play with that person another time. There is also the problem of character compatibility, sometimes one character just won't be reasonably compatible with another character for role-play because of the character traits. This is why although generally most of my characters are bad characters, they have differences, by which that if one character is incompatible with somebody else's character, I will likely have another, that is compatible. I personally loathe exclusion of others, even those deemed as bad role-players.

I certainly don't understand hardcore cliques, that is people, who simply won't role-play with anyone other than those in their clique. This is a form of snobbery, which in the end, only harms themselves because they will usually be missing out on getting to know a new and very good role-player.

Unfortunately, cliques will always exist and there is no way for sim owners to prevent them, but I totally agree that they do a lot a harm in terms of keeping newcomers on sim.

The only thing to do would be try and designate some players as mentors to roleplay or attempt rp with new players

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15 hours ago, Frank Ziplon said:

This is so true, cliques can be a very major issue.

It's only one side of the coin. AFK-campers are the flip-side of the same coin. Together they drag role-play regions down and down, and down some more, until the fizzle into irrelevance because the old role-players have become bored and left and newcomers see nothing there but what appears to be bots or otherwise inaccessible others.

When I ran a role-play region (successful for three years then I handed it off to a friend, dunno after that) - we have a basic rule: one and only one bot that auto-invited vendor-rentors to the vendors group and no others. We also never allowed AFK-campers - if an avatar didn't move after 30 minutes, they were ejected (unless communicating with mods that they will return and longer time is desired). We also created every location on the region to be at ground-level and though a door could be locked, was always pickable and accessible.

The "city" design was also optimized for role-play: the entire "city" area used no more than 1/4 of the region, and it was specifically designed so there was only one main community (public) area, all others were "faction homes", etc. Thus, everyone always gravitated to the very large community or public area and so active role-play was always happening. This way, if you see dots on the map you always know they are living, breathing people and generally accessible for role-play.

I have YET to see a role-play-themed region *anywhere* designed that way; designed for genuine role-play. Most are just giant decorative places with people scattered all over the place, most never really interacting with others.

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11 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

I have YET to see a role-play-themed region *anywhere* designed that way; designed for genuine role-play. Most are just giant decorative places with people scattered all over the place, most never really interacting with others.

Sad but true. 😢

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On 9/3/2019 at 11:42 PM, IsabelCorrigan said:

...I will tell you of the cardinal sins of SL RP. There are four of them, and there is not a SINGLE SIM that does not suffer from one or all of them; and one is all it takes to kill RP. They are tavern syndrome, GM dependency, irrational grief-phobia, and conflict avoidance.

Me: There's a reason everyone talks sh*t on D&D games that begin with 'you all start in a tavern', but at least there you've got a DM to actually make things happen and move stuff along.

Me: GM dependency means that, unless a GM is on and active, you might as well not even bother going to the SIM because you'll probably just end up... guess where! It starts with a 'T' and ends with an 'avern.' No one really shows much initiative or proactiveness in RP anymore. No one has any ideas so they stand around waiting for one to walk up to them. That's why most RP SIMs are avatar parking lots.

Me: Irrational grief-phobia is mostly aimed at RP SIMs that don't allow rezzing. Griefing would totally be a valid concern. If it were 2012. No one cares about SL anymore. There are RP SIMs with 30k+ traffic that allow open rezzing and they're totally fine. The sky is not raining Marios. Everyone is not exploding. When you don't allow rezzing, all you're doing is limiting your RPers. This actively contributes to tavern syndrome and characters not wandering around, because they HAVE to go to those specific spots because that's where the interactables were placed.

THIS! So. Much. THIS!

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I have a few questions about Gor RP.

1) Why do men wear skirts in Gor?

2) Do they also wear panties under the skirt, or are they going commando?

3) If they are going commando, aren’t they worried about getting their balls chopped off during a sword fight?

4) Shouldn’t they at least wear a cup?

5) Why are women always pouring drinks in Gor?

Thanks much in advance for your response.

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10 hours ago, Dada Beck said:

I have a few questions about Gor RP.

1) Why do men wear skirts in Gor?

 

They're Gorean.

 

10 hours ago, Dada Beck said:

2) Do they also wear panties under the skirt, or are they going commando?

 

It's the first one.

 

10 hours ago, Dada Beck said:

3) If they are going commando, aren’t they worried about getting their balls chopped off during a sword fight?

 

No. I don't have to worry about it either, for the same reason.

 

10 hours ago, Dada Beck said:

4) Shouldn’t they at least wear a cup?

 

An egg cup will more than suffice.

 

10 hours ago, Dada Beck said:

5) Why are women always pouring drinks in Gor?

 

Because there's usually feck all else to do, and it's infinitely more enjoyable and satisfying than the average Gorean sexual encounter. Recent studies have categorically proven that 98% of them don't know what to do and the remaining 2% still couldn't find the c******* if they were guided there by Sir Ranulph Fiennes.

Though this reminds me of a funny story from my time there. I was in a tavern once and, most unusually, there were about five or six free people and only one kajagoogoo on shift. She must have been thrilled not to have to sit around for hours in an empty sim waiting for someone to come along and order a pint, as many of them did (because that's the kind of red-hot, sexually magnetic honey you tend to get there). Anyway, she should have been in her element, but unfortunately she was so busy para-emoting about how the light was bouncing off her hair and the sound of her bells and silks and all that stuff that she wasn't paying attention to the drinks order and kept screwing it up. One Gorean Master in particular became extremely put out by this, and it ended up in the most glorious OOC, double-bracketed bunfight ever to grace open chat. I wish I'd saved it. 

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On 9/15/2019 at 10:35 PM, ballparkdogg said:

Rp sims also fail because some will go and RP and often times there are “cliques” among the roleplayers in the sim so new players can’t play and they leave

Yes indeed. Made me leave a few role playing sims because of that crap. I know a lot of role players who are tired of  the Cliques and the fact is, its getting worse when the admins/mods do nothing about it. It like they are killing their own sim when they don't address the issue. And I know they see it happening. The problem is most ( Not all. Don't come for me) role-play sim owners are just making these sims for Cash cow purposes instead of for a decent role play community. Instead of caring for the donations they put in your sim.. care about role-players themselves, especially the new comers. And get rid of Clique for god sake..it's just a breeding ground for toxic role players.

Clique creates gossip, 

Gossip creates rumors,

Rumors create drama,

Drama creates Toxic-role players

Toxic-role players  drives other role-players away.  Do they get it now?

Edited by Minx Kurosawa
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The one sim I roleplayed in I got very little roleplay even from the roleplayers designated as mentors until I left then created a female character.  I had all kinds of roleplay then.  

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