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Live music or Djing

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5 minutes ago, Erwin Solo said:

When a human writes their own original music, plays their own instruments live and sings their own original words live over a music stream, that is not a copyright violation. 

When a DJ plays licensed music over the internet, to do so legally, they would do well to engage a service to help compute and pay the royalties involved.  One can search the web for keywords like the following to read about such services.  Some of the internet radio stations that serve SL use such services.

Keyword search suggestions: online radio copyright licensing service

the response from BMI when asked about streaming music as a DJ into SL " the licensing obligation falls on the website from which music is made available. Therefore, if the music is appearing somewhere other than your own website, you are not responsible for securing a Public Performance license for that use. "

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3 minutes ago, Reba Tedeschi said:

the response from BMI when asked about streaming music as a DJ into SL " the licensing obligation falls on the website from which music is made available. Therefore, if the music is appearing somewhere other than your own website, you are not responsible for securing a Public Performance license for that use. "

That is interesting wording. 

In most cases, SL DJs broadcast music from their own computer.  In most cases, they acquired said music from some website.

The second sentence seems to say that if the music appears on any website anywhere, that the music is in the public domain for rebroadcast without restriction, which is preposterous.  

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LL and its TOS don't speak about streaming music, but about uploadings.
BMI talks about websites, Second life  is NOT a website

A DJ that broadcasts (is equal to streaming) is responsible for his licences where he lives.
He officially needs a license for broadcasting, ánd one for royalties for playing the music.
Home bought CD's from stores are nót licensed for use on streams.
Comparing it to a family party at home or garden isn't in any relevance with streaming.
 

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, Reba Tedeschi said:

the response from BMI when asked about streaming music as a DJ into SL " the licensing obligation falls on the website from which music is made available. Therefore, if the music is appearing somewhere other than your own website, you are not responsible for securing a Public Performance license for that use. "

That was their respose for their own little funny corner of the earth - as mentioned before however public internet streaming is international and therefore local rules apply. A German would have to consider German regulations, a Mexican would have to look up Mexican regulations and so on - more legal fun to ensue in cases where the streaming server is not within the same legal admistrative area as the streaming person.

My 5 cents on a DJ career in SL? Migrate to Sealand!

Edited by Fionalein

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1 minute ago, Reba Tedeschi said:

the response from BMI when asked about streaming music as a DJ into SL " the licensing obligation falls on the website from which music is made available. Therefore, if the music is appearing somewhere other than your own website, you are not responsible for securing a Public Performance license for that use. "

BMI's answer didn't clear anything up.

I suspect their response is toward the site that has the copy of the recording. Since the DJ has the CD/DVD and is streaming it through a streaming service which the SL system doesn't stream but only passes along the URL to the streaming site... it would seem to come down to the streaming services process. Is the music copied by the service and then retransmitted? Or do they pass along the upload from the DJ's computer without making a copy? I would assume the later. The streaming service won't want to store stuff nor have to license everything we might play.

All the 'stream' is pass-along... The DJ's ISP is passing it along, the ISP's backbone provider is passing it along, The streaming service is likely passing it along, the service's ISP is passing it along, as is that ISP's backbone provider, and so on to the end listener's ISP. There is no streaming through the Lab. They only handed off a URL.

Has anyone looked for a case where there was a DMCA/lawsuit for playing music in Second Life?

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Posted (edited)

"Buying music," is in most cases purchasing a license to play for one's own use.  To use the music for a public broadcast exceeds the terms of the purchased license in most cases. 

Suggested keyword phrase for internet search: license and royalty issues for playing music on internet radio station

Edited by Erwin Solo
Changed "on" to "own"
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5 minutes ago, Nalates Urriah said:

Has anyone looked for a case where there was a DMCA/lawsuit for playing music in Second Life?

When one broadcasts copyrighted material over the internet, the material is not contained within Second Life.  Court cases for internet radio are too numerous to list, but these keywords will help.

Search Keywords: Broadcast Law Blog Internet Radio

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

LL and its TOS don't speak about streaming music, but about uploadings.
BMI talks about websites, Second life  is NOT a website

A DJ that broadcasts (is equal to streaming) is responsible for his licences where he lives.
He officially needs a license for broadcasting, ánd one for royalties for playing the music.
Home bought CD's from stores are nót licensed for use on streams.
Comparing it to a family party at home or garden isn't in any relevance with streaming.
 

I generally agree, except I believe it is more factually correct to say that a DJ that streams broadcasts over the internet is responsible for paying licenses computed based on wherever the music is heard.  The more sophisticated licensing services that I have investigated account for royalties based on the country implied by the IP addresses of the listeners. 

The location of the broadcaster is only relevant as to what jurisdictions the broadcaster might be sued.  If one is in a country with multilateral copyright treaties, one has significant exposure to much of the world's courts.

Edited by Erwin Solo
added "computed based on" to first sentence

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, Erwin Solo said:

I generally agree, except I believe it is more factually correct to say that a DJ that streams broadcasts over the internet is responsible for paying licenses computed based on wherever the music is heard

For the netherlands licenses,  point of origin is what counts with streaming. Listeners are only counted in time listened and/or amount ( depending on lisence) not location.
Would get a mess when you have to pay all countries where a listener is... the license giver makes the distribution here.

Edited by Alwin Alcott

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3 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

Would get a mess when you have to pay all countries where a listener is...

When I last researched it, the royalties went to the copyright holder, most of which were consolidated under agreements with the major record labels.  The major record labels had lower royalties for poorer countries.  Thus, good intentions drove the complication.

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As much as do love the diversification of the discussions about copyright etc and when I can play devil's advocate, the main basic query is not resolved.

Would SL/LL differentiate in a club/venue over a DJ playing (say The Rolling Stones ~ Get Off Of My Cloud (purely an example)) from a live disc instead of the original studio version from the single/album or multitude of greatest hits releases dependant on if the club/venue has or hasn't registered themselves as a 'live venue'. Thus having them able to fine the club and DJ for playing said 'live recorded' version of the song?

 

 

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That was answered already: A recording is a recording is a recording. An album/disc/etc that was made using a recording of a live performance is still ... a recording. It is not "live" whatsoever, not in the way "live" is used when broadcasting a show or music performance.

Heck, even some of the older TV sitcoms/games shows had a quickly read off bit at the end of broadcast stating it was recorded in front of a live audience. All that meant was that the people you saw seated and watching were real people and that their reactions were genuine (or purported to be such) ... That's it.

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Posted (edited)

Once upon a time, perhaps a decade ago or at least half a decade ago, I bought a license to a very popular DJ software, which is still around and claims to be the #1 most popular software for internet DJs and internet radio streaming.

Along the way of registering it, and reading the articles on and following the links from this major DJ Software Provider's website concerning copyright and royalty issues, I decided to simply not continue, and eat the price of the software I ultimately did not use, because the cost of staying legal as a stand-alone DJ was going to be between several hundred US dollars a year to well over a thousand US dollars per year.

I have colleagues in SL that work for, and in some case own, internet radio stations that principally perform in SL and OpenSIM.  They use royalty services to keep them legal.

That lone DJ that works for L$ tips has a very expensive hobby, if they are staying legal. 

A simple web search for obvious keywords will turn up current legal blogs on the topic, and reveal royalty consolidation companies to keep you legal. It is not easy to maintain willful blindness in this matter, but that's what willful blindness is all about.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willful_blindness , especially the reference to Aimster Copyright Litigation, citation 334 F.3d 643 (7th Circuit Court. 2003).

Edited by Erwin Solo
fixed wikipedia link that was broken by inclusion of a comma

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I think the very response from BMI mentioned in this thread speaks volumes. They have no clue how Second Life runs therefore highly doubt they are interested in what would mostly be defined as hobby DJ's. Companies go after companies not individuals in cases like these as there is no money to recoup when a DJ in SL would barely in most cases make $10 a night in donations (not a wage). It is the very same reason Movie Studios have had so much trouble getting Piracy to stop and are going after the ISP's and not the individual customers.

Yes it probably is illegal, however if anything was to come about from this anyway, given the anonymous nature of SL they would still need to go through Linden Lab to get the details of the person, by which they would need a court order to do so due to privacy laws. If they were to send a DMCA Notice it would be to Linden Lab who, by their discretion, would simply need to either ban the user or insist they stop doing it. Exactly the same way all this is handled on YouTube and Twitch the streaming of the music takes place but the recordings are either removed or the copyrighted parts removed.

Worst case would be they sue Linden Lab but I highly doubt that will ever happen.

This is probably the reason why "DJ's" in SL have been able to get away with it and why Linden Lab have been mute on the subject apart from Live Performances.

My 2 cents and probably in the end worth nothing.

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There are at least one or two professional DJs (who actually worked on the airways in radio before streaming was even a concept) running around in SL DJing... why isn't anyone asking them?

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2 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

, given the anonymous nature of SL they would still need to go through Linden Lab to get the details of the person, by which they would need a court order to do so due to privacy laws. If they were to send a DMCA Notice it would be to Linden Lab who, by their discretion, would simply need to either ban the user or insist they stop doing it.

no, because they don't need the step going to LL, but with the stream adress they go directly to your provider and ISP .. no DMCA or court order needed. In europe most copyright and controlling instances have investigation rights ( even can give fines without closer investigation by police or other offices)

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10 hours ago, Reba Tedeschi said:

response back from BMI :-
 Hi George,

In response to your inquiry below, the licensing obligation falls on the website from which music is made available. Therefore, if the music is appearing somewhere other than your own website, you are not responsible for securing a Public Performance license for that use.

 

So by this I would assume that it's the responsibility of the stream provider; Shoutcast etc.

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7 hours ago, Erwin Solo said:

When one broadcasts copyrighted material over the internet, the material is not contained within Second Life.  Court cases for internet radio are too numerous to list, but these keywords will help.

Search Keywords: Broadcast Law Blog Internet Radio

I think we get that. The question is, has the issue with SL been litigated?

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1 hour ago, Nalates Urriah said:

I think we get that. The question is, has the issue with SL been litigated?

Not insofar as I am aware.  Since all SL does is pass a music-stream URL, an http:// ..., to your (usually 3rd party) viewer, it seems difficult to see how a DCMA claim would be filed with Linden Labs, but one never knows.

I read your blog regularly.  Your expertise is beyond question; I included certain details for the benefit of other readers. 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said:

no, because they don't need the step going to LL, but with the stream adress they go directly to your provider and ISP .. no DMCA or court order needed. In europe most copyright and controlling instances have investigation rights ( even can give fines without closer investigation by police or other offices)

You are missing the point entirely.

No matter who they go to, if it ends with a company needing to give your details out they still need a Court order or DMCA Filed. Sure the shoutcast company may send the DMCA to your service provider and your service provider may send that to you but that is where it ends unless a court order is provided to the isp to hand over your details.

If this is not the case in EU and anyone can get your personal details from any company you use as a service etc., then I am glad I don't live there.

This is the very reason DMCA notices exist, for the use, streaming or hosting of copyright material. It is also the reason why no music publisher directly sues infringers on YouTube or Twitch which by definition are also stream hosting. A DMCA is filed with the streaming company whereby they have the right to take action. They either remove the offending material, ban the person or even just pass on the DMCA to the infringer making it his responsibility.

As far as I am aware no one in SL has had any action taken against them for this from Labs or any stream host.

Edited by Drayke Newall

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37 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

If this is not the case in EU and anyone can get your personal details from any company you use as a service etc., then I am glad I don't live there.

No we need court orders - but those court orders are a matter of minutes if the accusing party has sufficient proof.

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

No we need court orders - but those court orders are a matter of minutes if the accusing party has sufficient proof.

Tell that to the Movie Studio's who have had this very issue from the get go. The question would also be what is considered sufficient proof. It took the Movie Studios years of PI work to record enough data to even go to court for one. And even then they sued the ISP's not the people accessing the internet.

If you DJ professionally or want to it is better to be safe than sorry, but SL users would be a small fish.

Edited by Drayke Newall

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2 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

Tell that to the Movie Studio's who have had this very issue from the get go. The question would also be what is considered sufficient proof. It took the Movie Studios years of PI work to record enough data to even go to court for one. And even then they sued the ISP's not the people accessing the internet.

If you DJ professionally or want to it is better to be safe than sorry, but SL users would be a small fish.

I can only tell you about Germany.

having identified your IP address is usual enough... having a record of ip address, date and violated intelecual property they can usuall get a court order for the ISP to hand over your identity for the purposes of a cease and desist order and/or a court case. While there have been court case rulings that IP adresses are not always clearly identifing users most cases are settled out of courts - before a judge can evaluate how good an evidence the IP address actually is.

The fees for a cease and desist orders are so exorbitant high, some unemployed lawyers - not unlike the privateers of yore - offer their free services to content owners in exchange for the c&d fees - this has lead to a whole cease and desist industry by specialiced lawyers over here... and another specialiced lawyers industry defending against intellectual property C&D orders. Clever guys - those lawyers...

In addition to this streamers might also need a broadcasting licence. However streams can be limited in maximum users to avoid the "technical ability to be percieved by 500 users or more" which might get you out of the requirements for such a licence. Why do I write conjunctive? Because there might be exceptions - we're Germans - we always ahve exceptions - I bet there will be exceptions in what exact cases as maller number of recipients requires a broadcasting license as well.

TLDR: Internet broadcasting in Germany is only for students of law, nitpickers or those who like to live dangerous...

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14 hours ago, Matty Luminos said:

So by this I would assume that it's the responsibility of the stream provider; Shoutcast etc.

That's how I read it, too. That or maybe the SL parcel owner. 

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Posted (edited)

Second Life "DJs" from what I have read are not streaming legally.  Unless they have permission from the record label &/or have a broadcasting license. They are acting akin to a radio station.  By no means am I under the delusion I know 💯 percent but I thought it best to refrain from being virtual vinyl spinner when friends mentioned my eclectic tastes should not be foisted solely upon their ears.  

 

I do think it's wrong for certain for those who rip music from YouTube to put out tipjars. (& I know I've listened to some who do)

 

Edited by Pixie Kobichenko

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