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Seba Serpente

Bellisseria Choo-Choo Train Thread

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9 minutes ago, Seba Serpente said:

Problem with the SLRR is that is old, is extremely limited, and makes impossible to have many great features and a better user experience. There could be extremely realistic and pleasing to use trains, but is just not plausible with the rails limitations, which are not technical, they are just missing by design [snip]

This bit intrigues me. Are you saying that the designer(s) of the SLRR designed it that way on purpose, with the limitations you say it has made that way intentionally? If so, I would wonder why that decision was made. Maybe there is a very good reason (but perhaps that is something only the designer could answer).

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8 minutes ago, Seba Serpente said:

Here is the problem. Roads are not scripted. You put them there and people can use it hoever they can. yhey dont really need maintenance or updating.

However, trains workings are extremely linked to the way the tracks are made and designed, and sadly, people have no control on what these tracks allows you to do, the technical limits, and the features that are available for creators to use. That is all on Linden Lab, and the best way to enable creators and enthusiasts to make use of these tracks, is to listen and develop the system and the tools, to enable others to create and use it.

Problem with the SLRR is that is old, is extremely limited, and makes impossible to have many great features and a better user experience. There could be extremely realistic and pleasing to use trains, but is just not plausible with the rails limitations, which are not technical, they are just missing by design, and the only way to ensure a new generation for an SLRR to live to the expectations, and have the features and tools needed for the community, is to ask the community. They are the ones that use it constantly, they are the ones that knows the flaws, whats missing, and what is needed to make it better.

I get the impression you are not a regular user of SLRR.

First paragraph: True, and I also said "though more complicated". Second paragraph: Already done, already done, and already done. LL has built-out the SLRR on Heterocera, the only thing residents do other that plop a train on it and rive is to request connection to it from their parcels if they choose (which is a simple "switch" object). Third paragraph: Why> if it ain't broke, why fix it? There already are many creator tools and kits for those wanting to build their own entire system.

I reiterate; I get the impression you are not a *regular* user of SLRR.

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6 minutes ago, Sylvia Tamalyn said:

This bit intrigues me. Are you saying that the designer(s) of the SLRR designed it that way on purpose, with the limitations you say it has made that way intentionally? If so, I would wonder why that decision was made. Maybe there is a very good reason (but perhaps that is something only the designer could answer).

New features has been added to Second Life since the creation of the SLRR. Mesh, Web based scripting and much more, can now be used to create an updated system with new, better features and functions that were simply not imagined at the beginning.  SLRR is a very rustic and basic system that has fell behind on whats plausible now.

How can we make a new, better SLRR?

- Allow not only one, but several ways to follow the tracks. Track naming/id, custom colission, script messaging... there are several things that can be explored to achieve smoother movement, more precission, better performance.

-There can be a built in traffic control. Real railways are managed to prevent colissions and keep the trains running in a controlled and efficient way. There are now ways to broadcast messages from and to multiple regions. Having working status signals on the tracks to inform conductors of traffic is a good step toward  for a better user experience. Having traffic information available for the creation of tracking/ monitoring systems, or even automated trips without making the trains clip when they find themself heading straight to eachother.

- Simply better tracks and building elements. Better looooking elements is a no brainer, we want to make second life look modern and advanced. Also, sections of track and other elements can be made easier to install and use, make them allign to grid like they already do with the new mesh roads is a good start.

 

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I'm going to start a change.org petition begging for the Lindens and Moles to not spend a single second on a train, or if they do, to do it in absolute secrecy and just plop it down when it's done, and not take questions from the "experts". 

Oh, wait... those don't work, do they? 

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As anyone ever considered the fact that Patch Linden mentioned trains or hints of trains and everyone assumes a railroad will be built. Maybe he was hinting at box car/train/caboose homes for Bellisseria!   Just thinking way outside the box.

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35 minutes ago, Ziggy Starsmith said:

As anyone ever considered the fact that Patch Linden mentioned trains or hints of trains and everyone assumes a railroad will be built. Maybe he was hinting at box car/train/caboose homes for Bellisseria!   Just thinking way outside the box.

I had the same thought at one point and thought "hobo boxes yaaaassss"!

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, Ziggy Starsmith said:

As anyone ever considered the fact that Patch Linden mentioned trains or hints of trains and everyone assumes a railroad will be built. Maybe he was hinting at box car/train/caboose homes for Bellisseria!   Just thinking way outside the box.

Could easily be.  When LibGwen mentioned train car houses early in the thread, Quartz "liked" it.  The only context in which trains were mentioned by Patch was in a discussion of LH themes, or at least that's all I've heard about.

Edited by Nika Talaj
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Posted (edited)

If was just more homes it woudnt have mentioned it relates to the SLRR.

 

..and there is an actual train on the mole continent.

Edited by Seba Serpente

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I wouldn't read too much into any likes @Quartz Moleor any other Mole put on a particular post. He's said before that it's merely an acknowledgement, and not an endorsement, of any ideas or thoughts in a post. 

Where was it mentioned in relation to the SLRR? It may have been, but I don't actually recall. Source? 

If you're talking about Meauxle Bureaux, there are lots of things there that I don't think we'll see on Bellisseria. A certain undead (she's still breathing!) body hidden beneath a rug comes to mind... 

Though one never knows, I suppose. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Nika Talaj said:

Could easily be.  When LibGwen mentioned train car houses early in the thread, Quartz "liked" it.  The only context in which trains were mentioned by Patch was in a discussion of LH themes, or at least that's all I've heard about.

Or it could simply mean I liked the idea, particularly after looking at some of the pictures I found when I searched for train car homes in Google.

However, I'm not the one who decides what sort of themes we're going to do, so that doesn't really count for very much if you're trying to predict the future.   

Edited by Quartz Mole
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Posted (edited)

I went back and listened to the Patch talk again.  Here is what he said in regards to train stuff:

Regarding new campers & trailers,
we will potentially be turning the dials on introducing commercial spaces in campers & trailers,
but let me just say "choo choo chugga chugga choo choo",
and that will continue into the theme after, 
which will be extremely fitting for that to continue into.
No mono rails,
true rail.
  (a question:  Is this going to be related to the SLRR?)
You'll have to wait and see.
I would imagine if it goes choo choo it's gotta have something to do with the SLRR

 

Edited by LittleMe Jewell
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Thanks, Quartz. 

I have to admit that I feel there is a certain affinity between trains and SL.  When I stand next to a train in RL as it's just beginning to move, I'm overwhelmed by the delicacy and power of all those highly engineered parts.  The 5-6' tall wheels almost silently, inexorably beginning to rotate.  With steam locomotives, there's the contrast between the elegance of steam power, and the profligate shoveling of coal into the boiler.  The hurtling inertia when trains finally reaches travel speed frightens and thrills me.

Like steam trains, to me SL is an astonishing feat of engineering which is a mix of old, brute force technologies and elegant scalability architecture.  The daring of Philip's original vision, the juggernaut it became so quickly, its persistence in the face of better technologies and the spread of absorbing media, all remind me of the persistence of trains in our culture, and in our transportation networks.  There has been times when SL and trains each had every reason to fade into oblivion, but neither have done so. The artistry that graphic designers bring to SL delights me, as does the artistry of trains traveling through landscapes, as shown in the gorgeous pics in this thread. In my mind, the two ... SL and  trains, particularly steam trains ... are weirdly akin, and I have a secret delight when I see one chugging along in SL.

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Posted (edited)

@Seba Serpente love your ideas, i been throwing suggestions at LL similar to what you said. New tracks, track blocks (section of a track that if a train is in that block no other trains can enter that block till the occupying train departs that block) and a central traffic control location(s) i already got a place ready to go in Plusia.
I also suggested remote controlled switches so someone in say Plusia can flip the switch for a train in Tuliptree.

Btw trains on the SLRR follow invisible prims called Guides that are in the middle of the tracks. The trains detect these prims using llSensor, sadly physical trains only use llSensor to rerail itself so the Guide prim cant be phantom for physical trains, which means its a pain to drive a car or truck between tuliptree and calleta.

Now if there were to be trains in Bellesaria i really hope the Guides are phantom or the whole network placed above the road like in NYC or even in the sky as a subway. I seen some pretty great subways using the TBM system that are placed high in the sky. Infact East River community does it.
Doing it that way would be better and still helps get people traveling around Bellesaria and i think a subway network in the sky would be best for the new mainland.

Edited by VenKellie

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Posted (edited)

Placing prims along the tracks is not necesary any longer and I woudnt suggest it for a new version unless is the only way to keep old trains working on new tracks (and that feature is wanted).

Trains forced to stop if a track is occupied is just a bad idea. People can on purpose leave a train stopped at a section and block all traffic, or just someone went afk. Traffic control could show that block is in fact occupied, but conductors or automated systems, could ignore an occupied track if wanted or needed.

Edited by Seba Serpente
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Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, Seba Serpente said:

Trains forced to stop if a track is occupied is just a bad idea. People can on purpose leave a train stopped at a section and block all traffic, or just someone went afk. Traffic control could show that block is in fact occupied, but conductors or automated systems, could ignore an occupied track if wanted or needed.

I thought the same thing about people blocking a track on purpose. And of course someone would do it if that ability was there!

Edited by Sylvia Tamalyn
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If you look carefully at the map ... actually it's easier to see on that funky map you get right after you claim a LH ... look closely at that big green square of unnamed regions bordered by roads.  Is that where that old train station & camels I keep seeing pics of is?  Does anyone else see narrow greenways running E/W from just above and just below that big square?  N/S narrow greenways connect here & there., forming a loose grid.  Could just be nice open space between houses ... or COULD be ...

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3 hours ago, Nika Talaj said:

If you look carefully at the map ... actually it's easier to see on that funky map you get right after you claim a LH ... look closely at that big green square of unnamed regions bordered by roads.  Is that where that old train station & camels I keep seeing pics of is?  Does anyone else see narrow greenways running E/W from just above and just below that big square?  N/S narrow greenways connect here & there., forming a loose grid.  Could just be nice open space between houses ... or COULD be ...

The partial train station and camels and old nuke were (maybe still are) on this region.  I don't have access to an inworld map right now, but I think it is still named SSPE185.

image.png.61a49080e2dbd10c8ec3d292c44f7189.png

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I used to live in the "old" Second Norway which was a beautiful, vibrant, active community until they introduced the trains and the huge airport. It lagged and crippled the sims and all the original charm and vibrant community vanished. TBH Second Norway now seems like a ghost town with all empty, un-rented plots and the only activity on this once vibrant region is the airport and airplanes.

A railroad and/or airport etc will kill Bellisseria!

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10 hours ago, Ziggy Starsmith said:

I used to live in the "old" Second Norway which was a beautiful, vibrant, active community until they introduced the trains and the huge airport. It lagged and crippled the sims and all the original charm and vibrant community vanished. TBH Second Norway now seems like a ghost town with all empty, un-rented plots and the only activity on this once vibrant region is the airport and airplanes.

A railroad and/or airport etc will kill Bellisseria!

Yeah.. Bellisseria is laggy enough(visually, at least) without these things. Not to mention trains look mighty awkward in residential areas. People have trains, and monorails, and all sorts of things on the mainland but very seldom bother to use them. Maybe LL should update those instead of thinking of adding to our ever-growing Linden Home lagfest. We don't need a huge airport. There are plenty of those on the mainland, too.

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On 8/2/2019 at 5:30 PM, Ziggy Starsmith said:

A railroad and/or airport etc will kill Bellisseria!

Old SLRR trains used llSetPos based movement, and some had many primmy cars, depending on who made them.  Newer technologies exist.  Low-prim vehicles help a lot; a train or trolley system may not need a long lineup of cars following the tracks. 

I made a Key Framed Motion ferry system, it did not impact region performance in any noticeable way.  Not physical, zero collisions.

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10 hours ago, Nika Talaj said:

Old SLRR trains used llSetPos based movement, and some had many primmy cars, depending on who made them.  Newer technologies exist.  Low-prim vehicles help a lot; a train or trolley system may not need a long lineup of cars following the tracks. 

I made a Key Framed Motion ferry system, it did not impact region performance in any noticeable way.  Not physical, zero collisions.

Janet's Viking sim, Folkvang, has keyframed trains, carts, and animals moving all over the place. There are switches, signals, loading and unloading stations, all running automatically. It's all very smooth. Good example to study if you're thinking of implementing trains.

With overloaded sims being the new normal in SL, keyframe animation seems to be the way to go. Scripts which are constantly making corrections to keep things on track break in overloaded sims. Overload messes up pathfinding and SLRR trains.

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