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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Polenth Yue said:

When the thread first started, I might have visited the place. After the way this thread was handled, I rapidly changed my mind. The mildest criticism got accusations of being a copybotter or jealous or whatever else. There are regular digs at other people, whether it's other creators (who'll never be worthy and aren't real artists), people on the mainland (because if you can't afford a sim, you're nothing) or adult sims (which mainly seems to be a dig at the idea that people might do something for fun... adult sims aren't my idea of fun either, but it doesn't harm art for people to have other hobbies).

You don't have to set up the sim creator as the one true artist in Second Life for people to appreciate the work. It's not actually necessary to bring others down to raise someone else up. I've been supported by a lot of creators who do very different stuff to me. It didn't harm them in the slightest to see value in my work.

All round, my impression from the regulars of this sim in this thread is that they feel they're the elite, who are descending from on high to mingle with the commoners, because it turns out those commoners have money. If that's not the desired impression, less of the accusations and random digs at other people would go a long way. It really wouldn't hurt to show a little bit of respect to the people who are being asked to pay money.

Quoting in the hopes that the above sinks in - that is the end result of how some have been responding here can and will be taken.

Edited by Solar Legion
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10 minutes ago, Orwar said:

   Anyone who claims to have a 'true' definition of art is burping dogmatic axioms. Study away if you like, and come back when you've got some meat to that argument other than opinionated jargon.

There is, in fact, a philosophy of Aesthetics, but it's of much more interest to philosophers than to artists or even curators. Maybe that's inherent to modern philosophy.

If there's anything to be learned from studying the history of art, it's that each generation invalidates something about previous generations' assessments of artistic merit. Maybe that's inherent to doing art.

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14 minutes ago, Polenth Yue said:

When the thread first started, I might have visited the place. After the way this thread was handled, I rapidly changed my mind. The mildest criticism got accusations of being a copybotter or jealous or whatever else.

I visited and it's quite an accomplishment. TDD is not the best spokesperson to put it mildly, and he is just a visitor who likes the sims and does not appear to represent Hangars in any way.

I do agree with much of what you said, and if I were the creator of Hangars I would request that TDD not speak for Hangars anymore.

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1 minute ago, Kiera Clutterbuck said:

I visited and it's quite an accomplishment. TDD is not the best spokesperson to put it mildly, and he is just a visitor who likes the sims and does not appear to represent Hangars in any way.

I do agree with much of what you said, and if I were the creator of Hangars I would request that TDD not speak for Hangars anymore.

He's not the only one who has done a bad or questionable "job" ...

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Just now, Solar Legion said:

He's not the only one who has done a bad or questionable "job" ...

Lawrence was pretty good overall. Slight defensiveness in a couple places. But hey, cut him some slack, he's new, and it's not easy to come up against this crowd here eh?   

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1 minute ago, Kiera Clutterbuck said:

Lawrence was pretty good overall. Slight defensiveness in a couple places. But hey, cut him some slack, he's new, and it's not easy to come up against this crowd here eh?   

I suppose and if being honest I'd say far more than "slight" defensiveness.

Meh, hopefully this was a learning experience for all involved, though I am not holding my breath as I have a rather dim view of Humanity and of Human Nature.

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1 minute ago, Qie Niangao said:

There is, in fact, a philosophy of Aesthetics, but it's of much more interest to philosophers than to artists or even curators. Maybe that's inherent to modern philosophy.

   There are, in fact, multiple philosophies of aesthetics, many of which directly contradict each other.

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Just now, Orwar said:

   There are, in fact, multiple philosophies of aesthetics, many of which directly contradict each other.

Well now that is the definition of philosophy.

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Posted (edited)

 

39 minutes ago, Polenth Yue said:

When the thread first started, I might have visited the place. After the way this thread was handled, I rapidly changed my mind. The mildest criticism got accusations of being a copybotter or jealous or whatever else. There are regular digs at other people, whether it's other creators (who'll never be worthy and aren't real artists), people on the mainland (because if you can't afford a sim, you're nothing) or adult sims (which mainly seems to be a dig at the idea that people might do something for fun... adult sims aren't my idea of fun either, but it doesn't harm art for people to have other hobbies).

You don't have to set up the sim creator as the one true artist in Second Life for people to appreciate the work. It's not actually necessary to bring others down to raise someone else up. I've been supported by a lot of creators who do very different stuff to me. It didn't harm them in the slightest to see value in my work.

All round, my impression from the regulars of this sim in this thread is that they feel they're the elite, who are descending from on high to mingle with the commoners, because it turns out those commoners have money. If that's not the desired impression, less of the accusations and random digs at other people would go a long way. It really wouldn't hurt to show a little bit of respect to the people who are being asked to pay money.

Completely agreed.

I'm sure the sim is lovely, I'm sure the artist is wonderful and talented, but I have absolutely zero interest in this sim due to the toxic community and completely petty and unprofessional official representation. They are all doing a disservice to the person (and art) they want to help and support.

Edited by Klackie Alsop
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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

I was trying to make a quite different point, actually, and separately to pose a quite different question. I'll try again.

The point was, of all the ways a non-profit might supplement a donation of discounted land, rental income is by far the most problematic. That's what the girl scout cookie analogy was trying to illustrate, and why it hinges on the generous donor being in the business that the recipient chooses as a side-hustle using the donation itself to compete with the donor.

Sure, it's all small scale here, in the cosmic scheme of things, but still: How would you feel if you were a huge New York City landlord who gave space to a gallery, only to discover they'd turned most of it into apartments? Sure, maybe that gallery attracts some folks to your own apartments, too, but maybe you'd planned on that all along, it was why you gave the space in the first place, not expecting the benefit to also be used against you.

Sorry Qie, your point was much more nuanced than I originally picked up on.

Two questions in response, I guess. First, in what sense are small-scale rentals to individuals actually competing with LL? You mean in terms of Linden Homes? That's a rather different model, surely? Or do you mean mainland sales? Arguably it does compete indirectly by challenging the land barons who are themselves the actual landlords, so I can see the argument that it might, I'm a pretty small way, eat into the market for estates and large mainland holdings.

My second question is really just . . . aren't you just describing the central problem of LL's whole revenue model? And probably the reason that they are pushing Premium right now?

3 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

But Richie Rich Moneybags was a whole different hypothetical, nothing to do with that special problem with rent. I'm not worrying about him exploiting a precedent intended only for the deserving, starving artists. Rather, I'm asking whether our starving artists would still be happy with an arrangement that saves all the art if that same arrangement is offered to any ol' money-grubbing capitalist. That's to pose the question: Is it the art that's important? or the special treatment of artists?

Would our artists feel they deserve an even better deal, if this one were available to other folks they don't consider as artistic as themselves?

Yeah, this is a whole different issue, and one I think is difficult to answer. I do think that attitudes towards the arts generally have shifted in the last 50 years or more, towards a sort of culture of entitlement or dependency (the nasty way to see it) or, alternately, one of inherently public "service" whereby the "intangible value of art" becomes an excuse to avoid talking about its actual contributions to society, and its place within the larger economic structures. And in that sense, maybe, artists have come to expect "special treatment." Sometimes.

I don't actually know that that is true within SL, where the lines between art and the more mundane business of building attractive places is very blurry sometimes. But it's a worthwhile question to ask.

My own feeling is that most artists in SL just want access to the space and resources to do their thing, and look for special consideration only where that becomes a requirement of their work. And that surely was the case with HL: the pressure for special treatment is the result of the system that was in place no longer working -- admittedly because the special treatment has been threatened. But I don't have the sense that there is an expectation that they deserve "better"?

Edited by Scylla Rhiadra
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14 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Two questions in response, I guess. First, in what sense are small-scale rentals to individuals actually competing with LL? You mean in terms of Linden Homes? That's a rather different model, surely? Or do you mean mainland sales? Arguably it does compete indirectly by challenging the land barons who are themselves the actual landlords, so I can see the argument that it might, I'm a pretty small way, eat into the market for estates and large mainland holdings.

No single instance is going to matter, sure, but nobody could assert that Hangars is the only deserving work of art on the grid. I guess if LL wants to tailor a custom solution for them and only them, that would be tolerable, but then there could be no principled justification for it: it's just a one-off business decision and one that frankly wouldn't matter to me. Sure, Hangars is fine, it would be too bad if it vanished, but I'd gladly see it gone if that somehow magically advanced the larger cause of promoting and protecting art in SL.

Scaled up, the "go ahead and rent out our discounted land" approach is not sustainable.

There's not an important distinction between Linden Homes, Mainland landlords, Estate barons, whatever: they're all producing revenue for LL based on its Land product. Some also involve partners who help the Lab address specific markets with that product. If there are enough deserving art projects taking money from that flow -- that is, if god forbid the program succeeds -- the whole system collapses.

My second question is really just . . . aren't you just describing the central problem of LL's whole revenue model? And probably the reason that they are pushing Premium right now?

l'm not following that reasoning, sorry. I mean, yeah, the near total reliance on revenue from the Land product is sure a big problem, but in context it's just that this is why the most valuable thing the Lab can donate to a non-profit is discount on Land. If instead of Land the Lab's cash cow were a 30% transaction fee on sales, the only meaningful thing they could donate to non-profits would be a discounted fee on gift shop sales -- and it would be every bit as sleazy for the non-profit to turn around and sell everybody else's stuff on consignment, again undercutting the donor with the very donation itself.

Yeah, this is a whole different issue, and one I think is difficult to answer. I do think that attitudes towards the arts generally have shifted in the last 50 years or more, towards a sort of culture of entitlement or dependency (the nasty way to see it) or, alternately, one of inherently public "service" whereby the "intangible value of art" becomes an excuse to avoid talking about its actual contributions to society, and its place within the larger economic structures. And in that sense, maybe, artists have come to expect "special treatment." Sometimes.

I don't actually know that that is true within SL, where the lines between art and the more mundane business of building attractive places is very blurry sometimes. But it's a worthwhile question to ask.

My own feeling is that most artists in SL just want access to the space and resources to do their thing, and look for special consideration only where that becomes a requirement of their work. And that surely was the case with HL: the pressure for special treatment is the result of the system that was in place no longer working -- admittedly because the special treatment has been threatened. But I don't have the sense that there is an expectation that they deserve "better"?

In general I think that's true enough, but I'm afraid I have a very different impression from the posts on this thread. Surely that "William Gibson Slept Here" plaque must entitle the bearer to extra waffle syrup!

 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

[Lots of valid stuff with which I mostly agree]

Ok, so the main burden of your argument is that the "solution" proposed for HL is, as you say, "not scalable," or sustainable in the sense that a wider application of these principles could, perhaps inevitably would, cut into LL's bottom line to a ruinous extent. Am I getting that right?

It's hard to argue with that. I'm not entirely convinced that LL couldn't devise a set of criteria to ensure that this solution isn't available for anyone other than a very small set of creators/artists. Possibly this might be based on NPO status in RL, but I don't honestly know how easy it is to achieve that, so I don't know that that's a safe solution. And there are certainly problems, as we saw with LEA, with an arms-length delegation of responsibility to a "committee." So, yes, applying this idea beyond single instances such HL is going to be problematic, or even potentially dangerous.

So, what do you think might work? That's not a sort of throwing down of the gauntlet: I'm genuinely interested to know if you have in mind another model that would work sustainably and effectively to, as you say, advance "the larger cause of promoting and protecting art in SL."

3 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

In general I think that's true enough, but I'm afraid I have a very different impression from the posts on this thread. Surely that "William Gibson Slept Here" plaque must entitle the bearer to extra waffle syrup!

LOL

I wish we were having this discussion in a slightly less toxic and balkanized environment: it's almost impossible to consider the larger issues while ignoring the flames all round.

Honestly, I'm not sure I care that much about the attitudes of artists and their supporters. I'd certainly agree that HL has not been very well-represented by at least a few of its supporters here, but that's really just an unfortunate distraction. Cellini was a psychotic murderer, and Degas a raving antisemite: I'm not going to give either a free pass for being horrible people merely because they were both great artists, but I'm also not willing to lose their art because it was created by monsters.

Of course, no one here has been quite in that league -- but ultimately, what we need here is a set of principles and a mechanism to determine, not so much whether HL survives, but rather how LL can best support cases like HL's. Making that determination -- and I know that you aren't -- based on the deportment of Poster X and Poster Y would be counterproductive.

Edited by Scylla Rhiadra
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7 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Sorry Qie, your point was much more nuanced than I originally picked up on.

Two questions in response, I guess. First, in what sense are small-scale rentals to individuals actually competing with LL? You mean in terms of Linden Homes? That's a rather different model, surely? Or do you mean mainland sales? Arguably it does compete indirectly by challenging the land barons who are themselves the actual landlords, so I can see the argument that it might, I'm a pretty small way, eat into the market for estates and large mainland holdings.

 

Yeah, that was kinda what I was trying to say too: that 60 LI rental spaces, at, what, 1/3rd the prim allowance of an old Linden home (at 175 LI), isn't likely to send LL to the poor house. Currently, 13 of those spaces are taken/reserved (with the minimal amount needed almost reached), for a whopping 780 LI. So, I'd definitely call that 'low-density' rental activity on the scale of 5 sims (altogether good for 40,000 LI: 1 full region + 4 homesteads).

Do I understand Qie's point? Of course I do. And it's a good one: generating income from a difference source is one thing, but from the same source as LL is 'competing in the same business.' I'm just saying, let's keep some perspective on the scale here. Personally, I see those rentals more as a token of appreciation for contributing than anything else, really; but even if ppl insist on seeing it as 'business', at 780 LI, out of 40,000 LI total, they're still just token rentals, really.

As for art, way I see it, art is just what ppl think is art (or, in this practical case, what ppl are willing to pay to see it preserved). And I think we should probably leave it at that, as defining art otherwise -- or worse, trying to determine who is an artist and who isn't -- often devolves into an unproductive series of recriminations, that only derails the purpose of this thread, IMHO. Apparently several musea around the world consider Djehan an artist. That's good enough for me. And, like I said, at the end of the day, what really only matters, is whether someone personally thinks HL is worth preserving. I think it is.

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6 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Ok, so the main burden of your argument is that the "solution" proposed for HL is, as you say, "not scalable," or sustainable in the sense that a wider application of these principles could, perhaps inevitably would, cut into LL's bottom line to a ruinous extent. Am I getting that right?

Just one thing I kinda need to correct: I'm not objecting to the "'solution' proposed" at least as I think we understand it. I mean, I can quibble that it's still mildly distorting, and I've tried to make that point, but all my recent text has been intended to support the Lab's general principle that no commercial activities including rental units should be on discount-receiving regions themselves. I don't think that's part of Hangar's future, but I do think there are still some supporters who feel they've been done wrong by the Lab. I feel they've been treated exceptionally well (but of course we don't know the whole history and are only speculating what's currently on offer).

Just a final point: I still hope, following the early suggestion of @Mollymews, that the Lab will seriously consider opening up the "one discounted non-commercial region for every four full-priced Homesteads" to all, not only non-profits. It not only tidies up that bit of mild market distortion that remains but I think it might be a big seller for the Lab and result in some nice rental properties surrounding regions the owners will need to fill with something non-commercial. Maybe they'd choose art. Or role-play. Or both.

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22 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Personally, I'd have loved to have seen more of AM Radio's work preserved

I still miss The Quiet 😢

Met the most peculiar (in a good way) people there...

the quiet.png

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7 hours ago, kiramanell said:

As for art, way I see it, art is just what ppl think is art (or, in this practical case, what ppl are willing to pay to see it preserved). And I think we should probably leave it at that, as defining art otherwise -- or worse, trying to determine who is an artist and who isn't -- often devolves into an unproductive series of recriminations, that only derails the purpose of this thread, IMHO. Apparently several musea around the world consider Djehan an artist. That's good enough for me. And, like I said, at the end of the day, what really only matters, is whether someone personally thinks HL is worth preserving. I think it is.

Yeah, I think trying to define "art" is a bit of a mugs game, and one that we've been at, in the West anyway, for nearly 2500 years without reaching a consensus.

Personally, I'm not sure I'd call HL "art"? It's an amazing looking sim, and clearly a work of major imagination, but (for me!) it doesn't seem to have the unifying vision that one did get, for instance, from an AM Radio sim. I think I'd call HL more like a "canvas": an inspired space upon which to write performance art (through role play or just immersion).

BUT I also think that, ultimately, it's unimportant whether we call it "art" or not. The label has, for sure, cultural value attached to it, but I'm much more interested in the larger question: do we lose something important, something imaginative and enabling and inspiring by its disappearance. And I think the answer is "yes," whether we think it belongs in a glass case in a gallery or museum or not.

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5 minutes ago, Akane Nacht said:

I still miss The Quiet 😢

Met the most peculiar (in a good way) people there...

The Faraway will always have a special place in my heart, because it was my first introduction (pretty much everyone's first introduction) to his work. But The Quiet would definitely run a close second. It was gorgeous, and it had a kind of literal, spatial depth to it that really made it possible to lose yourself there.

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I spent a half hour at HL recently to see what I've been missing. It's impressive in scale, but otherwise does nothing for me. Whatever ambience I might have felt from the imagery was immediately hijacked by the parcel audio stream, showing just how wrong "a picture is worth a thousand words" can be.

In contrast, it took only 30 seconds for me to fall into AM Radio's works, or Jenne Dibou and Mandy Marseille's fantastic Forgotten City, where I lived for years. Forgotten City was full of wonderful Easter Eggs, like the Gollum who vacuumed the town square or the vanishing automaton who walked the avenue, lighting the gas lamps.

Beauty, of course, is in the eye of the beholder, and I won't begrudge anyone their desire to preserve things that mean something to them. But SL is, by nature, ephemeral. Like carving a pumpkin or building a sandcastle, the joy of SL for me is in the creating, not the having.

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Scylla posted about it already too; so, now it's my turn to be curious, and I'm really going to have to see what this 'AM Radio' thingy is all about. 😃

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Just now, kiramanell said:

Scylla posted about it already too; so, now it's my turn to be curious, and I'm really going to have to see what this 'AM Radio' thingy is all about. 😃

There needs to be an “8-Track City”.

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36 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

AM Radio sim. I think I'd call HL more like a "canvas":

For an artist, a region is a canvas. Ergo, SL is a canvas. Which means AM's stuff was also done "on canvas" just as HL is "on  canvas."

Signed,

One unknown artist in a sea of millions of unknown artists.

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10 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

In contrast, it took only 30 seconds for me to fall into AM Radio's works, or Jenne Dibou and Mandy Marseille's fantastic Forgotten City, where I lived for years. Forgotten City was full of wonderful Easter Eggs, like the Gollum who vacuumed the town square or the vanishing automaton who walked the avenue, lighting the gas lamps.

   I loved Forgotten City.

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I love the natural landscapes better, such as the A.M.Radio works cited, and don't particularly like cyberpunk. Cyberpunk is a kind of sci-fi apocalyptic vision, where machines have taken over after the crash of capitalism. I love nature and hope we never arrive at this "metal hell", although I know many are excited about these machines -- maybe they need some sort of hope as we see RL in such chaos & crumbling atm.

HL creates the mood of cyberpunk very well -- there's an overall gloomy feel with towering buildings taking prominence -- only a small spot of nature on a bottom level seems to point to the past.  It is unifying in its presentation (and harmonious), and creates emotion, and so I'd call it 'art' because of this. It took skill to create it, and that is another attribute we use to determine if something is artistic. Is it unique? Uniqueness is another characteristic used to define art, and while a cyberpunk city is not unique I'd say this city is unique for SL (at least one this large, and done with this much skill).

I feel very sad when visiting there, kind of lost...and strangely, a sense of beauty too.

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