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7 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

Issues you another bag of warning points.

Don't do it. Don't sink to their level!

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from the knowledgebase:

Quote

if you buy a yearly Second Life membership and cancel it the next day, you are still be treated as a premium member for the next year!

but that;s not true.
You paid for the perks in advance, but can't use them if you decide to downgrade before it ends.

In Europe LL would have to change their txt ór give really access to all benefits... but for them luckely, they aren't.

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7 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said:

from the knowledgebase:

but that;s not true.
You paid for the perks in advance, but can't use them if you decide to downgrade before it ends.

In Europe LL would have to change their txt ór give really access to all benefits... but for them luckely, they aren't.

It is partially true: Subscribing to an annual premium and cancelling the next day will still give you almost all the benefits: you can still access premium-only locations, still have priority entering full sims, still get the monthly gifts, still get voice-morphing and all the rest, except for land ownership. There may be one or two other perks that go away immediately, but I cannot think of any. As far as I know land-ownership (which includes Linden Homes) are the only thing that goes "NO MAOR FOR U!" immediately, and you must abandon, sell, or otherwise vacate that virtual land *before* you are even able to downgrade.

And either way, it should be expected, because it is a *downgrade*, not a cancellation of automatic renewal. So even in progressive-privileged Europe there is no law being broken.

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3 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

, because it is a *downgrade*

but nót effective before the renew date, so LL does not deliver what is IN the package, and so in EU it would be a failure of already paid services, and as so refundable.

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35 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

but nót effective before the renew date, so LL does not deliver what is IN the package, and so in EU it would be a failure of already paid services, and as so refundable.

It does deliver. When you downgrade, you intentionally choose to relinquish options. Words have meaning. In every language.

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1 hour ago, Alyona Su said:

It does deliver. When you downgrade, you intentionally choose to relinquish options. Words have meaning. In every language.

you seem not to understand, but you DO NOT downgrade before the paid time expires. Thats also what your accountpage will tell: downgrade PENDING"  ... not : we do a bit now and a bit later.
 

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Just now, Alwin Alcott said:

you seem not to understand, but you DO NOT downgrade before the paid time expires. Thats also what your accountpage will tell: downgrade PENDING"  ... not : we do a bit now and a bit later.
 

So - you are saying that if you intentionally and voluntarily tell Linden Lab "DOWNGRADE ME NOW" and they do it, that you are not downgrading? I'm not trying to change your mind because there is imagination and there is fact. I'm going to just go ahead and presume your version of the English language differs from my version of the English language in significant ways where in my version you are imagining things and we'll just have to agree to disagree.

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4 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

you seem not to understand, but you DO NOT downgrade before the paid time expires. Thats also what your accountpage will tell: downgrade PENDING"  ... not : we do a bit now and a bit later.
 

The Lab seems to have a different view on the importance of access to a Linden home perk for the overall Premium experience though - just look at the New Linden Homes dilemma...

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2 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

So - you are saying that if you intentionally and voluntarily tell Linden Lab "DOWNGRADE ME NOW" and they do it, that you are not downgrading? I'm not trying to change your mind because there is imagination and there is fact. I'm going to just go ahead and presume your version of the English language differs from my version of the English language in significant ways where in my version you are imagining things and we'll just have to agree to disagree.

as "downgrade me now" is the same as "cancel automatic renewal" in the Lab interface some folks kinda have to, ... they might not want to "downgrade now" at all ;)

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11 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

So - you are saying that if you intentionally and voluntarily tell Linden Lab "DOWNGRADE ME NOW"

you DO NOT say DOWNGRADE ME NOW, but dowgrade me at the end of the subscription time.

You argue about nothing, it's you who doesn't understand the terms as you tried to put on me.
 

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Oh for ...

They warn you flat out that you'll lose some of your Premium benefits when you choose to downgrade and they do not promise/state anywhere that you will retain all of your benefits - should you chose to downgrade - while the downgrade is being processed.

Get over it - agree with the process or not, that is exactly how it is handled.

Don't like the process? That's great - find a way to have it changed.

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3 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

Don't like the process? That's great - find a way to have it changed.

This.

Though @Alwin Alcott's argument is that it is illegal in the EU. Well, file a complaint. let's all sit back with a big bag 'o popcorn and see what happens. I suspect it will be a boring non-starter. Okies, with that said, I'm-a Outa'he-ah! ~snorts~

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

Oh for ...

They warn you flat out that you'll lose some of your Premium benefits when you choose to downgrade and they do not promise/state anywhere that you will retain all of your benefits - should you chose to downgrade - while the downgrade is being processed.

Get over it - agree with the process or not, that is exactly how it is handled.

Don't like the process? That's great - find a way to have it changed.

That note says nothing about the downgrade pending but the time that the dowgrade gets effective. (=after the paid time expires) The ones that have to go back to school are you and Alyona.

btw your last two lines are just ... never mind, the discussion isn't about getting it at all, but that it's not what it says to be.
Get over it.

Edited by Alwin Alcott
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Out of curiosity, what might the justification for removing some of the privileges associated with full Premium status before the end of the payment period be?

I don't mean the cynical "cuz they can save money" answer. There must be some kind of reasoning behind this, even if it is specious.

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Alwin, point blank there is nothing whatsoever in any of the language concerning Premium and downgrading that states you will enjoy all of your benefits once you decide to downgrade - nothing. At all.

You are basing your responses on what you imagine their policies to say - such reading being quite incorrect.

Deal with it.

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2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Out of curiosity, what might the justification for removing some of the privileges associated with full Premium status before the end of the payment period be?

I don't mean the cynical "cuz they can save money" answer. There must be some kind of reasoning behind this, even if it is specious.

You'd have to ask Linden Lab directly - Im not bothering to speculate and personally don't care what the reasoning is.

I may not agree with the way the process is set up but I'm not going to pretend they're contradicting themselves or even doing something wrong/illegal/etc here - if they are, then it ought to be an easy enough win ... assuming anyone actually bothers to go so far as have a trial over it.

Point blank on this: Our personal opinions aren't worth much in matters such as this. Someone has an issue? Get a lawyer.

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4 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

You are basing your responses on what you imagine their policies to say

your reasoning is absurd.
You pay upfront for a package with optional renewing
if you don't renew you don't even get the full pre paid package.
Thats absurd. And illegal in the EU consumers laws.

THAT was the whole point of discussion. Not the USA or Timboektoe way of dealing with consumers.

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Just now, Solar Legion said:

You'd have to ask Linden Lab directly - Im not bothering to speculate and personally don't care what the reasoning is.

Absolutely. Asking questions is such a waste of time, isn't it? Embrace the TOS and be happy, I always say!

4 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

I may not agree with the way the process is set up but I'm not going to pretend they're contradicting themselves or even doing something wrong/illegal/etc here - if they are, then it ought to be an easy enough win ... assuming anyone actually bothers to go so far as have a trial over it.

Point blank on this: Our personal opinions aren't worth much in matters such as this. Someone has an issue? Get a lawyer.

Interesting, but not relevant to my question. I'm not myself doubtful that they have established their right to do this. But thanks!

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36 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Out of curiosity, what might the justification for removing some of the privileges associated with full Premium status before the end of the payment period be?

I don't mean the cynical "cuz they can save money" answer. There must be some kind of reasoning behind this, even if it is specious.

I genuinely believe it's a technical thing: some king of token or flag on your account that allows you to buy land/have an LL home - and when renewal date comes the system is not able to automatically downgrade your account. My theory is a hypothesis based on what you get to keep until renewal date: all services and perks that are not *land management-related*. Those are, theoretically, easy to have the system automate the on-off switch. But the ability to "own" virtual land would be (I presume) some completely different system, deep in the bowe... er, throat of the beast.

This is how logic dictates, but entitlement-snowflake reasoning notwithstanding.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Alwin Alcott said:

your reasoning is absurd.
You pay upfront for a package with optional renewing
if you don't renew you don't even get the full pre paid package.
Thats absurd. And illegal in the EU consumers laws.

THAT was the whole point of discussion. Not the USA or Timboektoe way of dealing with consumers.

Your point is accurate. What is not accurate is what you are presuming is actually happening when you downgrade. The method and process of downgrading does not fit within the definition you are trying to pinhole it all into - if it were to fit within that description then you'd be correct: it would be against the law in the U.S. also (on a per state basis) - but it is not happening in that way.

This is the part of your logic that we are debating against, not the question of what you say as being against the law or not, but rather if what actually happens applies by definition.

Edit to clarify: ALL other Premium perks are systems for *access*, whereas owning land (including an LL home) is not a system about access, it is actually changing *PERMISSIONS* (Your permission on what you can do and where). And THIS is why that system cannot be so easily automated to trigger on a specific date or time. Even at my RL work, they have to manually change user permissions in the system whenever there is a change in someone's status. But forced password change reminders are pretty much (annoyingly) automated.

Edited by Alyona Su
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1 minute ago, Alyona Su said:

I genuinely believe it's a technical thing: some king of token or flag on your account that allows you to buy land/have an LL home - and when renewal date comes the system is not able to automatically downgrade your account. My theory is a hypothesis based on what you get to keep until renewal date: all services and perks that are not *land management-related*. Those are, theoretically, easy to have the system automate the on-off switch. But the ability to "own" virtual land would be (I presume) some completely different system, deep in the bowe... er, throat of the beast.

This is how logic dictates, but entitlement-snowflake reasoning notwithstanding.

So, they downgrade land privileges at the time that you signal that you are downgrading because the system can't do it automatically when your "paid for" Premium time lapses? Am I understanding you correctly?

I had wondered if there were not some reason why a Premium subscriber would want to immediately lose land or tier entitlement -- such as something to do with a tier donation to group, or some other responsibility associated with tier and land. I can't think what that might be, but it seemed to me at least possible that some residents downgrade early not simply to prevent a renewal, but for other reasons that might involve this particular peculiarity.

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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

So, they downgrade land privileges at the time that you signal that you are downgrading because the system can't do it automatically when your "paid for" Premium time lapses? Am I understanding you correctly?

Yes, that is my presumption, based on what I know and understand of the under-the-hood aspects (When I bought estates in the past, LL provided *amazing* under-the-hood information and details about how the servers all work and regions work and lots of stuff) - so based on the accumulative knowledge I have picked up over various sources and methods through the years, along with my understanding of how (many) automated systems also work, this is my genuine hypothesis: the "switch" that allows you to buy land, etc. is something that is set by some specific event that requires user interaction (the customer) and cannot happen though automation by a lesser system, based on a first trigger (such as time-based or date-based).

Kind of like when dealing with data on a web-based database, all the information you put into a form is floating in ether until you hit the *save* button (which could be named "Next Record" or "Submit", or anything else; it requires you to actually interact). In short: the system cannot be automated to trigger based on another trigger (the triggers cannot cascade: One trigger setting-off a second trigger.) A technical limitation of the system as currently implemented.

Good God, Almighty, I have become a NERD!

Edited by Alyona Su
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Perhaps auto-renewal is best. Imagine all the people who would forget  to renew automatically if this were an option...and they log in one day to find all their prims returned :( Because that's what happens when you abandon land or downgrade -- all your inworld stuff poofs. 
So maybe it is best to have auto-renew as the fixed state. But only if one could cancel that within a day or 2 and get a full refund just in case someone forgot renewal was coming up.

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Perhaps auto-renewal is best. Imagine all the people who would forget  to renew automatically if this were an option...and they log in one day to find all their prims returned :( Because that's what happens when you abandon land or downgrade -- all your inworld stuff poofs. 
So maybe it is best to have auto-renew as the fixed state. But only if one could cancel that within a day or 2 and get a full refund just in case someone forgot renewal was coming up.

There IS a grace period where you can ask for a refund and LL will plop you back into Basic account. In the U.S.the law is three business days to legally cancel any contract, though I think LL has a little longer than that. :D And that's for any company doing business in the U.S. (Certainly E.U. has similar, though I don;t know the time frame, etc.) - At my RL work, we use LastPass and I had a personal Premium account, they renewed it to my shock! (I forgot I had the premium) - so I sent an email to support (which created a support ticket) stating I now disagree with their TOS, please refund... and they did within two days. Cordially and politely, I should add.

Edited by Alyona Su
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1 hour ago, Alwin Alcott said:

your reasoning is absurd.
You pay upfront for a package with optional renewing
if you don't renew you don't even get the full pre paid package.
Thats absurd. And illegal in the EU consumers laws.

THAT was the whole point of discussion. Not the USA or Timboektoe way of dealing with consumers.

Then sue them. Get an actual court to agree with your interpretation.

Until then, you're not going to get anywhere with your assertions - not with me and likely not with those who think similarly.

Based solely on the text presented as well as the way Linden Lab has operated thus far, your assumptions and assertions are based on your personal interpretation of the policies and information rather than what is actually written and presented.

Have fun with that tree Alwin.

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