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25 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

As to the NDA thing, sure maybe for a TPV but for something like this I highly doubt it.

I don't. It's a standard business practice.

SLU is now VVO and covers all VWs, VR and AR. It's not just for SL anymore.

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Just now, Selene Gregoire said:

I don't. It's a standard business practice.

SLU is now VVO and covers all VWs, VR and AR. It's not just for SL anymore.

Would have to be the quickest NDA creation in history then, with one being prepared, looked over by lawyers on both sides, argued upon and signed off on all in the space of a week. But maybe it did happen. Doesn't matter, it is not illegal or against the terms of an NDA to say "we are under an NDA and cant tell anything further than what has been said". That mere statement in itself would have probably meant this thread would have ended on page 10.

Yes, am aware of SLU being VVO but unfortunately with the change over they lost some of that flair they had.

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1 hour ago, Drayke Newall said:

Would have to be the quickest NDA creation in history then, with one being prepared, looked over by lawyers on both sides, argued upon and signed off on all in the space of a week. But maybe it did happen. Doesn't matter, it is not illegal or against the terms of an NDA to say "we are under an NDA and cant tell anything further than what has been said". That mere statement in itself would have probably meant this thread would have ended on page 10.

Yes, am aware of SLU being VVO but unfortunately with the change over they lost some of that flair they had.

Sorry. I'm not going to bother saying anything more since you apparently are not listening and do not want to hear. If you don't want to listen to real life knowledge and experience, that's on you.

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Sorry. I'm not going to bother saying anything more since you apparently are not listening and do not want to hear. If you don't want to listen to real life knowledge and experience, that's on you.

Sigh.. I run a RL business and use them all the time. I think I know how they work. 😉 But even if there was one still stand by my point all they needed to say is there was one in place and everyone would have dropped asking questions.

Edited by Drayke Newall

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2 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

[regarding NDAs] But even if there was one still stand by my point all they needed to say is there was one in place and everyone would have dropped asking questions.

Right, that's why I mentioned the "double secret" NDA. I can imagine LL using a boilerplate NDA* ready to attach to some unique business arrangement on offer, and given the timeframe it would have to be "take it or leave it" rather than language negotiated between lawyers, but I have never known such an agreement to include the existence of the agreement itself as part of the protected information covered by the agreement. (But I am not a lawyer, so I guess anything is possible.)

__________________
*I'm always reluctant to agree to these standard non-disclosure terms, particularly non-mutual agreements where there's nothing the other party is agreeing to keep secret. Call me paranoid, but I've declined some dealings with Linden Lab because of this.

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23 hours ago, Lawrence Celestalis said:

I'll make my very last post here, because you seem very authoritarian in your judgements. Is that an order? So let me ask you, are you a moderator here, or are you in charge of any superior power in the forum? If so, please be so kind to state it. Or are you a forum member like anybody else? If the latter is true, then your opinions are as good as anybody else, and same goes when you say HL people fabricated things. I've read endless assumptions and fabrications not responding to reality, and all those seem okay to you. City supporters have come to me horrified by some of the users in the thread and even more committed to support. One last thing, I've read about discounts under the table, this has never been the case with HL, which has always paid all that was due. 

The problem here is that you are making two distinct and arguably opposing points in this thread:

  • People shouldn't make assumptions, as those assumptions are often wrong
  • I don't have to give you an explanation for anything; and I'm also choosing not to

You can't have it both ways! People will make assumptions, hopefully extrapolated from the facts they do have. If those assumptions are wrong, then you either need to explain why, or just accept that assumptions will continue to be made. That choice is yours, of course; but you don't get to double-dip and have no assumptions while you provide no explanations.

Exhibit A: my query. I used my knowledge of Linden Lab's policies surrounding discounted tier, my knowledge of what Djehan wrote on the Indiegogo page, and I made an assumption of how one applied to the other. That assumption was wrong; or more accurately, it was irrelevant. Djehan's post was unclear on a minor technical point ("regions" referring to both regions and homesteads); when this was pointed out and the napkin math rerun, it became clear that there was no discrepancy between the two pieces of factual knowledge that I had, so everything was happy and wonderful.

Ideally this would have been pointed out to me, by yourself or any of the other active supporters of Hangars Liquides. Instead I was accused of trying to smear the sim with lies, for having the temerity to have a legitimate query about how the rules were being applied in this case (as that could have set a precedent that would impact other sims). These same people then insisted that they knew the answer to my question, but weren't going to tell me because... I honestly have no idea what justification they could have had here.

But I'm glad that the fundraiser is within ~200 Euros of its target with almost a week to go, looks like the sim will remain open for at least the next six months, which is good news :)

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9 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

Oh how I miss reading SL Universe's forums. As you say even if he didn't post on their forums it would have been a hoot to read the reaction thread on those forums to this one.

As to the NDA thing, sure maybe for a TPV but for something like this I highly doubt it.

Heh, if you havent already, look for VirtualVerse One. It's SLU rebranded/relaunched.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, AyelaNewLife said:

But I'm glad that the fundraiser is within ~200 Euros of its target with almost a week to go, looks like the sim will remain open for at least the next six months, which is good news :)

The sim is still under threat with possible immediate cancellation ; the target is not made and I am too drained to fund anymore.

There are still backers out there severely needed !!

This specific call-out, now made by me without representing the owner,  is meant for those willing.

Please don't let one of SL's  most prolific cyberpunk sims, in my humble subjective opinion, vanish.

HL_110.thumb.png.94a1b7204fdf19ffebb89999e33c24d3.png

HL_057.thumb.png.12a9feb8ebe010e023719162218e45d2.png

 

 

Thank you for the, obviously from your perspective, postive reminder.

 

Edited by TDD123
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4 minutes ago, TDD123 said:

The sim is still under threat with possible immediate cancellation

I finally managed to visit, and this is definitely a very beautiful project, artistically done, and I don't even particularly like cyberpunk  :)It would really be a shame to see it vanish.

Can you describe again the best ways to contribute?

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Can you describe again the best ways to contribute?

Moderation will not allow direct links ; a post prior of mine was edited because of that.

The link to the fundraiser can be found either in my forum signature or within my SL profile.

Afaik there still are posts in this thread perhaps left which refer to this link.

I hope you understand I'm not avoiding your question, but try to be discrete so you will find the link's reference best .. ;)

( ETA : you were completely right about my modus operandi descirbed earlier by you. Thanks. )

Edited by TDD123
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What kind of art collective is this? Did someone say it was in France? But that's why you get a discount right, because it is non-profit and you teach or help artists there?

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Posted (edited)
51 minutes ago, Dhyaanee said:

What kind of art collective is this? Did someone say it was in France? But that's why you get a discount right, because it is non-profit and you teach or help artists there?

Hi,

You would need to take up those quesitons with others representing the sim although I did meet it's creator.

The creator is a real life artist expositioning in the real world regarding VR and AR. Hangars Liquides, names after a French music label, is one of her digital works as such. Problem for her is this digital artwork, made years ago, cannot just be exported to the outside world or other digital environments ( reasons the creator could describe a lot better, but I am, again, not at liberty to speak for her here. )

The creator / artist is licensed as such in France as a non-profit. Which gives her, by international standards, the same status as a non-profit the U.S. and  in Second Life. Lindenlab expects certain conduct regarding non-profits in SL, who register as such.

But you need your specific questions about that forwarded to them or their ToS.

Reasons over discounts and ToS and Lindenlab are also not my subject. I simply cannot answer that for you.  It's highly and vigorously debated here. The topic over discounts seems to be a sensitive one as far as I've experienced in this thread and perhaps will set an important precedent to others in the direct future.

The purpose of this particular sim is that it is an actual work of art. The whole sim with regions  in t's current state.And has had real world recognition as such. That recognition has been granted, it had public appearances and showcases at what was possible in Second Life. Regarding the educational status of that I can, again, give you no good answer. I could drag on about how this sim refers to anything great about cybernetic, cyberpunk, dystopia, French scifi-culture, American SciFi culture, cinemaphotography. Names like Fritz Lang, Moebius, Ridley Scott ( Bladerunner ), Verne ) .. thousands of things come to my mind when seeing it.

It teaches one a lot. Qualifies for me as educational.

 

To my understanding a non-profit may not generate persnoal income in real life. That was never the creators intend. Any commercial activity she ever did, AFAIK,  was to compensate for the minimal costs to square even. She cannot fund this sim by personal means. ETA : There is a fundraiser campaign  now going on to cover the expenses for the coming half year, due August 1st.

Again .. this all from my subjective SL end-user point of view.

Edited by TDD123
fundraiser / speeling
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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, TDD123 said:

The creator / artist is licensed as such in France as a non-profit. Which gives her, by international standards, the same status as a non-profit the U.S. and  in Second Life. Lindenlab expects certain conduct regarding non-profits in SL.

   Such as being non-profit. Rentals is a profit. That's what has caused the majority of the 'heated discussion' in this thread; they can't have the cake and eat the cake. Land rental is perhaps the biggest money spinner in SL, and if this project can both receive the non-profit discount for their land, AND rent out homes and stores, then that's an unfair economical advantage towards the 'land barons' as well as anyone who privately rent out their land.

   I don't know, and since neither Lawrence or the creator themselves care to answer the many times asked question, we can only assume that this is the terms of the TOA for a non-profit region that has been breached, in which case having to pay for the regions just like anyone else is entirely self-caused and just. The defensive line of the supporters has rather constantly been "it's art", which is a very vague term; I'm not disputing the beauty of the build, I think it looks amazing - but that's not the point.

   I'm not an expert in French law, but I'm pretty sure that "non-profit" means "non-profit" there, as well.

Edited by Orwar

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1 minute ago, Orwar said:

The defensive line of the supporters has rather constantly been "it's art", which is a very vague term; I'm not disputing the beauty of the build, I think it looks amazing - but that's not the point.

Picking out this one particularly.

Yes Orwar, that IS the point. And it's everything but vague. The sim has had critical appraisal from  art critics and admirers in the real world.  You can check that out on the internet. That is (also) why this sim is important to me.

ACTUAL ART IS BEYING DESTROYED !!!

Please let taht sink in a while. For just a bit. And the implication to Secondlife and Lindenlab towards art as a whole. Because of digital fake land.

That is a point, that is, indiscussable with me. You don't destroy real art over fake land.

I hope we understand eachother better now.

 

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1 minute ago, TDD123 said:

ACTUAL ART IS BEYING DESTROYED !!!

That is a point, that is, indiscussable with me. You don't destroy real art over fake land.

   We appear to have very different perspectives on this. To me, "actual" is an antonym of "virtual"; there could (and arguably should) have been a back-up of the build off-grid. As for "fake" land, no - virtual land requires a server, and it's the server space you pay for when you buy land in SL.

   I'm also very cynical when it comes to "art critics"; what gives one person authority to say that something is or isn't beautiful? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and the value of art is, as anything, a matter of supply and demand - or more often than not, tax evasion. Do you think that someone would pay $140M for a Jackson Pollock just to admire it? Nah.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

As far as me, the 'rules' and non-profits go.

Regarding real world non-profit status and non-profit status within the ToS and Second Life I make a graver disticntion than others seem to do.

The laws of my own country and business conduct of non-profits means exactlly that. 0 profit. A perfect banlance in any economical activity they undertake. Economic activities however can shift to extra costs, but also extra profit. Non-profits can have positive balance. I however do not know what non-profits do with htat balance after that.

To me that means non-profits can participate with the inworld economy, as long as not money is exported to real life funds. Would seem rule number 1 to me.

 

I cannot account for both Lindenlab and the sim' actions towards these statuses. I also did not make up the ToS. If I had, the above  would certainly have been included.

Edited by TDD123
typos
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Orwar said:

Rentals is a profit.

I've created sims for non-profit organizations receiving discounts on land cost -- both schools and organizations benefiting those with various health issues. Often people involved in the project and contributing (via time or money) are given access to build on the land or a place to live. No doubt in most cases they would lose these favors if they did not contribute. The term "rental" in these cases is different from other types of rentals in SL as the money they receive is used to pay for the land and so not technically 'profit'.
Personally, I wouldn't care if a non-profit put out rental boxes and rented parts of their land -- as long as if was used to pay for the land  -- because the issue really is about profit gained over and above costs, and not rentals per se.

Anyway, the above is all a bit moot regarding HL because it appears their land arrangements are very clear via having all rentals on Homesteads that do not receive the non-profit discount.

Edited by Luna Bliss
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17 minutes ago, Orwar said:

I'm also very cynical when it comes to "art critics"; what gives one person authority to say that something is or isn't beautiful? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and the value of art is, as anything, a matter of supply and demand - or more often than not, tax evasion. Do you think that someone would pay $140M for a Jackson Pollock just to admire it? Nah.

There are standards in art, even if "art is in the eye of the beholder" to a certain degree.
On so many levels, HL is art, and in my estimation she is a more talented creator than approximately 99% of those who create in SL.

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, TDD123 said:

As far as me, the 'rules' and non-profits go.

Regarding real world non-profit status and non-profit status within the ToS and Second Life is make a graver disticntion that others seem to do.

The laws of my own country and business conduct of non-profits means exactlly that. 0 profit. A perfect banlance in any economical activity they undertake. Economic activities however can shift to extra cost, btu also extra profit. Non-profits can have positive balance. I do not know what non-profits do with htat balance after that.

To me that means non-profits can participate with the inworld economy, as long as not money is exported to real life funds. Would seem rule number 1 to me.

 

Since your country is the same as mine, LOL, I can attest to what you're saying. :) An NPO does not mean, per se, no money is going around (a mistake ppl often seem to make when thinking about NPO's). Or that they are not allowed to generate income. It just means profit is not their purpose. For instance, large NPO's typically have staff, and pay out salaries, and are perfectly allowed to defray the cost of keeping the organization running from whatever donations are coming in. Otherwise, they would essentially just be a volunteer-organization.

I haste to say I'm not familiar with French law. But I wouldn't be surprised if it worked similary in their country.

Edited by kiramanell
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Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Can’t they rebuild it in Sansar? Cheaper there.

I like Sansar, but it would not be wise to move a big time-consuming project to Sansar at this point. Who knows what the future holds -- maybe they will do what HiFi just did and decide to cater to a certain type of business, cutting out individual creators.

Edited by Luna Bliss
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35 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Can’t they rebuild it in Sansar? Cheaper there.

No.

I asked that directly to the creator and she said she will not re-create. If / when she turns fully dedicated to Sansar it will be by a whole new work.

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, kiramanell said:

An NPO does not mean, per se, no money is going around (a mistake ppl often seem to make when thinking about NPO's). Or that they are not allowed to generate income. It just means profit is not their purpose. For instance, large NPO's typically have staff, and pay out salaries, and are perfectly allowed to defray the cost of keeping the organization running from whatever donations are coming in. Otherwise, they would essentially just be a volunteer-organization.

This is a really good point, and one that has been sort of glossed over in much of the discussion here. To use a really simple instance, in RL non-profits such as museums and galleries almost invariably have "gift stores" that are themselves designed to "make a profit," but that contribute exclusively to the upkeep of the institution, rather than going into someone's pocket or investment portfolio.

The problem, I think, is that applying this kind of thinking about NPOs to SL would open a can of worms, because just about anyone who runs a public region or installation could claim that they qualify. How many sim owners actually make enough money to cash USDs out of SL? Not many, relatively speaking. So, anyone who uses their rentals, sales, and so on to support their estate or mainland tier costs is going to be able to claim that they too are a NPO, because everything that they earn in-world is going to the maintenance of their region(s) or parcels, rather than ending up in their RL bank accounts. And that would apply to a lot of people who run things that none of us would really consider "non-profit," yet alone "art."

The solution, I think, is to count as NPOs only those organizations that have that certified status in RL. And that's probably going to rule out Hangars Liquides.

Edited by Scylla Rhiadra
Get the name right, dumb-dumb!
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10 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

Sigh.. I run a RL business and use them all the time. I think I know how they work. 😉 But even if there was one still stand by my point all they needed to say is there was one in place and everyone would have dropped asking questions.

As have I, more than one, and I stand by my point that NDAs are none of our business if we are not one of the parties involved, which we are not. Yes, it would be nice if someone came forward and said there was an NDA but it isn't necessary. Poking your nose where it doesn't belong can get your nose snipped off.

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Just now, Luna Bliss said:

I like Sansar, but it would not be wise to move a big time-consuming project to Sansar at this point. Who knows what the future holds -- maybe they will do what HiFi just did and decide to cater to a certain type of business, cutting out individual creators.

 

I hope I'm not speaking out of line here, but I actually asked her about that, recently (like what if HL wouldn't be possible in SL any more, or couldn't be exported or something), and she said would just build an entire new city in Sansar, or on whatever platform she could do it. I mean, OMG! That level of dedicaton (!). Very few ppl in history are so committed! The only other person I know to ever have done this, was Johann Gregor Mendel (1822-1884), who devoted like 10 years of his life to his works on genetics. Then it got lost in a fire at the monastary, and he subsequently spent.... another 10 years of his life recollecting the data (a devout man, allegedly having said "I guess my first work wasn't good enough in God's eyes!"). I sure hope Djehan won't have to go thru a similar extra 10-year cycle like that! 😛 But, by the goddess, what a dedication!

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