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Kira Snowfield

Side effect from exellent Graphics these days.

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I have maybe a silly question ¬¬ .. i am wondering about it for some time now.

Our Graphic cards these days are awesome!!

With all the changes in Second Life in the past 8 years, it has become for most people most realistic in our viewers.

Incl all the items creators make, the only worry that i have is .. most spinning, flashing, moving spotlights "can" make you really sick after some time.

Tired eyes, headddache or even provoke epileptic seizures. [i have also heard this complain from several people].

I have learned to use the "derender & ad to blacklist" option. BUT now it is so much when you derendered all the items - it will keep you busy derendering them] that make the choice to leave an music venue.

I know that most GAMES give a warning when graphics have an effect on people, why is Second Life not giving a short notice/warning about this matter like other Games??

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Posted (edited)

Seriously Lillith?

It's NOT about "me".. i am only wondering why GAMES have this warning before you can play the game, and Second Life have no such thing when you install it, or information in the Tos about this matter.. what is the difference here.

 

Edited by Kira Snowfield

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Kira Snowfield said:

I know that most GAMES give a warning when graphics have an effect on people, why is Second Life not giving a short notice/warning about this matter like other Games??

I can see why that would be a problem. And yes, triggering from lights and strobes and such IS a thing.

I think the general issue here is that LL doesn't create SL's content, so they tend not to take much responsibility for what does appear in-world. A warning when you log-in might be helpful, but then again I very rarely run across strobes, flashing lights, and the like in SL, so for most people possibly that wouldn't be very relevant. What might be more useful is to ask (or even require?) individual sim/club owners to include a warning in chat when it is applicable to their sim?

Edited by Scylla Rhiadra
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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Kira Snowfield said:

i am only wondering why GAMES have this warning before you can play the game, and Second Life have no such thing when you install it, or information in the Tos about this matter.. what is the difference here.

I heard a lot of users in SL say 'Ooh' and' 'Aah' with delight or even heard them snore while online, but have never encountered a case where several people had epileptic attacks while using SL.

All too often though there a serious fits to be had.

Edited by TDD123
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1 hour ago, Kira Snowfield said:

I have learned to use the "derender & ad to blacklist" option. BUT now it is so much when you derendered all the items - it will keep you busy derendering them] that make the choice to leave an music venue.

One thing people who have a lot of problems like that can do is go to the graphics settings and turn off local lights - that will automatically turn off any light other than the overall scene lighting.

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This is more like some games noting that online interactions aren't covered by the age rating. It's possible to assign an age rating to the set parts of the game, but you can't assign one to the behaviour of random other players.

In the same way, it's not possible to know what someone will build with the tools in Second Life. It wouldn't be possible to have official warnings about every location, because there are too many and they're always changing.

It is possible for the community to provide warnings or information where appropriate, which is where things fall down. There isn't a culture of that in SL. There's a reverse culture, where people will lie or evade questions about accessibility. "Are there a lot of tight spaces?" "Do the lights flash?" "Does this ride have fast movement?" "Do I need to use sound?" "Are there jump scares?"  Which should be simple questions, but too many people assume that nobody really needs to know those things, so they lie about it to get people to visit anyway. Which results in people getting sick, having panic attacks, and so on.

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I have photosensitive seizure activity too. It's one of the reasons why I tend to travel with my graphics turned all the way down and then adjust them gradually to determine safety. I keep particles off and avoid places known to be difficult. This keeps the triggers at a low enough intensity for me that I get build-up rather than a seizure, which gives me time to get away from it. If there's somewhere with flashing lights that I really want to be, I find a place to park my camera (the roof is often good) which keeps the moving lights off my screen. It's a way of being there for the company without putting my safety at too much risk.

Something like screen flicker means SL is more tiring for me than many other computer activities (and computer is worse than non-screen of course). It means I have to watch myself, limit my time inworld and not allow myself to over do. Having to be careful all the time is wearing too, but my SL friends are the ones who've stuck by me through my illness and deterioration so I'm not going to let them go until I have to.

It would be lovely if more venue-owners were aware of our needs and took them into account but of course it's never going to happen. It's not like they'll miss us or anything. Those of us who have these difficulties just have to find ways to keep ourselves safe and manage risk.

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2 hours ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

Something like screen flicker means SL is more tiring for me than many other computer activities.

...sets you on flicker-free fire.

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10 minutes ago, Snugs McMasters said:

...sets you on flicker-free fire.

Thay that five timeth fatht.

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Posted (edited)

I have an inner ear disorder called meniere's disease which can be triggered by lots of things- the weather, altitude, how I am positioned & even lighting & visuals (I can't watch 1080 HD for long periods & 3D movies will never happen for me) can trigger a vomit induced episode of dizziness that at times about 20 years ago was bad enough that I couldn't sit upright in a chair to work.  

So yes, lots of things in SL can trigger that.  From flashy lights to moving my Avi thru a region too much.  (So even tho TDD123 isn't familiar- it's very true). 

I derender things everyday.  But I don't mind, and I expect it.  I think those with similar situations just know to expect it as well.  I don't need to be warned since I am familiar with video games already.

Edited by Pixie Kobichenko
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1 minute ago, Pixie Kobichenko said:

 (So even tho TDD123 isn't familiar- it's very true). 

I hope you understand I' m in no way ridiculing any condition anybody in SL might have, including yours.

I actually AM familiar with the concept of a surgeon' s warning within games, because of light effects ( heavy VR user myself ) , but I'm indeed unfamiliar with it within SL or never ' seen'  or 'heard'  that LL hands out these warnings because of past known cases.

That is, truly, all I had to say about it.

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I don't believe LL needs to.  Only because users know it's a high intensity graphics game.  But I also know the stove is hot - don't put my hand on it! Lol.  But oh yeah, the lasers at clubs keep me from not bothering to go to them much.  Moving floor patterns, even seethru glass like floors in SL bother my head. I stay home in SL a lot lol.

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13 hours ago, Kira Snowfield said:

most spinning, flashing, moving spotlights "can" make you really sick after some time.

And how is this related to the good graphics we have these days?
What you describe is a key "feature" in SL, actually since the very first day. Just take a simple prim, make it change its color like a crazy with a script, and the result (getting sick) will be the same.

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🙂 Thank you all for responding on my topic, i'm glad to notice that i'm not the only one who has noticed this.

AND .. sorry for those who have to deal with those side effects .. it should be a positive experience.

I understand that this is something you get for free, a little inconvenience .. but still, I hope that in the future something more information can be given to those, what they can expect, where and how they can solve these things in their viewer. [especially the newcomers] and those who are sensitive to these side effects.

I do believe that a little extra information would be helpful, perhaps with the help of warning icons, would result in a few points of extra appreciation. (but again,  this is my opinion)

Thank you for your opinion, kind people 😉

 

 

[Oh, and please don't mind my spelling, English is for me an alternative lang, still learning] 

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There's a lot of SL that's safe enough, so I think the more appropriate place for a warning would be tied to specific builds. That's hard to do though given the infrastructure and TPing to get around. I think I'd like for there to be a culture of providing warnings or information about what's ahead primarily because it would encourage broader awareness amongst the general population, but it would probably backfire and become the new script/arc policing. I'm just so used to dealing with it I don't think to mention it to others, though it usually comes up eventually with close friends.

For me, the most important accomodation I need is somewhere safe on the screen to divert my camera to. It gives me time to fumble for the ctrl-shift Home and sometimes it's enough to let me stay a while.

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10 hours ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

There's a lot of SL that's safe enough, so I think the more appropriate place for a warning would be tied to specific builds. That's hard to do though given the infrastructure and TPing to get around. I think I'd like for there to be a culture of providing warnings or information about what's ahead primarily because it would encourage broader awareness amongst the general population, but it would probably backfire and become the new script/arc policing. I'm just so used to dealing with it I don't think to mention it to others, though it usually comes up eventually with close friends.

For me, the most important accomodation I need is somewhere safe on the screen to divert my camera to. It gives me time to fumble for the ctrl-shift Home and sometimes it's enough to let me stay a while.

Is there an SL-centric list anywhere of things to avoid?

I can avoid the things that trigger me (caveat: I'm not epileptic, but some of the photosensitive epilepsy triggers do send me on very unpleasant and nauseating spacey trips), but everyone is so different...

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7 hours ago, Ana Stubbs said:

Is there an SL-centric list anywhere of things to avoid?

I can avoid the things that trigger me (caveat: I'm not epileptic, but some of the photosensitive epilepsy triggers do send me on very unpleasant and nauseating spacey trips), but everyone is so different...

I would think that the main things to avoid would be Local Lights (you can turn this off in Preferences), Particles (same), and moving around in Mouselook mode (the latter is enough to make even me start to feel nauseous). 

On the whole though, SL is not like other games. Here in SL you're already in total control; you can divert your camera away from anything that causes you problems,  you can change your preferences and Windlight settings  so that things which bother you aren't rendered the same way (this will make a big difference). Don't allow regions to enforce their own windlight settings on you.

One last thing, if you're not already using Firestorm, give it a try; it has the ability to de-render and blacklist individual objects, which means that you won't see them at all. If certain flashing or rotating objects are giving you problems, this feature will literally make them invisible.

 

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7 hours ago, Matty Luminos said:

I would think that the main things to avoid would be Local Lights (you can turn this off in Preferences), Particles (same), and moving around in Mouselook mode (the latter is enough to make even me start to feel nauseous). 

On the whole though, SL is not like other games. Here in SL you're already in total control; you can divert your camera away from anything that causes you problems,  you can change your preferences and Windlight settings  so that things which bother you aren't rendered the same way (this will make a big difference). Don't allow regions to enforce their own windlight settings on you.

One last thing, if you're not already using Firestorm, give it a try; it has the ability to de-render and blacklist individual objects, which means that you won't see them at all. If certain flashing or rotating objects are giving you problems, this feature will literally make them invisible.

 

That's an excellent explanation, but I'm sorry, I should have been a bit clearer - I meant things to avoid as a creator.

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Posted (edited)
On 7/18/2019 at 4:05 PM, Ana Stubbs said:

That's an excellent explanation, but I'm sorry, I should have been a bit clearer - I meant things to avoid as a creator.

Do you mean as a creator of individual items or as someone putting together a sim?

I'm not sure there's an answer to this question if it's the former. The individual items I have difficulties with are things many people enjoy.

Many effects in SL tend towards sounds or visuals repeating on a short loop. The longer the loop and the more variation the better for me, also lower volumes.

Setting default volumes lower could be something creators could do, then owners can increase it if they want to rather than just going with it loud because that's the way it was made. I just keep sound off as a matter of course though, because SL sounds tend to give me a slow build up that's not really noticeable until it's too late.

Some patterns have elements within them (like stripes, checks or spirals) which increase the rate of visual repeat even when the texture is moving slowly. A spiral-type pattern is harder for me than an irregular one. Spiral water ripples are where I run into it most often. But many will enjoy the hypnotic quality of the water ripple spiraling around and those patterns tend to work better for some builds.

If it's on the level of a sim/region/parcel, then it's quantity as well as speed. How much of the screen is moving? Is there anywhere safe to put the camera and still be engaged with what's going on? Lights in a corner are easier to cope with than a flashing animated dance floor. Does it really need to be moving? If it's contributing to a club atmosphere, then it probably does, those are difficult to impossible places for us in RL anyway. If it's a sign in a store and the owner thinks it's a way of getting more attention, then there are safer ways of doing that.

Have you looked inworld for any groups to ask in? Or maybe a disability awareness sim? I'd be interested to know how others with related issues negotiate SL and what gives them difficulty.

This discussion has been really helpful for me. I've been working on things to make a sort of psychedelic hippy environment, so playing with the brain visually has been part of that. If they go public (though it's looking less and less likely that it will), then I'll build in ways to caution and inform those who are photo sensitive and also separate levels of intensity.

Edited by Bitsy Buccaneer
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I used to have a product I made (never sold) that was used for a lot of different charity events. It was a house, a fun house of sorts, that had various different aspects that could physically affect people. This house, both inside and outside, had a LOT of warnings on it. I only really knew to add these warnings because I, myself, suffer from vision issues and have family members and friends that have issues with certain kinds of visual experiences. I also know LL takes a hands off approach and isn't likely to put up such warnings because it's not their job to do so.

The same applies when I help build venues, I *insist warnings be placed, or else in wont even do the work (I place them myself during the build to ensure this is done).  Sure it might be on the individual to prevent this for his/her own self to most, but that's not my take. I prefer being proactive for others, just in case :-) 

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Posted (edited)

I get what OP is trying to say, I suppose there should be some kind of warning, maybe not by Linden Labs but on a sim that has possibly triggering effects. Though some people could misuse (or just not use a proper warning all together) I do think most sim and creators owners would be fine with implementing a warning if it were to be brought up to them.  

I myself sometimes forget that photosensitivity is a thing when it comes to video games. I've never experienced it save for during a 2008 Iron Man classic Wii game that made me feel like my brain was oozing out of my eyes and ears for some reason. I feel sorry for those who can have even more intense, adverse reactions. 

Edited by taeyeonblue
gave the wrong year on the video game lol
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