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Rainawolfia

Is it true residents can get away with "disclosure" policy on sharing Ims?

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I chated with a friend in IM, and some of the private conversation was leaked and i looked at them in disbelief. They know about the "disclosure" policy, yet they think it's fine to share conversation logs as long as they don't copy and paste logs. Just type it out. Is it true that people can get around this policy by doing this? 😕

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They must not realize that other people log their chat as well. which is just like passing a note card..it's getting recorded.

It doesn't matter if they show it in an IM or not..If someone reports them they can get in trouble..

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Okay, this bothered me awhile. It's good to know this. So i can tell my friend.. Hopefully they will stop. Many people think its okay to type out the private im word for word or in their own words to other people. Some residents i talk to would say "well we didnt copy and paste"  its still a private message. Thank you Ceka. 

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Well if they are putting things in their own words, that might be different..Maybe more like gossip.

But pasting or direct quoting conversations in an IM is the same as passing note cards..

Plus if it is personal information of other people being given out ..That can get them in trouble as well..

 

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I understand. I don't like gossip especially when it is about me. If they don't stop then i will stop sending them private IMs.. and keep it to myself. 

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4 minutes ago, Rainawolfia said:

I understand. I don't like gossip especially when it is about me. If they don't stop then i will stop sending them private IMs.. and keep it to myself. 

If they did it one time,that should be enough to not trust them again..

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Oh,  you give a good point. I'll keep this to mind! My friend could be just making an mistake. They are really outgoing people.. I'll talk to her first. :)  ty!

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2 hours ago, Rainawolfia said:

Okay, this bothered me awhile. It's good to know this. So i can tell my friend.. Hopefully they will stop. Many people think its okay to type out the private im word for word or in their own words to other people. Some residents i talk to would say "well we didnt copy and paste"  its still a private message. Thank you Ceka. 

Talking about other people is half of the human condition and been going on since we figured out how. 

Context matters.

Typing out *exactly* what bob said word for word is no different than just copy pasting .. slower and less efficient, but just as against the ToS (unless the explicit permission of everyone involved is requested and given, everytime, regardless of the chat being in local or IM).

Own words, ie "I talked to bob, and he said she said they all did it and it was just terrible" is within the rules.

 

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I agree. :D thanks for your input. Copy and pasting is just a faster way of getting a chat log to someone else i believe. They just try and type it and dont realize it is still breaking TOS. Like giving out personal information like age, name, and identity overal to other people without consent is still wrong no matter if they didnt copy and paste..it is still sharing private messages. 

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6 hours ago, Ceka Cianci said:

Well if they are putting things in their own words, that might be different..Maybe more like gossip.

but even under those circumstances it must not contain

" gender, religion, age, marital status, race, sexual orientation, alternate account names (including account statuses, such as whether it is on hold, suspended, or active), and real-world location beyond what is provided by them in their user profile"

https://www.lindenlab.com/legal/community-standards

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I used to have a thing in my profile saying "If you read this, you consent to understand that no profile disclaimer can excuse you from the TOS".

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2 hours ago, Fionalein said:

but even under those circumstances it must not contain

" gender, religion, age, marital status, race, sexual orientation, alternate account names (including account statuses, such as whether it is on hold, suspended, or active), and real-world location beyond what is provided by them in their user profile"

https://www.lindenlab.com/legal/community-standards

Yes,below that I mentioned about personal information of others being given out can get them in trouble as well.

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But -- and I realize this is crazy, but -- say they cut and paste the IM text into another text messaging service (Telegram, IRC, LINE, iMessage, etc.), that's outside LL's control and they won't take measures to protect against disclosure as long as it's outside their service. That doesn't make the disclosure any better but it takes it out of LL's hands.

I don't know what would happen if they were to paste it into a text editor, snip a screen grab, post it to an image-sharing site such as gyazo, then use SL chat to share that image link. Or if they link to an ephemeral messaging app like Snapchat so the link stops working before LL could be sure it was disclosure of in-world chat. I don't see how LL could enforce anything about that, practically.

Because there are loopholes like this, I've never really considered SL messaging "private" enough to fuss about it if somebody "discloses" my text without permission. Come to think of it, I should probably add to my Profile an anti-disclaimer: "Go ahead and disclose any stupid thing I say, just see if I care."

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   LL can't, and therefor won't, enforce their TOS outside of Second Life and the forums. You can copy-paste a conversation from SL IMs to Discord, Skype, a blog, Facebook, or anything you want, really. From the wiki:

Sharing or posting a conversation inworld or in the Second Life forums without consent of all involved Residents is a violation of the Terms of Service.

NOTE: This does not include posting of chat to social media sites or other websites. Posting such logs on web pages, emailing them, or printing them out and posting them on utility poles in the "real world" -- are all actions beyond the scope of the Second Life Terms of Service. ; while that might be illegal, but those laws must be enforced by the proper law enforcement agencies.

"Conversation" means text that originally came from Second Life chat or Second Life instant messages. If it's totally unattributed, then it isn't considered disclosure. Additionally, Residents are not punished for sharing or posting a comment such as "Bob Resident said, 'You're the greatest!'"

   If their policy is broken in-world, or on these forums, file a report.

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   ... Sometimes, I hate the formatting. The last line of my quote was beyond the [/quote] and yet it's inside the quote, and editing the post no workey.

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Does anyone know WHY it's against TOS? I've NEVER understood that.

First, if someone emails me and I show a friend, there is no RL law against it. If someone shows someone else a text they got, it's not a criminal act.

Second, I thought LL didn't get involved in resident disputes - so if you argue with someone over an unrepresentative Marketplace pic, LL's like "Whatever, sort it out yourselves"...but if someone shares a chatlog, it's suddenly a problem??

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11 minutes ago, wolfshanty said:

Does anyone know WHY it's against TOS? I've NEVER understood that.

First, if someone emails me and I show a friend, there is no RL law against it. If someone shows someone else a text they got, it's not a criminal act.

Second, I thought LL didn't get involved in resident disputes - so if you argue with someone over an unrepresentative Marketplace pic, LL's like "Whatever, sort it out yourselves"...but if someone shares a chatlog, it's suddenly a problem??

I would imagine because in a virtual world that bills itself as "Your world, your imagination", the residents' freedom to be who they want to be would be severely hampered if other residents could go around destroying the persona they have created for themselves, whether by sharing RL info about the person, the content of private conversations, or anything else you can think of that a rational person would consider to be private information. IMO, not having such a rule would simply go against the whole basic idea of being able to build and maintain a "second life".

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1 minute ago, Sylvia Tamalyn said:

IMO, not having such a rule would simply go against the whole basic idea of being able to build and maintain a "second life".

Winner: best comment on the subject.

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47 minutes ago, wolfshanty said:

Does anyone know WHY it's against TOS? I've NEVER understood that.

First, if someone emails me and I show a friend, there is no RL law against it. If someone shows someone else a text they got, it's not a criminal act.

Second, I thought LL didn't get involved in resident disputes - so if you argue with someone over an unrepresentative Marketplace pic, LL's like "Whatever, sort it out yourselves"...but if someone shares a chatlog, it's suddenly a problem??

The simplest explanation is probably just "LL is covering their bases."

If there was no rule against it and someone was causing serious harm by sharing a private conversation, it might complicate things for them and would make them legally liable if they were to suspend/ban an account for reasons not stated in the TOS.

They're not just "don't be a donkey" rules. LL uses the TOS to protect you and themselves.

Edited by Wulfie Reanimator

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46 minutes ago, wolfshanty said:

Does anyone know WHY it's against TOS? I've NEVER understood that.

First, if someone emails me and I show a friend, there is no RL law against it. If someone shows someone else a text they got, it's not a criminal act.

Second, I thought LL didn't get involved in resident disputes - so if you argue with someone over an unrepresentative Marketplace pic, LL's like "Whatever, sort it out yourselves"...but if someone shares a chatlog, it's suddenly a problem??

Sharing conversations with others that were not included in the conversation to begin with, and/or not obtaining consent from those who were involved to publish those conversations in a public format is a violation of privacy. There are laws governing privacy at both federal and state levels in the US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privacy_laws_of_the_United_States

Edited by Selene Gregoire
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It doesn't sound like they're sharing a private conversation if they are just recounting what you said in their own words. It seems like your friend wasn't aware you were speaking in confidence. In the real world you can drag a person into a corner and look side to side before whispering your secrets and they will know the conversation is confidential. In SL, you need to say things like keep this secret or don't tell anyone. 

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If they are recounting what was said "in their own words" (and not verbatim) they are not in violation of the ToS. 

Exact reproductions are violations, generalizations are not.

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I’ve always been curious about this. I recall some TOS language about not using chat logs for commercial purposes, but can anyone point me to actual language in the TOS that forbids logging at all or forbids copy pasting?

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http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Residents'_privacy_rights

Quote

Three activities violate the Second Life Terms of Service and will result in a warning, ban, or suspension from Second Life:

  • Disclosing personal information about another Resident
  • Remote monitoring of conversations
  • Disclosing private Second Life conversations

 

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Never mind. I found it myself. It’s in the community standards. Specifically the last sentence of this paragraph:

Disclosure

Sharing personal information about other users, either directly or indirectly, without their consent—including, but not limited to, gender, religion, age, marital status, race, sexual orientation, alternate account names (including account statuses, such as whether it is on hold, suspended, or active), and real-world location beyond what is provided by them in their user profile—is not allowed. Except for the purpose of reporting abuse or any violation of policies to Linden Lab, the remote monitoring, posting or sharing of conversations without a participant’s consent are prohibited.

Available here: https://www.lindenlab.com/legal/community-standards

The wiki is a great resource for many things including what people think the TOS says, but it is not actually the TOS itself. 

Edited by Female Winslet
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