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Ok, so this is ridiculous

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6 hours ago, PrudenceAnton said:

It may sound polite and reasonable, until you find yourself at the end of the waiting list.  The way LL is currently delivering the homes is the most unbiased and fair method, if not fully practical. Patch Linden and his team of other Lindens and Moles are diligently working hard to deliver premium members a much craved after commodity.

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Completely random is fair and balanced??!? For a lottery ticket to win something, sure. But this is something people have paid for. How many new premium members signed up just to get this houseboat? And they have to wait for a random number to get one? Sorry, it should be first come first served just like the rest of life. You wouldn't be happy if you walked up to the deli counter to get your cold cuts and saw 80 people standing around knowing you had to pick a random number to be next, would you? I wouldn't. LL screwed up. They should have had thousands of sims worth of these homes ready to go before announcing it.

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11 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Sorry, it should be first come first served just like the rest of life.

I'm not sure if it's the lack of coffee I've consumed so far this morning, or what... but I'm a little confused by your statement. It is basically this, first to click next and claim it wins. Thats about as fair as it gets.

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12 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Completely random is fair and balanced??!? For a lottery ticket to win something, sure. But this is something people have paid for. How many new premium members signed up just to get this houseboat? And they have to wait for a random number to get one? Sorry, it should be first come first served just like the rest of life. You wouldn't be happy if you walked up to the deli counter to get your cold cuts and saw 80 people standing around knowing you had to pick a random number to be next, would you? I wouldn't. LL screwed up. They should have had thousands of sims worth of these homes ready to go before announcing it.

Do we really need to have this argument for the billionth time?

And it is first come, first serve. You click the button first, you get the house. Everyone has the same chance. 

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1 minute ago, Beth Macbain said:

Do we really need to have this argument for the billionth time?

And it is first come, first serve. You click the button first, you get the house. Everyone has the same chance. 

Jinx. (Is that still a thing or am I showing my age?)

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11 minutes ago, Mae Omizu said:

I'm not sure if it's the lack of coffee I've consumed so far this morning, or what... but I'm a little confused by your statement. It is basically this, first to click next and claim it wins. Thats about as fair as it gets.

I could be wrong (and likely am) but I think the idea @Drake1 Nightfire is expressing is whomever signed up to be Premium member first should be entitled to a LH first, but again I could be reading that wrong and apologies if I am.

I'm not about to start another argument. Opinions have been clashing back and forth for months. All the "could have, should have, would have" speculations don't really change the current state of things. The Lindens and Moles have no immediate plans to change the current system. Anything else we say isn't going to make a great deal of difference, but we are allowed to speak our minds since that's what the forums are here for. 

(But now I'm backing out of the room because these threads rarely end well. Good luck people!)

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55 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

Do we really need to have this argument for the billionth time?

And it is first come, first serve. You click the button first, you get the house. Everyone has the same chance. 

Overlooking other variables like connection speed, the times people are available etc.

Drake's analogy with the deli counter illustrates perfectly why the current system creates so much bad feeling and feels unfair. Every one has an equal chance in a lottery, but it still makes no sense for dealing with customers when people's perception of fairness is that people should take their turn and wait in an orderly queue. 

It seems odd to me that it is too complicated and resource intensive to do this or divert resource from laying out the parcels for release. My understanding of the way this all works is limited to thinking what would be needed to implement a list system should take a web designer a few hours, any database required fairly trivial. But I am no expert and both, if I recall correctly, Patch and a mole have confirmed they have looked at the option and determined what looks to be simple would in fact be far more complicated, difficult to do and resource intensive than appears. I think further explanation would be more satisfying and provide a better reassurance to those that feel the system unfair than the answers the community provides. 

Whilst a deli could serve people through a lottery system and make a good case for it being fair because of equal access. It still would not feel fair for those passed over as they not unreasonably expect a queuing system. 

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4 minutes ago, Aethelwine said:

It still would not feel fair ...

There is the most important part of all of this. No matter what method is used, someone is going to say it's unfair. Someone is going to be unhappy. Someone is going to find fault. 

The Lindens are in a damned-if-they-do-damned-if-they-don't-no-win situation. 

I believe they've chosen to ignore this argument that keeps happening over and over and decided to concentrate their focus on building and releasing in the current method. Patch will probably prove me wrong by switching things up again, but no matter what, someone is going to complain, second-guess, armchair-quarterback, debate, argue, whine, and generally nit-pick everything they do. 

The only thing that is going to make (most) everyone completely happy is to keep releasing houses until everyone has one no matter the method. There will still be some people who are forever unhappy because they can't get their ideal location, but them's the breaks. 

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8 hours ago, PrudenceAnton said:

It may sound polite and reasonable, until you find yourself at the end of the waiting list.  The way LL is currently delivering the homes is the most unbiased and fair method, if not fully practical. Patch Linden and his team of other Lindens and Moles are diligently working hard to deliver premium members a much craved after commodity.

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Perhaps Patch should hire more qualified people to create their regions.  I personally know  many people that can take a blank region and terraform, landscape and theme a region in a matter of hours.  They should also consider less custom landscaping if it takes that long.  Of course all this is a marketing scheme.  Announce new homes you know everyone will want one, make them hard to get and make just enough to keep the interest of the customer.  Not that i blame them. It's brilliant marketing.  How many more people did they get to sign up for premium for a chance at a "new and improved" home.  Was it a coincidence that they raised the price of a premium membership just as they started releasing new homes? Nope.  How many people are now on their website 24/7 trying to get a home.  There is always a reason a company does things they way they do and it's more likely about increasing profit than anything else.  I work a full time job so unfortunately I am unable *and unwilling* to spend my precious free time refreshing a web site.

 

 

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14 minutes ago, KateaSL said:

Perhaps Patch should hire more qualified people to create their regions.  I personally know  many people that can take a blank region and terraform, landscape and theme a region in a matter of hours.  They should also consider less custom landscaping if it takes that long.  Of course all this is a marketing scheme.  Announce new homes you know everyone will want one, make them hard to get and make just enough to keep the interest of the customer.  Not that i blame them. It's brilliant marketing.  How many more people did they get to sign up for premium for a chance at a "new and improved" home.  Was it a coincidence that they raised the price of a premium membership just as they started releasing new homes? Nope.  How many people are now on their website 24/7 trying to get a home.  There is always a reason a company does things they way they do and it's more likely about increasing profit than anything else.  I work a full time job so unfortunately I am unable *and unwilling* to spend my precious free time refreshing a web site.

LL is a business. Of course, they're working on many different avenues to increase profit. That's the way business works.

As for hiring "more qualified people", I'm unsure by your wording and grammar if you mean mean a greater number of people, or people who are more qualified.

f you're suggesting that they need to hire more people, there is a budget in place and to increase that budget, they would need to increase fees again in some other ways. Are you willing to pay more? It could also be said that people need to be more patient, but that would just be ridiculous, wouldn't it?

If you're suggesting that the Moles aren't qualified, I would ask you to provide examples of your friends' work and let us judge the quality. We'll also need evidence of the time it took these oh-so-talented friends to create these extraordinary regions, thanks.

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1 minute ago, Beth Macbain said:

If you're suggesting that the Moles aren't qualified, I would ask you to provide examples of your friends' work and let us judge the quality. We'll also need evidence of the time it took these oh-so-talented friends to create these extraordinary regions, thanks.

That's exactly what i'm suggesting.  I'd be happy to provide what you are asking to LL if they choose to ask me.  I actually don't feel the need to justify anything to a random forum member. :)

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37 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

There is the most important part of all of this. No matter what method is used, someone is going to say it's unfair. Someone is going to be unhappy. Someone is going to find fault. 

How is it unfair to give the premium members homes in the order that they joined premium? 

And that is EXACTLY what i meant @RaeLeeH thank you. 

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8 minutes ago, KateaSL said:

That's exactly what i'm suggesting.  I'd be happy to provide what you are asking to LL if they choose to ask me.  I actually don't feel the need to justify anything to a random forum member. :)

Well, then, maybe your friends might consider applying to become Moles. (I think I saw  a permanent link for the application process somewhere...I can try and find it again if you're interested.) Maybe they'll find themselves hired (maybe there is already a budget for it in place), and that means a greater pool of builders, which is presumably a good thing, as far as the region building process goes.

 

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1 minute ago, Arquet said:

 

Well, then, maybe your friends might consider applying to become Moles. (I think I saw  a permanent link for the application process somewhere...I can try and find it again if you're interested.) Maybe they'll find themselves hired (maybe there is already a budget for it in place), and that means a greater pool of builders, which is presumably a good thing, as far as the region building process goes.

 

Great idea!

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2 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

How is it unfair to give the premium members homes in the order that they joined premium? 

And that is EXACTLY what i meant @RaeLeeH thank you. 

And watch some of the loudest complaining voices complain even louder, as they realise they are now waaaaayyyyyyyyyy back in the queue, somewhere over the far horizon.

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56 minutes ago, KateaSL said:

Perhaps Patch should hire more qualified people to create their regions.  I personally know  many people that can take a blank region and terraform, landscape and theme a region in a matter of hours.

Oh brother.

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13 minutes ago, KateaSL said:

That's exactly what i'm suggesting.  I'd be happy to provide what you are asking to LL if they choose to ask me.  I actually don't feel the need to justify anything to a random forum member. :)

But you made the statement on a public message board to all the random forum members. Surely your friends' work is so glorious you'd be happy to show it off to everyone, wouldn't you? 🙂 (I can do passive-aggressive smiley faces, too!)

I'm also calling BS on your friends being more qualified. I, too, can terraform and theme a region in a matter of hours... minutes, even (it'd be crap, but whatever). What I can't do, and I'm willing to bet your friends can't, either, is everything that goes into the back-end and technical aspects that go far above and beyond simply putting together a private region, but way to oversimplify things. 

10 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

How is it unfair to give the premium members homes in the order that they joined premium? 

 Who says they want one? How long do that have to claim it? Are they automatically put on the list or do they have to sign up? What about premium members who don't even know there are new Linden Homes? What if they claim a home with no intent to ever use it, but took it because it was given to them, and hundreds sit empty because homes were given to premium members who don't even log in anymore? What about new premium members who feel that LL should be making extra effort to retain them and feel it's unfair that they were relegated to the old homes? 

Fair and unfair is a matter of opinion. What seems fair to you is undoubtedly going to seem unfair to someone else. 

12 minutes ago, KateaSL said:

Great idea!

Will they be using you as a reference?

11 minutes ago, Arquet said:

And watch some of the loudest complaining voices complain even louder, as they realise they are now waaaaayyyyyyyyyy back in the queue, somewhere over the far horizon.

mhm... exactly. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Beth Macbain said:

There is the most important part of all of this. No matter what method is used, someone is going to say it's unfair. Someone is going to be unhappy. Someone is going to find fault. 

The Lindens are in a damned-if-they-do-damned-if-they-don't-no-win situation. 

I believe they've chosen to ignore this argument that keeps happening over and over and decided to concentrate their focus on building and releasing in the current method. Patch will probably prove me wrong by switching things up again, but no matter what, someone is going to complain, second-guess, armchair-quarterback, debate, argue, whine, and generally nit-pick everything they do. 

The only thing that is going to make (most) everyone completely happy is to keep releasing houses until everyone has one no matter the method. There will still be some people who are forever unhappy because they can't get their ideal location, but them's the breaks. 

Someone can always find ground to complain, that is true. But complaints are minimised by organising the distribution in a way that is consistent with expectations.

Going back to the deli example, have you seen or ever heard anyone complain that the system of tickets they use would be far fairer if the next number to be seen was determined by a tombola? It would of course be fair everyone would have equal chance, those at the shop first would not have any priority. Whilst the system is fair, it wouldn't feel fair. No one would seriously make that complaint about the system they use that preference to those that were there before them is unfair.

Your argument totally misses why people feel frustrated. insisting the current system is fair is like arguing serving customers is fairer with a tombola system. Some preference and unfairness is expected, because it prevents the situation of one customer waiting in the shop for hours while his number isn't called whilst those more fortunate around him are being served first.

The problem seems to be from the replies given by Patch and the moles that a list is technically not possible or too difficult to implement because of complications it is the only answer to a list solution that has any weight or makes any sense. I am happy to accept that what they say is true, but it has to be said that the assurance on its own without much in the way to counter the seemingly relatively trivial implementation of a few changes and links for a database system on the webpage, is going to be unsatisfying for many.

Edited by Aethelwine
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Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

How is it unfair to give the premium members homes in the order that they joined premium? 

And that is EXACTLY what i meant @RaeLeeH thank you. 

It is unfair because.... well why even should they?

Your deli doesn't serve people first that have been going there for years in preference to those that have been in the shop waiting patiently to be served.

Edited by Aethelwine

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4 minutes ago, Aethelwine said:

Someone can always find ground to complain, that is true. But complaints are minimised by organising the distribution in a way that is consistent with expectations.

The system is consistent with the way it's been for the last 10 years. Why would anyone expect differently? You go to the website, click the button, and get the house you get. 

5 minutes ago, Aethelwine said:

Going back to the deli example, have you seen or ever heard anyone complain that the system of tickets would be far fairer if the next number to be seen was determined by a tombola? It would of course be fair everyone would have equal chance, those at the shop first would not have any priority. Whilst the system is fair it wouldn't feel fair. No one would seriously make that complaint about the system they use of forming a queue shouldn't give preference to those that were there before them.

Absolutely I have. I'd be complaining. I'm going to try for a trailer on my alt, and I don't want to wait in line behind anyone. I want to go to the website and claim it the way I always have - the way I expect to. I see no reason to change that method. 

8 minutes ago, Aethelwine said:

Your argument totally misses why people feel frustrated. insisting the current system is fair is like arguing serving customers is fairer with a tombola system. Some preference and unfairness is expected, because it prevents the situation of one customer waiting int he shop for hours while his number isn't called whilst those more fortunate around him are being served first.

Your argument totally misses the point that we're not in a deli. Let's say they open it up for a list and 10,000 people sign up immediately. Now those people have a 1 in 10,000 chance of getting a home on Bellisseria. The odds are even slimmer that it's a house they actually want - the right type, the right location.  

10,000 people aren't sitting in front of their computers hitting F5 24/7. The odds are much lower they way things are now, and people who want one will get them much faster. 

16 minutes ago, Aethelwine said:

The problem seems to be from the replies given by Patch and the moles that a list is this technically not possible is the only answer to a list solution that has any weight or makes any sense. I am happy to accept that what they say is true, but it has to be said that the assurance on its own without much in the way to counter the seemingly relatively trivial implementation of a few changes and links for a database system on the webpage, is going to be unsatisfying for many.

I don't think Patch has ever said it's not possible. Of course it's possible, but it isn't nearly as simple as you and others want to make it out to be, and would divert resources away from building out regions. Do people really believe it would be a "relatively trivial implementation of a few changes and links"? Because that's just silly. 

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19 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

I'm also calling BS on your friends being more qualified. I, too, can terraform and theme a region in a matter of hours... minutes, even (it'd be crap, but whatever). What I can't do, and I'm willing to bet your friends can't, either, is everything that goes into the back-end and technical aspects that go far above and beyond simply putting together a private region, but way to oversimplify things. 

 

Maybe if you spent more of your time IN SL rather than posting incessantly on the forum you might get better.  Then you could actually work for LL and what you say might actually be based on actual experience. :) <------passive/aggressive smile.

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10 minutes ago, KateaSL said:

Maybe if you spent more of your time IN SL rather than posting incessantly on the forum you might get better.  Then you could actually work for LL and what you say might actually be based on actual experience. :) <------passive/aggressive smile.

Sugarplum, I'm responding to you so if I'm posting incessantly, doesn't that mean you are as well? 

And not for nothing, but I'm actually in SL right now, and have been since the beginning of our conversation. 

Are you a LL employee? No? Then how are we supposed to put any credence to your words since they aren't based on actual experience either? 

Anything else you'd like to discuss? 

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

The system is consistent with the way it's been for the last 10 years. Why would anyone expect differently? You go to the website, click the button, and get the house you get. 

Absolutely I have. I'd be complaining. I'm going to try for a trailer on my alt, and I don't want to wait in line behind anyone. I want to go to the website and claim it the way I always have - the way I expect to. I see no reason to change that method. 

Your argument totally misses the point that we're not in a deli. Let's say they open it up for a list and 10,000 people sign up immediately. Now those people have a 1 in 10,000 chance of getting a home on Bellisseria. The odds are even slimmer that it's a house they actually want - the right type, the right location.  

10,000 people aren't sitting in front of their computers hitting F5 24/7. The odds are much lower they way things are now, and people who want one will get them much faster. 

I don't think Patch has ever said it's not possible. Of course it's possible, but it isn't nearly as simple as you and others want to make it out to be, and would divert resources away from building out regions. Do people really believe it would be a "relatively trivial implementation of a few changes and links"? Because that's just silly. 

The system in the past has never had to deal with a situation where demand exceeds supply, or not since fairly soon after the first Linden homes were released. The situation now is different in that a lot of people remain unsatisfied.

You like the current system because you are prepared to spend your time running refreshers or hitting F5 to increase your chance of getting a home. It is I admit one crude metric of identifying the desire for a home, but it is only a very crude metric. Not everyone has the free time to do that. Also there are other reasons why that is unhealthy, and also why when someone does all that and still fails to get a home they feel even more strongly they have been cheated and how the system is inadequate for the current situation, dysfunctional in a situation where demand is so much higher than the supply.

I admit my experience is from tinkering with things like dreamweaver, but yes it does seem trivial to me for someone trained in webdesign to make the changes needed. A bit more involved than posting a wordpress document. The database implementation would have to ensure it outputs information in the right formats to the systems that allocate the land, but that information should all be there in the current system and not hard to access. It really doesn't seem to me like it would take one web designer that long to do, which would have no impact whatsoever on the moles roll-out schedules or anyone else working on building the sims as the work is unrelated.

I am not saying I am an expert or anything, just that from my limited knowledge saying we can't do it because of complications and reasons... isn't satisfying answer. It may well and probably is the case I am overlooking something, but I just don't see what that is.

Edited by Aethelwine
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2 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

Sugarplum, I'm responding to you so if I'm posting incessantly, doesn't that mean you are as well? 

And not for nothing, but I'm actually in SL right now, and have been since the beginning of our conversation. 

Are you a LL employee? No? Then how are we supposed to put any credence to your words since they aren't based on actual experience either? 

Anything else you'd like to discuss? 

Sugarplum....how cute! :)

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