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greek Wingtips

Live music or Djing

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can, but doesn't have to be.
But as listener you don't know, and can't know.

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5 minutes ago, greek Wingtips said:

Alwin can you please rewrite in english please

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To clarify the question a little more.

A band ie Rolling Stones issues a live concert recording, as a DJ in SL you play a track from said recording after you legitimately purchased it.

Does your playing that track break any part of the Linden TOS copyright ruling on since streaming into SL and copyright is already covered in 

back in 2011

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Posted (edited)

As you cannot confine streaming to listeners in SL only every streaming you do can be considered a public broadcast depending on your local legal legislation and the legistaltion of the server's physical location.

 

Lots of DJing in SL is done under the radar  - but that does not make it right.

Edited by Fionalein

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7 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

As you cannot confine streaming to listeners in SL only every streaming you do can be considered a public broadcast depending on your local legal legislation and the legistaltion of the server's physical location.

 

Lots of DJing in SL is done under the radar  - but that does not make it right.

then again, from the forum discussion I linked already :-

A question asked to BMI  (Broadcast Music Inc,) as you know collects licensing fees on behalf of music performers ) :-

Hello,

I would like to be a DJ in the virtual world Second Life, and would like to be able to broadcast music using a shoutcast server so other Second Life residents can listen to the music being played. I have been browsing the internet trying to figure out what kinds of licenses are needed to no avail. Your website does not provide an option for DJs. How can a DJ (a virtual DJ in this case) be able to comply with all licensing laws? Can you please tell me what licenses are needed and how to obtain them? Thank you in advance for your time.

George XXXXXX

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

response back from BMI :-
 Hi George,

In response to your inquiry below, the licensing obligation falls on the website from which music is made available. Therefore, if the music is appearing somewhere other than your own website, you are not responsible for securing a Public Performance license for that use.

Thanks,
Music that Works for You
Alaina XXXXX

Manager, New Media Business Development
New Media & Strategic Development
10 Music Square East
Nashville, TN 37203-4399
XXXXX@bmi.com
www.bmi.com/newmedia

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For me the simple question really is for Lindens to answer.

If a club/venue in SL hasn't registered with Linden Labs as a live music venue, does that stop a DJ there playing a song/track which is a live recording that has been issued for sale by a band at some time and has been purchased by the person who is the "DJ", since some seem to feel doing so is breaking some area of the Lindens Labs TOS.

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Btw. if you play live music you are a performer not a DJ anymore. DJs always play canned music per definition - they might however play live recorded music - which was live music at it's time of recording but now is no more. Sorry for the nitpicking but there are legal matters involved so concise definitions are inevitable.

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1 hour ago, Fionalein said:

Btw. if you play live music you are a performer not a DJ anymore. DJs always play canned music per definition - they might however play live recorded music - which was live music at it's time of recording but now is no more. Sorry for the nitpicking but there are legal matters involved so concise definitions are inevitable.

So playing one or two track(s) off of a live recording defines you as a performer and not a DJ?
That is what you are saying?

 

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Posted (edited)

I never got this streaming copyright thing. I can understand if it is done on a platform like youtube or twitch where the video's and the songs are there forever, but never can understand why it would be in issue if it is a once off event not recorded like DJ'ing etc in SL.

It's akin to me throwing a party inviting completely random strangers over to my house for it and playing a CD. Am I liable for a copyright lawsuit then?

Edited by Drayke Newall

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18 minutes ago, Reba Tedeschi said:

 So playing one or two track(s) off of a live recording defines you as a performer and not a DJ?
That is what you are saying?

  

Live recordings are not live music... not anymore - they were at the moment of recording.

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3 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

I never got this streaming copyright thing.

It's akin to me throwing a party inviting completely random strangers over to my house for it and playing a CD. Am I liable for a copyright lawsuit then?

It is, akin to you have people over and in your living room and playing them some music, as shown in the thread I did link too. This is a question more about the nitpicking semantics of a matter - if you play a live track during a DJ set does that make you a performer and not a DJ, which does change the copyright issue.

Taking the semantics in a different direction,  ..... since a DJ is streaming 'live' into SL, taking a request proves you are not a 'canned station', once you accept a request does that mean you have proven yourself to be a 'live performer in SL'. Should, therefore all DJ's have a predefined setlist to stick to and provide the venue owner with said setlist before they play and not deviate from it  to prevent the accusation that they are a live performer/entertainer?

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1 minute ago, Fionalein said:

Live recordings are not live music... not anymore - they were at the moment of recording.

I totally and wholeheartedly agree, which is part of the whole query since some SLclubs/venues apparently now tell the DJ's they can't play anything from such a live recording, because Linden's could fine them for not being registered with them for playing live music.

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10 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

but never can understand why it would be in issue if it is a once off event not recorded like DJ'ing etc in SL.

Every stream in SL is public - there is no soch thing as "streaming just insideSL" once people know the stream's URL they can listen to it outside of SL - I often do as it is less buggy than listening through the viewer.

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1 minute ago, Reba Tedeschi said:

I totally and wholeheartedly agree, which is part of the whole query since some SLclubs/venues apparently now tell the DJ's they can't play anything from such a live recording, because Linden's could fine them for not being registered with them for playing live music.

I guess it is a language barrier thing. People don't get the difference.

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

Every stream in SL is public - there is no soch thing as "streaming just insideSL" once people know the stream's URL they can listen to it outside of SL - I often do as it is less buggy than listening through the viewer.

My point would still stand in this situation though. Let me rephrase. If I played music for a party I was hosting with complete strangers in my backyard from a CD and it was loud enough for the neighbours to hear would that still be liable?

As to Reba's question it would depend in my opinion. If the DJ is simply playing pre-recorded music he/she isn't a performer. If the DJ is streaming live music as part of his gig he is still a DJ. If the DJ is mixing his own beats he is a performer.

No idea why a DJ would play live music anyway when the people can just go to the actual live event/stream.

Edited by Drayke Newall

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2 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

No idea why a DJ would play live music anyway when the people can just go to the actual live event/stream.

I never understood why people would listen to live recordings anyways - with rare exceptions like for exmaple Arlo Guthrie it usually just is worse - doesn't stop people liking it however and thus requesting it from DJs  - which brings us back on topic ...

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7 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

I never understood why people would listen to live recordings anyways - with rare exceptions like for exmaple Arlo Guthrie it usually just is worse - doesn't stop people liking it however and thus requesting it from DJs  - which brings us back on topic ...

For me a live recording is a snapshot of how the band were at that time, with no studio trickery to supplement their music, unless like some recordings it is massively overdubbed afterwards . Some artists/bands never repeat a song setlist through a tour others perform almost robotically each night, I respect the former more, means they have more songs in their repertoire to pull from.  

Live is what music is all about the artists current interpretation of the music they wrote or are known for performing. It gives a band the most incoming from their touring over a recorded set of songs for which some produce then slaves over to make a 'perfect' song. I guess it is all in the ear of the beholder *smiles*

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19 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

My point would still stand in this situation though. Let me rephrase. If I played music for a party I was hosting with complete strangers in my backyard from a CD and it was loud enough for the neighbours to hear would that still be liable?

As to Reba's question it would depend in my opinion. If the DJ is simply playing pre-recorded music he/she isn't a performer. If the DJ is streaming live music as part of his gig he is still a DJ. If the DJ is mixing his own beats he is a performer.

a quote from the thread I have already linked into this ........... Posted November 13, 2011

"This is not a huge issue and believe it or not I see it come up often since I am an I.P. Arbitrator in the real world. The stream server owners (a/k/a Provider) are the responsible party for licensing. It make no sense to pay a multi-tiered fee on a product that is already paid the dues for the end user by the provider, this process is similar to double taxation. The process you are describing would require every person that listens to the stream they need to pay the license fees since it connects to their computer through various routing of URLs. I guess in the current economy every one wants to find a way to squeeze as much money out of people as possible, even if it is grossly malicious and in the end destroys the product enjoyability."

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Which - in just about all cases - puts the responsibility for paying the fee on the third party stream services, not on Linden Lab or the DJ/Live Musician.

Linden Lab acts - in the case of clubs or user hosted events - as a Repeater. They do not provide the stream itself.

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No the responsibility is the the person who rents the stream not the company that provides it, its up the persons who stream to make sure they are legally entitled to stream music and have obtained a licences  from the ( UK) PRS and PPL as far as I am aware,  LL needs to clarity this 

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  1. No, they don't. Linden Lab is not providing streams to anyone, they are a Repeater.
  2. That's nice, if you're not sure on how that works where you're located, find out.
  3. The only clarification required here is if Linden Lab must simply adhere to the laws regarding broadcast and streaming in their home country or if they must adhere to base International Law (where applicable/such laws exist). Attempting to adhere to each individual country's laws on this matter is absolutely pointless.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, greek Wingtips said:

If you play live music  in any form , one being a dj in sl are you breaking any of the licencing laws and TOS?

When a human writes their own original music, plays their own instruments live and sings their own original words live over a music stream, that is not a copyright violation. 

When a DJ plays licensed music over the internet, to do so legally, they would do well to engage a service to help compute and pay the royalties involved.  One can search the web for keywords like the following to read about such services.  Some of the internet radio stations that serve SL use such services.

Keyword search suggestions: online radio copyright licensing service

Edited by Erwin Solo

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:
  1. The only clarification required here is if Linden Lab must simply adhere to the laws regarding broadcast and streaming in their home country or if they must adhere to base International Law (where applicable/such laws exist). Attempting to adhere to each individual country's laws on this matter is absolutely pointless.

looking at the LL legal IP infringement page :--

v. a statement that you consent to the jurisdiction of the Federal District Court for the judicial district in which your address is located (or, if the address is located outside the United States, to the jurisdiction of the United States District Court for the Northern District of California), and that you will accept service of process from the person who provided DMCA notification to us or an agent of such person;

 

So it maybe down to Northern District of California rulings regardless of your world location?

Edited by Reba Tedeschi

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