How aggressive should Linden Lab be in converting residents to premium?

[Mollymews]

1 hour ago, Orwar said:

 finding a feature to add which would be universally desired feels difficult

this is the thing.  I don't think there is a feature that would be universally desired to the point where it would prompt a huge number of people to buy a premium account

there are different things that some people would pay for without wanting or paying for the other things.  It might be that the sum of the different things could add up to a huge number of people.  What those things are would I think be more achievable.  Things like Merchant benefit, Builder benefit, Full Region benefit, Homestead benefit, Last Name benefit, Linden Home benefit. Old Mainland Tier benefit, etc etc. and similar which could be purchased independently

a radical change could be to downgrade the Premium account - to 300L stipend and that's all, for a significantly reduced price  Then only this new Premium account can purchase the added benefits

 

edit add. The thing with this, is that it reduces the current Basic vs Premium account debate to one about L$ being the base on which SL rests

edit more:  The question then becomes: Why would you not upgrade from Basic to Premium when you get 300L$ cheaper than you would buying it on the Lindex ?

Edited July 8, 2019 by Mollymews
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[Bitsy Buccaneer]

6 hours ago, KanryDrago said:

It would be merely a 100$ tax on me playing sl for no gain.

....

The stipend is a drop in the ocean for what I spend

L$300 x 52 weeks = L$15,600. At current rates, that's US$57-59 per year "refunded" from tier. So the "tax" is US$40-42 per year (using the annual premium price), which works out to US$3.33-3.50 per month.

I'm all for basic accounts and the countless ways people can contribute to SL, whether they create things or buy things, pay for premium, buy lindens or just be an interesting part of the community and reason for others to keep logging back in.

I just think it's important to look at the reality of the costs. Don't compare the stipend with what you spend, that's apples and oranges. Better to consider it in terms of a tax rebate and if you feel $3.50 per month is a reasonable "tax" on something you value.

That something will be the platform itself. The extra groups and priority access aren't what premium pays for after all, they're just perks to encourage take up.

[KanryDrago]

5 minutes ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

L$300 x 52 weeks = L$15,600. At current rates, that's US$57-59 per year "refunded" from tier. So the "tax" is US$40-42 per year (using the annual premium price), which works out to US$3.33-3.50 per month.

I'm all for basic accounts and the countless ways people can contribute to SL, whether they create things or buy things, pay for premium, buy lindens or just be an interesting part of the community and reason for others to keep logging back in.

I just think it's important to look at the reality of the costs. Don't compare the stipend with what you spend, that's apples and oranges. Better to consider it in terms of a tax rebate and if you feel $3.50 per month is a reasonable "tax" on something you value.

That something will be the platform itself. The extra groups and priority access aren't what premium pays for after all, they're just perks to encourage take up.

Why should I pay extra on top of the 36 dollars they already get from me a month? I already give more to their bottom line than some premiums. Yet you think I should pay extra for some perks I neither want nor need? Care to explain why the you think I should

[Solar Legion]

And as always it was only a matter of time before someone popped in trying to equate their choice to stockpile their stipend as some normal thing ...

Edited July 8, 2019 by Solar Legion

[Bitsy Buccaneer]

3 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

Why should I pay extra on top of the 36 dollars they already get from me a month? I already give more to their bottom line than some premiums. Yet you think I should pay extra for some perks I neither want nor need? Care to explain why the you think I should

Kanry, I know you like to argue and the speed at which your reply came through suggests you reacted to rather than read my post. You appear to have read things into it which aren't there, like this bit about me thinking you should pay extra for perks.

My post was to clarify that it's a US$42 "tax", not a US$100 one, and that it goes toward supporting the platform, not paying for the perks.

I'm also not saying anyone should do anything. But I do think it's useful when decisions are made on a fair and accurate representation of the facts and feel it's important to get these into the thread. What anyone does with them is their own decision.

[Bitsy Buccaneer]

3 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

And as always it was only a matter of time before someone popped in trying to equate their choice to stockpile their stipend as some normal thing ...

It's not about stockpiling stipend though. That's one way to do it. Spending a bit less on buying lindens is another. However you do it, it's more accurate to include the stipend in your numbers.

[KanryDrago]

2 minutes ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

Kanry, I know you like to argue and the speed at which your reply came through suggests you reacted to rather than read my post. You appear to have read things into it which aren't there, like this bit about me thinking you should pay extra for perks.

My post was to clarify that it's a US$42 "tax", not a US$100 one, and that it goes toward supporting the platform, not paying for the perks.

I'm also not saying anyone should do anything. But I do think it's useful when decisions are made on a fair and accurate representation of the facts and feel it's important to get these into the thread. What anyone does with them is their own decision.

No I didnt misread your post.

For starters I currently get through 20k lindens a month currently. All the stipend would mean is I spend 21200 a month. So its not saving me anything. If I dont have it I wouldnt be buying an extra 1200 lindens. If I do have it I wont be buying less lindens than currently therefore its not saving me a single penny. It is you misrepresenting things because you are merely looking at it through what you do.

[KanryDrago]

To clarify Bitsy

I spend x a month on lindens

I therefore spend 12x a year

even with the stipend I will still spend 12x on lindens

the fact that you would buy less lindens due to the stipend is purely what you do

[Bitsy Buccaneer]

Just now, KanryDrago said:

No I didnt misread your post.

For starters I currently get through 20k lindens a month currently. All the stipend would mean is I spend 21200 a month. So its not saving me anything. If I dont have it I wouldnt be buying an extra 1200 lindens. If I do have it I wont be buying less lindens than currently therefore its not saving me a single penny. It is you misrepresenting things because you are merely looking at it through what you do.

So? You've found a third way of working the equations. It still doesn't mean it's a US$100 tax, you're just chosing to spend your US$59 tax rebate inworld.

It's still a US$59 tax rebate.

[KanryDrago]

1 minute ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

So? You've found a third way of working the equations. It still doesn't mean it's a US$100 tax, you're just chosing to spend your US$59 tax rebate inworld.

It's still a US$59 tax rebate.

No its only a rebate if I spend less, thats why I call it a drop in the ocean I wouldnt even notice it being there. 

Without sub I spend 12x

with sub I spend 12x + 99

therefore the sub is a 99$ tax simple as that 

[Bitsy Buccaneer]

1 minute ago, KanryDrago said:

No its only a rebate if I spend less, thats why I call it a drop in the ocean I wouldnt even notice it being there. 

Without sub I spend 12x

with sub I spend 12x + 99

therefore the sub is a 99$ tax simple as that 

If you were on premium, you'd be spending your rebate inworld. Even if it doesn't affect your overall spending, you still can increased value for it. If that increased value is so insignificant you can dismiss it, then perhaps $3.50 for premium isn't much of a hurdle either.

[KanryDrago]

2 minutes ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

If you were on premium, you'd be spending your rebate inworld. Even if it doesn't affect your overall spending, you still can increased value for it. If that increased value is so insignificant you can dismiss it, then perhaps $3.50 for premium isn't much of a hurdle either.

for the last time its not 3.50 its 99 extra a year it costs me and absolutely nothing in premium has any value to me whatsoever

[Bitsy Buccaneer]

Just now, KanryDrago said:

for the last time its not 3.50 its 99 extra a year it costs me and absolutely nothing in premium has any value to me whatsoever

Kanry, you've completely misunderstood everything I've been saying.

[KanryDrago]

Just now, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

Kanry, you've completely misunderstood everything I've been saying.

And you have not understood what I am saying either my current budget for sl a month is 80$ going premium merely adds 99$ a year to that total for something I dont want. You can try and justify it anyway you want but at the end of the day I am still paying 99$ more for something I do not want

[Bitsy Buccaneer]

Just now, KanryDrago said:

And you have not understood what I am saying either my current budget for sl a month is 80$ going premium merely adds 99$ a year to that total for something I dont want. You can try and justify it anyway you want but at the end of the day I am still paying 99$ more for something I do not want

No, I got that. It's a pretty basic concept. Your spending wouldn't change. You only consider the perks you don't use, dismiss the one you would use (stipend, because you would actually spend those lindens), and the value of supporting the platform hasn't factored into your equation.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

7 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

And you have not understood what I am saying either my current budget for sl a month is 80$ going premium merely adds 99$ a year to that total for something I dont want. You can try and justify it anyway you want but at the end of the day I am still paying 99$ more for something I do not want

I don't think Bitsy is trying to convince you, personally, that this would be a good move for you.

She's merely noting, as I understand it, that for those who do see value in Premium perks -- and there certainly are some who do -- this doesn't cost as much as you are suggesting, because they are getting back part of their outlay in in-world currency via the stipend.

Edited July 8, 2019 by Scylla Rhiadra

[KanryDrago]

5 minutes ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

No, I got that. It's a pretty basic concept. Your spending wouldn't change. You only consider the perks you don't use, dismiss the one you would use (stipend, because you would actually spend those lindens), and the value of supporting the platform hasn't factored into your equation.

I already support the platform is my point and I don't need something worthless to do it

[Lindal Kidd]

A plague on both your houses!

Look, I disagree that there is some sort of class warfare going on between Basic and Premium members.  (Which is not to say that SOME people of both sorts don't have it in for people in the other camp.  I just don't believe it's generally the case.)

I am Premium, and have been almost since the beginning...even before I owned any Mainland.  I happen to find the benefits worthwhile, and I'm not shy about telling other people I meet that I think it's a good deal.

On the other hand, 90% of my friends are Basic members.  I don't hold it against them.  It's their choice.  It makes no difference at all in our friendship.  Heck, a lot of them probably like asparagus, too (yuck!).

As for the OP's question:  No.  There should be no "pressure" on the part of LL to generate more Premium members.  Of course, that does not mean I don't think LL should make Premium as attractive as possible.

[Blush Bravin]

I've actually been thinking about this a lot lately. I know for me the only reason I go premium is for the tier allotment. I do enjoy the perks and it is added incentive to stay premium but if I didn't want the Linden Home or the tier free sqm I wouldn't pay for premium. And since you can't use the sqm for renting land on a private estate that determines where I'm going to live as well. So, I've been wondering what the lab could do that would make premium attractive for those who choose to live on a private estate rather than mainland. I don't see how anyone would pay premium just for the perks unless they simply want to support the health of the platform, which is noble, but rare I would think.

So, I've been wondering if it's even feasible for the lab to create a level of premium that is based on receiving lindens rather than receiving free tier. Economically I am having a hard time seeing how the lab could do this because the SL economy is based on residents buying and selling lindens between themselves. I don't think the lab makes all that much money on the trading fees. So that's why I ask is it even feasible. But considering how often I hear people say they refuse to go premium because they have no desire to live on mainland or in a Linden Home and would rather spend their money on lindens, I think it's worth pondering.

Edited July 8, 2019 by Blush Bravin

[KanryDrago]

Just now, Lindal Kidd said:

A plague on both your houses!

Look, I disagree that there is some sort of class warfare going on between Basic and Premium members.  (Which is not to say that SOME people of both sorts don't have it in for people in the other camp.  I just don't believe it's generally the case.)

I am Premium, and have been almost since the beginning...even before I owned any Mainland.  I happen to find the benefits worthwhile, and I'm not shy about telling other people I meet that I think it's a good deal.

On the other hand, 90% of my friends are Basic members.  I don't hold it against them.  It's their choice.  It makes no difference at all in our friendship.  Heck, a lot of them probably like asparagus, too (yuck!).

As for the OP's question:  No.  There should be no "pressure" on the part of LL to generate more Premium members.  Of course, that does not mean I don't think LL should make Premium as attractive as possible.

I agree that there is no general warfare Lindal, but yes I am strident on this topic when suggestions such as gate major world features like mesh behind premium comes along, or as in a previous thread some people were suggesting that basic members were freeloading off of premium members.

Most premiums and most basics get along just fine and pay no attention to each others status. However as soon as someone makes a suggestion which would result in basic members being lesser members then damn right I will step in and complain.

[Bitsy Buccaneer]

2 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

I already support the platform is my point and I don't need something worthless to do it

My apologies, I should have said "support the platform directly".

I'm tired, over-doing and really need to be done here. Scylla's right, I've not been trying to convince you personally. So much has been lost in what I wrote initially.

[KanryDrago]

Just now, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

My apologies, I should have said "support the platform directly".

I'm tired, over-doing and really need to be done here. Scylla's right, I've not been trying to convince you personally. So much has been lost in what I wrote initially.

Smiles we have I think been talking at cross purposes to a certain extent Bitsy looking at the same thing from different directions is all

[Marianne Little]

I managed well as Basic in 10 years, until LL increased the free tier to 1024 M. So the carrot for me, to keep Premium, is more land without tier, when the exitement of Linden Homes wear off.

For Merchants, it can be something else. I am not selling anything, so I can't tell. For those who can't afford a nice, large part of land, or buy Mainland by the Blake Sea or Second Norway for 100 000 L, the new Linden Homes is the best offer for me.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

I think that some of the responses to the whole Premium thing are somewhat missing the point, because they are focused upon whether one idea or another would "work" for them personally, or at least at an individual level.

For example, I'm not entirely dismissive of the whole "Non-Premiums are being treated as second class citizens" thing, because I've seen elements of that here (although I'll confess I've never seen it in operation in-world myself). But thinking of the "culture clash" between Premium and non-Premium residents as a kind of "social justice" issue, which I also see here, is probably rather over-the-top. This is an entertainment for almost all of us: it's not the same as being sat at the back of a bus in RL. (As an aside, I'm going to start referring to some of the more vociferous advocates for non-Premiums here as "SJWs," because it amuses me, and turnabout is fair play, as they say. 😊)

The real issue, it seems to me, is what LL can afford to do without damaging the SL economy and the platform as a whole. And that's pretty limited, because non-Premium members are a huge part of that economy, as well as concurrency. They are almost certainly the most important consumers (taken as a whole), and a great many of them are landlords and creators.

So, to use the example of mesh which someone raised above: had mesh been "restricted" to Premium members when it was introduced (and really, I don't know how you would do that, or what it would look like even), then the potential market for mesh items would likely have been restricted to 10-15% of the resident population. The result would be of course that creating and selling mesh would become a whole lot less lucrative, to the point maybe that very few people would even bother. And there goes a HUGE portion of the economy. Not to mention that SL wouldn't look as good as it does now, which would in turn impact upon new signups.

So, and I'm sorry if this seems rather over-obvious, the "perks" of Premium need to be attractive enough that people want it, but not so vital to the platform, or the economy, that preventing the participation of non-Premiums. and possibly even driving them away, isn't going to mess up the economy and concurrency.

And what that means is that the kind of perks currently on offer -- stipend, Linden Homes, extra group slots, etc. -- are necessarily only going to appeal to a limited segment of the resident population. Because if they were vitally important to everyone, SL would lose a lot of its non-Premiums, and the economy would nosedive.

[KanryDrago]

2 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

I've actually been thinking about this a lot lately. I know for me the only reason I go premium is for the tier allotment. I do enjoy the perks and it is added incentive to stay premium but if I didn't want the Linden Home or the tier free sqm. I wouldn't pay for premium. And since you can't use the sqm for renting land on a private estate that determines where I'm going to live as well. So, I've been wondering what the lab could do that would make premium attractive to those who would rather live on private estate land rather than mainland. I don't see how anyone would pay premium just for the perks unless they simply want to support the health of the platform, which is noble, but rare I would think.

So, I've been wondering if it's even feasible for the lab to create a level of premium that is based on receiving lindens rather than receiving free tier. Economically I am having a hard time seeing how the lab could do this because the SL economy is based on residents buying and selling lindens between themselves. I don't think the lab makes all that much money on the trading fees. So that's why I ask is it even feasible. But considering how often I hear people say they refuse to go premium because they have no desire to live on mainland or in a Linden Home and would rather spend their money on lindens I think it's worth pondering.

Its actually worse than that though blush, I personally would see premium as a worse option for land for me. The year before last just before christmas I got laid off and took me till the end of March before I had money coming into the house again for various reasons.

If I was premium and had my land 8192 metres the end result is that the Lab would have tried to take payment and then locked my account until I could pay them. Not being premium however I talked to my landlord and explained and he was kind enough to say no worries keep the land then when back in work you can catch up. End result while unemployed I could still log on and keep my house and while I had no lindens to spend I could still at least enjoy sl