Hangars Liquides is closing!

[Jeny Howlett]

Edited July 23, 2019 by Jeny Howlett

[AyelaNewLife]

12 minutes ago, Jeny Howlett said:

it shows EUR for me. And those apartments are offered as perks. Better than offering nothing back at all.

It shows the currency amounts in your local currency; so for me that's GBP, for you that's EUR. It's pretty simple to convert them, and to see that the target is indeed $6700 and not $6000.

Edit: Looks like the problem is a bunch of people quoting the half-goal of 3000 Euros as "$3000" by mistake. My math still works out; the annual cost quoted in the fundraiser is for 5 regions for 12 months at the discounted rate.

Also; Linden Lab offers a massive discount to certain sims if they meet certain criteria. If offering 'perks in exchange for donations' breaches those criteria, as they appear to do so, then that discount will be rescinded. And that isn't me picking on this one sim, it's a simple recognition of the fact that there are huge numbers of sims out there that use rentals to subsidise their tier. If you allow HL to double-dip and claim both rentals and the discount, then so will a huge number of other sims. These decisions have consequences that reach far beyond this one sim.

Edited July 23, 2019 by AyelaNewLife

[kiramanell]

2 hours ago, AyelaNewLife said:

The issue here is that Linden Lab could decide to revoke the non-profit status of the sims, due to the fact that donations-for-rentals are technically classified as for-profit sales instead. We know that this is likely, as LL applying this rule to inworld rental sales achieved the same effect. If so, then the region rents go back to their full price and so the $6700 per year rent cost for the five regions will be doubled to compensate. The target of 50%/$3000 by the 1st of August effectively becomes $6000... and the Indiegogo page is a long way from $6000.

What would happen if the fundraiser raised between $3000 and $6000, and LL strips the non-profit discount from the sim? The $3000 target would be met, but that amount would pay for 3-4 months rent only... would the donations be returned, or would the sim get an extra few months of life before closing?

(I used to run a real life charity shop, so I know how messy things can get when you're a business-for-a-charitable-purpose like this. It's a nightmare. But the rules still have to be followed, even when they're dumb and counter-productive.)

 

Apparently -- but ppl won't take her word for it -- Djehan has squared the matter with SL. Which is to say, whatever YOU think is commercial activity doesn't matter, really: if LL is okay with this arrangement, then why not you? (Unless you truly believe Linden Lab is unaware of the crowd funding).

Also, while I'm at it, I'm not sold on this whole idea that 'crowdfunding = paying for rentals.' For one, you can donate without getting any land. The perks just kick in after a certain amount. And, for two, instead of willfully regarding them as 'circumnavigated' rental fees, another way to look at this is simply saying: "Hey, thanks for your contributions! As a token of our appreciation, we'll give you a spot on our land." At any rate, Linden appears to be okay with this arrangement. Further badgering HL feels pointless.

[Alwin Alcott]

7 minutes ago, kiramanell said:

Further badgering HL feels pointless.

as is this whole thread is, even far before the openingepost.

[AyelaNewLife]

9 minutes ago, kiramanell said:

if LL is okay with this arrangement, then why not you? (Unless you truly believe Linden Lab is unaware of the crowd funding).

The test of this will be when the sim owner tries to pay the next month's rent at the discounted rate. Linden Lab could have already decided to strip the discount from this sim, in which case the owner will be charged $230 x5 rather than $115 x5; but there's no way for any of us to know until that actually happens. Until then, everything is theoretical.

Oh, and the case of this sim is potentially an important precedent that Linden Lab are setting. Lose the victim complex, this isn't just about this one sim that could be gone in a matter of weeks; and is therefore fully open to discussion.

[Solar Legion]

No one can square any matter with "SL" ... Second Life is the bloody product/service! Linden Lab is the company!

Further, saying that the matter is "squared" means nothing whatsoever as such could mean that Linden Lab is allowing the regions to remain at the discounted rate even with the crowdfunding as a means to help pay for it or it could simply mean that Linden Lab and the region owner have decided to leave things where they are (regions get their discount stripped) ...

[kiramanell]

7 minutes ago, AyelaNewLife said:

The test of this will be when the sim owner tries to pay the next month's rent at the discounted rate. Linden Lab could have already decided to strip the discount from this sim, in which case the owner will be charged $230 x5 rather than $115 x5; but there's no way for any of us to know until that actually happens. Until then, everything is theoretical.

Oh, and the case of this sim is potentially an important precedent that Linden Lab are setting. Lose the victim complex, this isn't just about this one sim that could be gone in a matter of weeks; and is therefore fully open to discussion.

 

Djehan is not an idiot, LOL. And nor are the Lindens. And you really must be rather naive if you think she isn't in constant contact with them. You don't get to run 5 sims like that, for years, based on a fly-by-the-seats-of-my-pants attitude of "Oh well, we'll just see what happens next month."  

What is happening here, though, is that I constantly see ppl maligning HL, based on nothing more than how they THINK what's going on.

[kiramanell]

9 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

No one can square any matter with "SL" ... Second Life is the bloody product/service! Linden Lab is the company!

Further, saying that the matter is "squared" means nothing whatsoever as such could mean that Linden Lab is allowing the regions to remain at the discounted rate even with the crowdfunding as a means to help pay for it or it could simply mean that Linden Lab and the region owner have decided to leave things where they are (regions get their discount stripped) ...

 

LOL. Did you just seriously correct me on the 'SL' thing? Why, I think you just did. 😜

Seriously, though, isn't it time you gave it a rest? Djhan said she only needs 3,000 euros, as a downpayment, and that the matter has been squared with SL.. err, LL. 😛 The rest is just you, and other detractors, spewing bile at HL. And it's rather unbecoming, really.

[Fionalein]

14 minutes ago, kiramanell said:

And you really must be rather naive if you think she isn't in constant contact with them. You don't get to run 5 sims like that, for years, based on a fly-by-the-seats-of-my-pants attitude of "Oh well, we'll just see what happens next month."  

Errr, you must be reading a different thread than us - Djehan does not seem to talk much at all - whereever you look it's Lawrence talking ... he even started this thread, while Djehan remained suspiciously silent for her project being at stake. Well but let's consider your proposed case - if she were in constant contact: explain the situation they are in now.

Edited July 23, 2019 by Fionalein

[AyelaNewLife]

14 minutes ago, kiramanell said:

Djehan is not an idiot, LOL. And nor are the Lindens. And you really must be rather naive if you think she isn't in constant contact with them. You don't get to run 5 sims like that, for years, based on a fly-by-the-seats-of-my-pants attitude of "Oh well, we'll just see what happens next month."  

As I said; the case of Hangars Liquides has the potential to be an important precedent for how other, similar sims are to be treated by Linden Lab. So if Djehan or anyone else could explain how a sim that appears to breach the discount rules could still receive that discount, then that solves the issue and everyone is happy.

Instead all I see is blind faith in the creator, which is utterly useless to the owner of any other sim that might be reading this thread.

[Solar Legion]

8 minutes ago, kiramanell said:

 

LOL. Did you just seriously correct me on the 'SL' thing? Why, I think you just did. 😜

Seriously, though, isn't it time you gave it a rest? Djhan said she only needs 3,000 euros, as a downpayment, and that the matter has been squared with SL.. err, LL. 😛 The rest is just you, and other detractors, spewing bile at HL. And it's rather unbecoming, really.

Your attitude helps no one - at all. On top of that your bias is showing quite clearly.

[Jeny Howlett]

2 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

Your attitude helps no one - at all. On top of that your bias is showing quite clearly.

and your bias isnt showing? seriously i can't understand all the hate and suspicion that is aimed at Dhejann. But haters gonna hate , meanwhile donations keep raising up everyday.

[Fionalein]

Just now, Jeny Howlett said:

and your bias isnt showing? seriously i can't understand all the hate and suspicion that is aimed at Dhejann. But haters gonna hate , meanwhile donations keep raising up everyday.

No one in here hates Djehan ... not even the person threatening to ruin her work by presenting it in the worst kind imaginable seems to hate her.

[kiramanell]

13 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

Errr, you must be reading a different thread than us - Djehan does not seem to talk much at all - whereever you look it's Lawrence talking ... he even started this thread, while Djehan remained suspiciously silent for her project being at stake. Well but let's consider your proposed case - if she were in constant contact: explain the situation they are in now.

 

It is not my place to explain anything. That is for Lawrence and Djehan to do, should they so desire.

I did, however, do a rather radical thing: I went to her sim, and, you know, actually talked to her.  Were I in her shoes, I would, in all honesty, probably have spoken out here in person myself. But, considering how this thread has been going, can you really blame her that she doesn't?!

Edited July 23, 2019 by kiramanell

[Solar Legion]

1 minute ago, Jeny Howlett said:

and your bias isnt showing? seriously i can't understand all the hate and suspicion that is aimed at Dhejann. But haters gonna hate , meanwhile donations keep raising up everyday.

And what bias would that be, hmm?

I'll answer that for you: My bias is for the truth of the matter. Reality.

There is no "hate" involved in my responses - at all. That you appear to think otherwise is a very clear indicator of just how invested you are and how much said investment has blinded you to what anyone has actually said.

Go on back, read the thread, read what was actually said and do take note that I (and a few others you're lumping together with your statement) have explicitly stated we hope HL can remain, that we liked what we saw and wish the creator the best.

Oh but wait - actually seeing and understanding that would ruin your narrative, wouldn't it?

[Jeny Howlett]

3 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

And what bias would that be, hmm?

I'll answer that for you: My bias is for the truth of the matter. Reality.

There is no "hate" involved in my responses - at all. That you appear to think otherwise is a very clear indicator of just how invested you are and how much said investment has blinded you to what anyone has actually said.

Go on back, read the thread, read what was actually said and do take note that I (and a few others you're lumping together with your statement) have explicitly stated we hope HL can remain, that we liked what we saw and wish the creator the best.

Oh but wait - actually seeing and understanding that would ruin your narrative, wouldn't it?

ohh i might not be as invested as you are invested in this thread by sitting here all day and posting replies every 5 mins. anyhow i am done arguing here. Still gonna cross fingers for the sims to stay. Peace out

Edited July 23, 2019 by Jeny Howlett

[Fionalein]

3 minutes ago, Jeny Howlett said:

ohh i might not be as invested as you are invested in this thread by sitting here all day and posting replies every 5 mins. 

It's hand mirror time again ...

I think we might get the thread locked before the indiegogo ends if we continue tossing accusations at each other.

Edited July 23, 2019 by Fionalein

[Solar Legion]

Ah yes, when presented with reality, fall back on a fallacy.

I've left this thread alone for some time - nice try though.

Since you've decided to go down that route however, you've made it quite clear that you have no interest whatsoever in any viewpoint except your own.

Have a pleasent day.

[Selene Gregoire]

6 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said:

what you describe here makes it absolutely no donation, this is a product you sell upfront, and if no delivery possible you get your payment back.
A donation is never refundable. Its given out of free will, with no future expectations, and for most not even for a specific cause, but free to spend by the receiver. With this temperatures it could be even for a icecream for staff.

There are no laws in the US prohibiting the return of a donation to the donator. 

Under certain circumstances, nonprofit organizations can refund a donor’s contribution. However, under other circumstances, returning a donor’s gift could result in a review by state authorities. Whether or not a situation results in state review will depend on a given state’s regulations, the impact returning the gift would have on the nonprofit, and the size of the gift in question,.

Different states have different laws and regulations governing nonprofit organizations. However, most, if not all, state rules are vague on the point of charities returning gifts. What states do recognize is that when a donor gives money to a nonprofit organization, that money is no longer the donor’s once accepted by the charity. Instead, the money is, in effect, owned by the public interest. Because nonprofit organizations exist to benefit the public interest, regulators will be concerned that gifts are used to further the public interest. Returning a donor’s gift could be contrary to the public interest. That’s the issue for regulators.

[Qie Niangao]

2 hours ago, Lawrence Celestalis said:

Last two posts go back to issues that have been already covered and explained, so please go back to the previous posts. 

After a break to do something productive in RL, I went back and waded through this entire thread again and simply could not find a coherent quantitative exposition of the going-forward business plan. Same (in spades) for the indigogo page. The best we got are these recent posts by @AyelaNewLife which are most helpful indeed. The helped me understand the answer to my question (how could they be this far underwater? easy: all this is not in addition to the existing cash flow, it's to completely replace the current rental income. Which is kinda obvious when I think about it.

And now I think I may be starting to understand Ayela's point with these posts: Is the new business plan based on the rental regions continuing to get the non-profit discount?

I don't think so. Those four surrounding regions are currently Homesteads while the centerpiece is a Full region.The undiscounted monthly fee for a Homestead is US$109 -- pretty close to the US$115 we are using as the discounted fee for a Full region. So I think the numbers work for one discounted Full region (12 mo * US$115 = US$1280) plus four undiscounted Homesteads (12mo * US$109 = US$5232) for a total of US$6612 which seems pretty close.

I don't know how many current rentals there are, nor how they're currently arranged; it would make sense if they're already all on those Homesteads to reserve all Land Impact for the elaborate builds on the central Hangars region. And I don't know the intended arrangement of the new rentals, perhaps each of the four Homesteads gets one of the big, 500 LI penthouses plus fifteen of the 60 LI apartments. I have no idea whether that's within the "low-density rentals" guidelines, but that's presumably knowable. It certainly leaves Land Impact for other content on those Homesteads, so that seems plausible, and for all I know it may be exactly how it is now.

[Selene Gregoire]

2 hours ago, AyelaNewLife said:

t shows the currency amounts in your local currency; so for me that's GBP, for you that's EUR. It's pretty simple to convert them, and to see that the target is indeed $6700 and not $6000.

When I looked at it it did say $6000 USD, not $6700. Now it shows $6,707. So it got changed at some point.

 

[Selene Gregoire]

1 hour ago, AyelaNewLife said:

The test of this will be when the sim owner tries to pay the next month's rent at the discounted rate. Linden Lab could have already decided to strip the discount from this sim, in which case the owner will be charged $230 x5 rather than $115 x5; but there's no way for any of us to know until that actually happens. Until then, everything is theoretical.

Oh, and the case of this sim is potentially an important precedent that Linden Lab are setting. Lose the victim complex, this isn't just about this one sim that could be gone in a matter of weeks; and is therefore fully open to discussion.

I have to agree with Ayela on this oen Kira. This isn't about just HL, it's about all 'art' regions in SL and it is setting a very important precedence. Hopefully LL made the right decision for SL. 

Yeah I know, wish in one hand and boop in the other and see which one fills up first.

[kiramanell]

7 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

I have to agree with Ayela on this oen Kira. This isn't about just HL, it's about all 'art' regions in SL and it is setting a very important precedence. Hopefully LL made the right decision for SL.

 

The problem is, that many ppl are assuming a lot, and are basing their thinking on that. Fact is, I just had another chat with Dhehan, and she laid it all out to me. As I told Fiona, it's not my place to explain things, save to say I'm now re-assured that what she's doing is completely legal, and fully inside the TOS, and in no danger of ever deemed murky business.  

[AyelaNewLife]

36 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

After a break to do something productive in RL, I went back and waded through this entire thread again and simply could not find a coherent quantitative exposition of the going-forward business plan. Same (in spades) for the indigogo page. The best we got are these recent posts by @AyelaNewLife which are most helpful indeed. The helped me understand the answer to my question (how could they be this far underwater? easy: all this is not in addition to the existing cash flow, it's to completely replace the current rental income. Which is kinda obvious when I think about it.

And now I think I may be starting to understand Ayela's point with these posts: Is the new business plan based on the rental regions continuing to get the non-profit discount?

I don't think so. Those four surrounding regions are currently Homesteads while the centerpiece is a Full region.The undiscounted monthly fee for a Homestead is US$109 -- pretty close to the US$115 we are using as the discounted fee for a Full region. So I think the numbers work for one discounted Full region (12 mo * US$115 = US$1280) plus four undiscounted Homesteads (12mo * US$109 = US$5232) for a total of US$6612 which seems pretty close.

I don't know how many current rentals there are, nor how they're currently arranged; it would make sense if they're already all on those Homesteads to reserve all Land Impact for the elaborate builds on the central Hangars region. And I don't know the intended arrangement of the new rentals, perhaps each of the four Homesteads gets one of the big, 500 LI penthouses plus fifteen of the 60 LI apartments. I have no idea whether that's within the "low-density rentals" guidelines, but that's presumably knowable. It certainly leaves Land Impact for other content on those Homesteads, so that seems plausible, and for all I know it may be exactly how it is now.

I was running on the assumption that "five regions" meant five full regions, rather than one region and four homesteads; and that the rental properties were spread out across each region so that the rent for each one would be the same. But that was just assuming that the post in the Indiegogo page was accurate, which was perhaps unwise. 

This certainly does explain the discrepancy between what the sim owner (and others) have said in this thread, and the actual rules for the discount in question. It also means that Linden Lab is not setting a new precedent with this case; which would have made a huge difference to a large number of other sims. Ideally this information would have come from one of the many people throwing mud in this thread, instead of the wild accusations made here. 

(For the benefit of everyone else: The Indiegogo page states that there are 60 apartment rentals at $112/$156, of which 10 have been paid for already, and 4 "platinum rooftop lofts" for $1120/$2235, of which 1 has been claimed. The two prices are the current sale price, and the listed base price. So 15 standard apartments and 1 luxury penthouse per homestead, if that's the model they're using. It also means that the project doesn't need to fill every rental to cover its costs, which is wise.)

Edited July 23, 2019 by AyelaNewLife
I did typo

[AyelaNewLife]

7 minutes ago, kiramanell said:

The problem is, that many ppl are assuming a lot, and are basing their thinking on that. Fact is, I just had another chat with Dhehan, and she laid it all out to me. As I told Fiona, it's not my place to explain things, save to say I'm now re-assured that what she's doing is completely legal, and fully inside the TOS, and in no danger of ever deemed murky business.  

"Everything is fine but I'm not going to tell you how or why everything is fine instead you just need to trust me" is a pretty terrible line of thinking. And it just gives off the impression that you're talking out of your backside and don't actually understand what is going on here.

If you genuinely understood that the sim comprised of one full, discounted region and four undiscounted homesteads, then you would have said so a dozen pages ago. Instead you made wild accusations about people trying to smear Hangars Liquides, and other nonsensical ramblings. It's not a good look.