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   I'm not sure whether it's me or the topic that lost the plot. All I know is that right now, I need to listen to London After Midnight.

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Just now, Qie Niangao said:

I guess, since I was the one who first used the word "ironic" it's only fitting that I should accept some ambiguity in its interpretation.

(Still though. Fascist. That's a mighty big gun to be spinning around the card table.)

 

Like I said, would not have been my wording. :) Godwin's law alone makes use of words like 'fascist' a big no-no. I still understood what she was trying to say, though, even when worded awkwardly.

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2 minutes ago, Orwar said:

   I'm not sure whether it's me or the topic that lost the plot. All I know is that right now, I need to listen to London After Midnight.

My work is done here.

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5 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

That may well be so; I don't know. The irony is that she's defending herself completely unnecessarily against a criticism that itself makes no sense. And that's what has got her into difficulties.

I think the most important point though is that none of this actually has anything to do with HL itself, its merits or its meanings. Like so much else in this thread, it's become about personalities instead -- in this case, Djehan's.

It's a distraction. I don't care that much about the artist, one way or another. Does the installation deserve to be saved? That's the question!

 

Well, she's an artist type. :) I know they can get rather defensive about their work. As I just happened to post today, in another thread,

"People are simply very sensitive about their creations, and the slightest critique can already cause pain. As it would for me (even though there are decidedly ppl much, much better at decorating than I am). Stil, creativity is something from deep within, even god-like, after a fashion, in that the feeling of having created something of beauty is an almost euphoric experience, really.  So, critique on our creations, even the slightest, tends to fault us on our innermost level, if that makes sense."

So, she simply might have taken grave offense to someone even suggesting she used those word 'ironically' (the meaning of which she possibly misinterpreted). I would have still proof-read my own reply, and scratched the word 'fascist', but hey, that's just me.

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Posted (edited)

Isn't it funny how certain people always assume the worst intentions in their opponents and the best in their own chosen side?

"My side cannot err because that means I would err by association." is a dangerous fallacy. 

 

@kiramanell you were quick to imply I would have called Anne Frank a fascist - something I never did - yet when your protégé slips in tone and actually calls other people fascists ... there you handwave some "Lost in translation" explanation as if nothing happened. Do you actually believe in your own double standards? Do you actually realize you apply them onto others? Please don't. Treat others the way you expect to be treated...

 

Also goodnight all. Godwin's law has been invoked it won't be long until this thread combusts.

Edited by Fionalein
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Just now, Fionalein said:

Isn't it funny how certain people always assume the worst intentions in their opponents and the best in their own chosen side?

"My side cannot err because that means I would err by association." is a dangerous fallacy. 

 

@kiramanell you were quick to imply I would have called Anne Frank a fascist - something I never did - yet when your protégé slips in tone and actually calls other people fascists ... there you handwave some "Lost in translation" explanation as if nothing happened. Do you actually believe in your own double standards? Do you actually realize you apply them onto others? Please don't. Treat others the way you expect to be treated...

 

Exactly, Fiona! So, next time, be kinder, and don't assume the worst intentions in Djehan, all because her command of the English language isn't perfect. So, physician, heal thyself!

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12 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

The irony is that she's defending herself completely unnecessarily against a criticism that itself makes no sense.

Her project is about love & freedom vs a dystopian, fascist-type world -- as she said, she wants to show the darkness that could occur if we're not careful.  So if you criticize or accuse her of laughing at love and freedom (via what she chose to show the love and freedom side with -- Anne Frank's quote) then you  would be thinking she was on that other side -- the world of fascism where there is no freedom. So she defended herself by saying she's 'not that'.  

There are many places throughout the sim where she shows fascism, and she pointed this out in her text too.

Context context context

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"There are other historically relevant illustrations all over my work in the city, 911, Tien an men, the japanese kamikaze, seppuku, the war in syria, authoritarianism, fascism, antifa, WW2 resistance, slavery, basically all these things evolving around the subject of dystopia, the wars, the corrupt politicians, I am a dystopian artist, dystopia is the subject I work with, it is not happy or anything, and it can get heavily politicized."

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3 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Her project is about love & freedom vs a dystopian, fascist-type world -- as she said, she wants to show the darkness that could occur if we're not careful.  So if you criticize or accuse her of laughing at love and freedom (via what she chose to show the love and freedom side with -- Anne Frank's quote) then you  would be thinking she was on that other side -- the world of fascism where there is no freedom. So she defended herself by saying she's 'not that'.  

There are many places throughout the sim where she shows fascism, and she pointed this out in her text too.

Context context context

 

That's actually a pretty good point, and one I completly missed. :) 

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8 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Her project is about love & freedom vs a dystopian, fascist-type world -- as she said, she wants to show the darkness that could occur if we're not careful.  So if you criticize or accuse her of laughing at love and freedom (via what she chose to show the love and freedom side with -- Anne Frank's quote) then you  would be thinking she was on that other side -- the world of fascism where there is no freedom. So she defended herself by saying she's 'not that'.  

There are many places throughout the sim where she shows fascism, and she pointed this out in her text too.

Context context context

Her project may well be about, as you say, "love & freedom vs a dystopian, fascist-type world," but if it is, it's not because she says so, but because those are the meanings that the installation itself produces. And -- to follow up on a point Qie has made -- because art is immensely complicated, it generally also produces ambiguity. If you could reduce the meaning of a work of art to a one-liner on a museum label ("love & freedom vs a dystopian, fascist-type world"), there'd be no point in the art itself; we could just read the official "meaning," nod complacently, and skip past the hard work of actually experiencing and interpreting it for ourselves. And those acts of interpretation, and the experience, have to come from us, and not be spoon-fed to us by an artist who wants us to read it a particular way.

To repeat, I don't much care what people say about her. As I've noted elsewhere, some (probably most!) of the great artists, writers, musicians, and performers were first rate jerks. I can understand why she would want to defend herself, of course -- but the first thing she should say in response is that personal attacks on her are diversionary stratagems designed to get around dealing with the art itself. It's way easier to dismiss Oscar Wilde, as he was dismissed, as a "degenerate," than it is to show how that is reflected in his art.

And, in the final analysis, we are not talking about funding Djehan; we are talking about funding what she has created. There's an academic interest in understanding what she thinks she's produced, and how it evolved in the process of creation, but we are not, finally, putting her on display in the centre of a cluster of 5 regions.

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22 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

Do you actually believe in your own double standards? Do you actually realize you apply them onto others? 

 

Actually, LOL, yeah, I do. Except, it's just the same standard. But I should hope, that should I ever frequent a French forum or something, that they'll cut me some slack on the language too (it's been a while). Ce n'est qu'un juste retour des choses. :) 

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Her project may well be about, as you say, "love & freedom vs a dystopian, fascist-type world," but if it is, it's not because she says so, but because those are the meanings that the installation itself produces...........

That's a bit too much word-misturbation for me, Scylla -- despite my complexity I'm a "get to the point kind of gal" lol
However, I have a funny story kind of related to your thoughts. I knew this woman online, had the funnest time with her, visiting poetry sights and sharing our thoughts. Her fav poetry to write was called "experimental poetry", and she'd read it to me and I'd interpret it, tell her what I thought it meant. I'd beg and beg for her to tell me the real meaning and she'd laaaaf gleefully the more disturbed I would get and beg her for the meaning. lol
Her mission was to have others do with the poem as they may, and she'd never reveal any intent.

Edited by Luna Bliss

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

If you could reduce the meaning of a work of art to a one-liner on a museum label ("love & freedom vs a dystopian, fascist-type world"), there'd be no point in the art itself; we could just read the official "meaning," nod complacently, and skip past the hard work of actually experiencing and interpreting it for ourselves.

But there's always an essence.

Edited by Luna Bliss

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1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

No.

  • Nobody ever called her fascist. Ever. Not one time.
  • Nobody ever suggested any disrespect for Anne Frank or the quote used here.
  • Nobody ever suggested it was inappropriate to use the quote.

I really do not want to revisit this all over again.

It's not necessary that this creator understood how, in a dystopian setting, the use of that particular quote from Anne Frank could have been ironic, and still be completely respectful and even very moving.

But then came the convoluted contrafactual, that if the creator had meant it that way, that creator must be fascist. That was problematic.

 

Things got twisted around. I don't need you to tell me what I already know. And if you really didn't want to revisit it you could have chosen not to post.

I've been in this thread since the beginning. Just because others don't see what I have doesn't mean it didn't happen. 

One person worded something so poorly it was understood to mean Djehan is a facist and that is what start this whole bull***** argument. I doesn't matter if you believe it or not. It is what it is.

Don't bother. I won't see it.

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12 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

To repeat, I don't much care what people say about her.

Yes, I feel the same, but we need to guard against people who don't make that distinction. I mean we've had a couple people enter this thread saying they won't even visit the project now because of how one person (who is not even a primary member) defended the place. 

Naked people, activists converging on Berlin.  Really.

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15 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Don't bother. I won't see it.

Finally. Now my work really is done here.

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, kiramanell said:

Actually, LOL, yeah, I do. Except, it's just the same standard. But I should hope, that should I ever frequent a French forum or something, that they'll cut me some slack on the language too (it's been a while). Ce n'est qu'un juste retour des choses. :) 

 

Come to think of it, I think it actually behooves me to explain this one a bit, cuz I think I was being so subtle, that no one noticed. :) Ce n'est qu'un juste retour des choses is actully the WRONG expression. It's the French equivalent of 'Turnabout is fair play.' That's not exactly what I meant to express, but had I posted it like that, on a French forum, I think ppl, with a bit of good will, would have forgiven me, and well understood what I actually intended to say -- 'with a bit of good will' being the operative phrase here.

Edited by kiramanell
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Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

That's a bit too much word-misturbation for me, Scylla -- despite my complexity I'm a "get to the point kind of gal" lol

I'm not quite sure what that means, Luna. My point -- interpret the work, not the artist or the artist's pronouncements -- is neither particularly radical nor very complicated.

33 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

However, I have a funny story kind of related to your thoughts. I knew this woman online, had the funnest time with her, visiting poetry sights and sharing our thoughts. Her fav poetry to write was called "experimental poetry", and she'd read it to me and I'd interpret it, tell her what I thought it meant. I'd beg and beg for her to tell me the real meaning and she'd laaaaf gleefully the more disturbed I would get and beg her for the meaning. lol
Her mission was to have others do with the poem as they may, and she'd never reveal any intent.

I have students who do this -- who just want the bullet points about what a literary work "means," as though you could condense the complicated net of linguistic effects, narrative, and allusion into a neat little package ready for regurgitation on an exam. That's just not how art works. Even bad art is often bad for complicated reasons.

I don't think, however, that asking readers/viewers to do the work of interpretation themselves is quite the same thing as making of the art whatever they will. There's always a subjective element in any thing we perceive and parse, of course -- but if you read 1984 and conclude that it advocates for a fascist state, you are demonstrably wrong. Ultimately, your "work" in interpretation is a bit like detective work: you build your case from the evidence.

Edited by Scylla Rhiadra

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2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:
34 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I'd beg and beg for her to tell me the real meaning and she'd laaaaf gleefully the more disturbed I would get and beg her for the meaning. lol
Her mission was to have others do with the poem as they may, and she'd never reveal any intent.

I have students who do this -- who just want the bullet points about what a literary work "means," as though you could condense the complicated net of linguistic effects, narrative, and allusion into a neat little package ready for regurgitation on an exam. That's just not how art works. Even bad art is often bad for complicated reasons.

But the poems were about me   :)

BTW, no need to tell me how art works.    Thanks.

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, kiramanell said:

Come to think of it, I think it actually behooves me to explain this one a bit, cuz I think I was being so subtle, that no one noticed. :) Ce n'est qu'un juste retour des choses is actully the WRONG expression. It's the French equivalent of 'Turnabout is fair play.' That's not exactly what I meant to express, but had I posted it like that, on a French forum, I think ppl, with a bit of good will, would have forgiven me, and well understood what I actually intended to say -- 'with a bit of good will' being the operative phrase here.

Yes, good will, especially toward a non-native speaker, instead of pedantically picking apart a sentence from someone and assuming we know exactly what they mean. There's something very offensive about doing that, something more than just the fact they are at a disadvantage as a non-native speaker.  I can't quite put my finger on it, but it's like running a test on someone in a distant way, without their knowledge, and without any concern for them or what you've decided the 'tests' reveal.  It's an abuse of power, I guess that's what bugs me.

Edited by Luna Bliss
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1 hour ago, Selene Gregoire said:

One person worded something so poorly it was understood to mean Djehan is a facist and that is what start this whole bull***** argument. I doesn't matter if you believe it or not. It is what it is.

I may need a couple days or a free weekend to parse this thread.  Is it better than Netflix?

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17 minutes ago, Kiera Clutterbuck said:

I may need a couple days or a free weekend to parse this thread.  Is it better than Netflix?

On a drama scale of 1 - 10 with 10 being highest... it rates about a -5.

On the other hand, drama isn't my thing so I am overly critical of all things drama.

I'm really not joking. ok... Just a wee bit. 

Netflix would probably be better.

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1 minute ago, Kiera Clutterbuck said:

It seems to rate 10 for confusion, or maybe it's just late, but of course it helps to start at the beginning!

34 pages... hope you're a fast reader.

Or else.

50pages.gif.b062154e6cafd9b7f735b28a38e5c1ad.gif

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