The Pirate DJ Treaty of Bellisseria

[Seba Serpente]

I am awaiting for an official response as well here.

However, I beleive the covenant applies to the homes. An event venue is not a home but a special space for special use. Rules may not work the same way.

 

Very likely even the lindens in charge of this didnt had in mind these situations on the fairgrounds, so, there is probably not even an answer for this.

Edited July 7, 2019 by Seba Serpente

[Devin Heartsong]

Regarding tip jars, it's pretty simple. From this post:

Quote

...The general gist here is: if it feels commercial, then you probably shouldn’t be doing it.  Here is the text of the addition to the covenant which goes into effect today:

• Activities and items that could be construed as commercial and for profit by Linden Lab are not permitted in the residential homes and houseboats in Bellisseria.

Putting out a tip jar is literally asking for money in exchange for a service. This is the core definition of "commercial" and is certainly "for profit".

Edited July 7, 2019 by Fushichou Mfume

[Sylvia Tamalyn]

1 minute ago, Fushichou Mfume said:

Regarding tip jars, it's pretty simple. From this post:

Putting out a tip jar is literally asking for money in exchange for a service. This is the core definition of "commercial" and is certainly "for profit".

 

Now to muddy the waters and follow up on what Seba just said... does this apply to the fairgrounds? It only refers to "residential homes and houseboats". Hmm.

[Devin Heartsong]

1 minute ago, Sylvia Tamalyn said:

 

Now to muddy the waters and follow up on what Seba just said... does this apply to the fairgrounds? It only refers to "residential homes and houseboats". Hmm.

Again, the answer lies within the pinned thread I quoted above. The following quote is also from that post by @Patch Linden. Bold emphasis mine. Key word is "neighborhood".

_______

We think in spirit, the desire to maintain the community feel of the neighborhood and homes, that this small adjustment to the covenant will help to make things clear that these are homes, not stores or shops.  We have other plans in place to satisfy requests for something like a yard sale, where you could feature Linden Homes add-ons in a communal area already in place, to come soon™.

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[Sylvia Tamalyn]

16 minutes ago, Fushichou Mfume said:

Again, the answer lies within the pinned thread I quoted above. The following quote is also from that post by @Patch Linden. Bold emphasis mine. Key word is "neighborhood".

_______

We think in spirit, the desire to maintain the community feel of the neighborhood and homes, that this small adjustment to the covenant will help to make things clear that these are homes, not stores or shops.  We have other plans in place to satisfy requests for something like a yard sale, where you could feature Linden Homes add-ons in a communal area already in place, to come soon™.

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Right, I was referring to the wording of the covenant itself, though. Personally, I am against tip jars at any Bellisseria venue.

[Seba Serpente]

9 minutes ago, Fushichou Mfume said:

Again, the answer lies within the pinned thread I quoted above. The following quote is also from that post by @Patch Linden. Bold emphasis mine. Key word is "neighborhood".

_______

We think in spirit, the desire to maintain the community feel of the neighborhood and homes, that this small adjustment to the covenant will help to make things clear that these are homes, not stores or shops.  We have other plans in place to satisfy requests for something like a yard sale, where you could feature Linden Homes add-ons in a communal area already in place, to come soon™.

-------------

Is safe to say the covenant applies fully to homes and their inmediate surroundings. I have my doubts on other areas like public common spaces and large water areas. These areas are not homes, and on regular mainland areas with no homes on them, you don't find such restrictions.

Sadly, it does seems that the covenant has only been copy pasted on all regions regardless of the region actual purpose and use, and the covenant focuses on the residential aspect and the inmediate surroundings of the homes, certainly leaving some holes like the case of the fairground, and i would even extend it to regions that only have water, intended for traffic.

[Devin Heartsong]

Indeed. The covenant is identical on every parcel and region in Bellisseria. Even the full water regions. Even the fairgrounds--go look! Therefore.....

I mean really, do we need to split hairs and do rules-lawyering and call for a Linden to come in yet again and interpret what is a pretty clear set of guidelines already?  Belli, in its entirety, is "Linden Covenant Land". We've heard Patch say this in the past. The non-commercial spirit of the covenant is clear and unambiguous. Asking for tips is clearly a commercial activity; it's literally asking for a profit in return for a service, which is clearly and unambiguously "of a commercial nature". The covenant is clearly and unambiguously against commercial activity of any sort. The convent is on every single region in Belli--even the "protected" regions. Therefore....

Edited July 7, 2019 by Fushichou Mfume

[Jaylinbridges]

Muddy waters continuing, if the Covenant only applies to immediate homes and surroundings, what about a skybox at 3900 meters above one's parcel?  A skybox that would have no visible signs anywhere on the land level or even on the outside of the skybox itself.  And no TP pad to the skybox.  The only way to access this LH private skybox would be from advertising a direct to the skybox Landmark from outside of Bellisseria, say from a private website.  Can this skybox be a low traffic shop, selling no copy paintings, for example?  Traffic might be 1 person/day at best.  The Covenant has nothing about skybox shops or businesses either.  They in no way change the character of any neighborhood in Bellisseria.

Yes this is a tangent from the DJ tip jar issue.  But if a DJ can plunk down a tip jar and make 10K $L in 2 hrs on public land, why are residents who actually live here banned from an invisible business in the sky on their own parcel?

 

Edited July 7, 2019 by Jaylinbridges

[Sylvia Tamalyn]

Quote

We have other plans in place to satisfy requests for something like a yard sale, where you could feature Linden Homes add-ons in a communal area already in place, to come soon™.

Not quite so clear to me. This bit from @Patch Linden implies there is the possibility of commercial activity to be allowed at some point, in public areas. I think it's a fair interpretation to think that the fairgrounds might be one of those. Maybe not now, but at some point. So yeah, clarification is not a bad idea.

[Seba Serpente]

2 minutes ago, Fushichou Mfume said:

Indeed. The covenant is identical on every parcel and region in Bellisseria. Even the full water regions. Even the fairgrounds. Therefore.....

I mean really, do we need to split hairs and do rules-lawyering and call for a Linden to come in yet again and interpret what is a pretty clear set of guidelines already?  Belli, in its entirety, is "Linden Covenant Land". We've heard Patch say this in the past. The non-commercial spirit of the covenant is clear and unambiguous. Asking for tips is clearly a commercial activity; it's literally asking for a profit in return for a service, which is clearly and unambiguously "of a commercial nature". The covenant is clearly and unambiguously against commercial activity of any sort. The convent is on every single region in Belli--even the "protected" regions. Therefore....

I would take example on the SL16B guidelines for performers and exhibitors, I would guess that would be a more fitting guideline for a space like the Fairground, and the SLB is also a linden funded special use space.

Performers are the only ones allowed to collect tips or any form of payment at the SLB, and only diring their time. Commercial activity like sales or direct advertisement is also prohibited, however, advertisement for community groups is allowed.

Considering that the same people managing the SLB is also assigned to manage the Fairground, there is a good chance these same guidelines might be used. I would.

[Seba Serpente]

2 minutes ago, Jaylinbridges said:

Muddy waters continuing, if the Covenant only applies to immediate homes and surroundings, what about a skybox at 3900 meters above one's parcel?  A skybox that would have no visible signs anywhere on the land level or even on the outside of the skybox itself.  And no TP pad to the skybox.  The only way to access this LH private skybox would be from advertising outside of Bellisseria, say from a private website.  Can this skybox be a low traffic shop, selling no copy paintings, for example.  Traffic might be 1 person/day at best.  The Covenant has nothing about skybox shops or businesses either.  They in no way change the character of any neighborhood in Bellisseria.

Yes this is a tangent from the DJ tip jar issue.  But if a DJ can plunk down a tip jar and make 10K $L in 2 hrs on public land, why are residents who actually live here banned from an invisible business in the sky on their own parcel?

 

The covenant applies to the whole parcel regardless of height.

[Mollymews]

58 minutes ago, hawksea80 said:

Molly mentors have always been unpaid. Way way way back in the day I was a mentor and I did it because I love the community, like we all did. I've been around SL for 12 years plus and I do agree mentors would be great to come back just not sure if we should be paid for volunteering. But lessons are always learned and i'll just continue to do what I love to do. Play music and make friends!

yes about the old mentors. We had a big chat about them as well. What works and doesn't always work with unpaid volunteers

and yes is good that you do what you love. I have no probs with this part

[Mollymews]

25 minutes ago, Seba Serpente said:

Is safe to say the covenant applies fully to homes and their inmediate surroundings. I have my doubts on other areas like public common spaces and large water areas. These areas are not homes, and on regular mainland areas with no homes on them, you don't find such restrictions

a question for the fairgrounds is that if it is not a home or an immediate surrounding, then it could either be seen as similar to a SL birthday region, or it could be seen as similar to a Welcome Area.  Soliciting for money is ok on a birthday event region, but not ok at a Welcome Area

i am with Sylvia, clarification from Patch Linden would be good.  Otherwise running around on the fairgrounds wearing a big sign saying "Give Me Money!" is going to be a thing

[Jaylinbridges]

15 minutes ago, Seba Serpente said:

The covenant applies to the whole parcel regardless of height.

The covenant only says "  *Activities and items that could be construed as commercial and for profit by Linden Lab are not permitted in the residential homes and houseboats in Bellisseria."  A skybox at 3900 meters above ground is not a residential home or houseboat.  Patch's argument for no commercial activity in and around homes is to maintain the residential character of the neighborhood, below 2000 meters.  There are not LH homes or neighborhoods above 2000 meters.  So no, the Covenant does not answer my question at all.

 

Edited July 7, 2019 by Jaylinbridges

[Seba Serpente]

5 minutes ago, Jaylinbridges said:

The covenant only says "  *Activities and items that could be construed as commercial and for profit by Linden Lab are not permitted in the residential homes and houseboats in Bellisseria."  A skybox at 3900 meters above ground is not a residential home or houseboat.  Patch's argument for no commercial activity in and around homes is to maintain the residential character of the neighborhood, below 2000 meters.  There are not LH homes or neighborhoods above 2000 meters.  So no, the Covenant does not answer my question at all.

 

The whole parcel, at any height, is a Linden Home parcel; The parcel is the linden home. I am sure he does not only means the physical home you see on ground level. The 2000 meter restriction is just for placing skyboxes, so you dont have vissible boxes floating around if you are at ground level, hoever, the conduct and commercial/advertisement rules applies up there regardless. What also does not applies, cause it just doesnt makes sence, is the visual guidelines of keeping it looking tidy and in theme, since a floating box is already breaking that.

Edited July 7, 2019 by Seba Serpente

[Mollymews]

6 minutes ago, Jaylinbridges said:

The covenant only says "  *Activities and items that could be construed as commercial and for profit by Linden Lab are not permitted in the residential homes and houseboats in Bellisseria."  A skybox at 3900 meters above ground is not a residential home or houseboat.  Patch's argument for no commercial activity in and around homes is to maintain the residential character of the neighborhood, below 2000 meters.  There are not LH homes or neighborhoods above 2000 meters.  So no, the Covenant does not answer my question at all.

 

umm!

this has to be the most convoluted rationale ever

so I got nothing. just umm! :😻

[Jaylinbridges]

1 minute ago, Seba Serpente said:

The whole parcel, at any height, is a Linden Home parcel; The parcel is the linden home. I am sure he does not only means the physical home you see on ground level. The 2000 meter restriction is just for placing skyboxes, so you dont have vissible boxes floating around if you are at ground level, hoever, the rules also applies up there just like if the home was up there.

I which case Patches argument for no commercial activity around homes does not really apply, since there is no neighborhood 3900 meters in the sky. Above 2000 meters, basically anything goes, except don't ever set an item for sale inside your skybox invisible building.  Patch needs a better reason for no commercialization inside invisible low traffic skyboxes.

[Sylvia Tamalyn]

Just now, Jaylinbridges said:

I which case Patches argument for no commercial activity around homes does not really apply, since there is no neighborhood 3900 meters in the sky. Above 2000 meters, basically anything goes, except don't ever set an item for sale inside your skybox invisible building.  Patch needs a better reason for no commercialization inside invisible low traffic skyboxes.

"Anything goes" for skyboxes? That's an interesting, but inaccurate, interpretation of the covenants. I have a feeling that Governance would not agree. 

[PrudenceAnton]

Linden land covenants can be rather grey is some areas. I think its best to direct the question to @Patch Linden

The Fair grounds certainly seem to run by a different code than residential areas and well it should be.  Its main focus is entertainment to the Bellisseria community and any/all Second Life residents attending advertised events, to enjoy themselves.  I don't have an issue with Tip Jars being approved for these type of events outside the residential zoning areas.

I'm certain in the near future, bookings will be marked on the calendar for charity events whose primary purpose is to raise money for a cause.  There will be tip jars out.  Yes, its for a non profit, but clarity on when tip jars are and are not allowed in a non residential area for venues should be clarified by @Patch Linden for the community asking these questions as this new continent's regions are mapped out and will mostly likely, have a few regions zoned differently than residential regions.

[Beth Macbain]

Well... this certainly blew up while I was asleep.

Let me be clear... I have absolutely, positively NO problem with the Pirate DJs. I think you guys and gals are fabulous and I love what you're doing and how you're doing it!

I don't have a problem with a DJ who didn't know the rules coming in and earning a buttload as long as he truly didn't know the rules. DJs make money from tips... we all know that's just standard practice and I'm going to go on the assumption that he didn't know he was breaking the rules, or there was a special dispensation of the rules for this event that wasn't passed on to everyone. 

Let's not get out in the weeds on this and make it a "well if he can do this, why can't I do that" kind of thing. We all know perfectly well that the answer to than is just "No." Clearly. The covenant is absolutely clear on that. 

Somewhere yesterday there was a miscommunication, either from the organizers to the DJ, or the Lindens to the organizers, or the organizers to the Lindens, or the organizers and/or Lindens to the rest of the community to let us know an exception to the rules had been made for the ONE TIME event, and if an exception was made, that's okay.  

We don't have to make this a big deal, and it doesn't need to be a witch hunt. It's a question the event organizers can answer (and I probably should have gone straight to them. My mistake and I apologize.)  I understand that the organizers worked their butts off putting the event together. Things slip through the cracks and that doesn't mean it's the end-all and be-all of every thing ever. It's a learning experience for everyone who plans on using the fabulous fairgrounds in the future. 

Let's look for solutions instead of finger-pointing and assuming the worst. Perhaps a contract of sorts needs to be put together that is specific to the Fairgrounds? Something publicly available for the community to see, and that anyone organizing an event at the Fairgrounds needs to agree to beforehand? It could even be a stickied thread here. The rules, and then the organizers have to acknowledge them publicly in the forums? I don't know... I'm sure there are other and better ways.

I don't know that I have an issue with tip jars being allowed at big events like that, either. DJs work hard. It's not a matter of just turning on a stream. 

I just think that it's wise to get out ahead of this before we get too far down the road and another 4,000 residents have moved in with their own ideas of what is acceptable or not. 

And the end of the day, we have to remember that Bellisseria is the bomb-diggity from top to bottom and we want it to stay that way because it's a fabulous gift provided by the Lindens and Moles and we LOVE IT!

[Seba Serpente]

3 minutes ago, Jaylinbridges said:

I which case Patches argument for no commercial activity around homes does not really apply, since there is no neighborhood 3900 meters in the sky. Above 2000 meters, basically anything goes, except don't ever set an item for sale inside your skybox invisible building.  Patch needs a better reason for no commercialization inside invisible low traffic skyboxes.

Haven't seen anywhere anything that says that the neighborhood stops at a certain height. That's like saying half of a skyscrapper is no longer part of a city cause the upper floors are too high.

[Jaylinbridges]

23 minutes ago, Seba Serpente said:

Haven't seen anywhere anything that says that the neighborhood stops at a certain height. That's like saying half of a skyscrapper is no longer part of a city cause the upper floors are too high.

The Lindens (Moles) build and own the buildings below 2000 meters in Bellisseria.  If they want to build a 2000 meter high skyscraper then that's part of the city.  Above that height, private skyboxes are allowed and owned by residents.  I can't see how you can have an LH neighborhood in the same space where anyone can rezz a skybox.  So yes, I think LH neighborhoods stop at 2000 meters. 

And of course they do have a 15 meter height limitation for residents adding structures on their parcel. ( *Privacy walls or fences should match the theme and extend no more than 4m above ground level. All other structures should not extend higher than 15m above ground level or sea level, whichever is higher.)

Edited July 7, 2019 by Jaylinbridges

[kiramanell]

28 minutes ago, Fushichou Mfume said:

Indeed. The covenant is identical on every parcel and region in Bellisseria. Even the full water regions. Even the fairgrounds--go look! Therefore.....

I mean really, do we need to split hairs and do rules-lawyering and call for a Linden to come in yet again and interpret what is a pretty clear set of guidelines already?  Belli, in its entirety, is "Linden Covenant Land". We've heard Patch say this in the past. The non-commercial spirit of the covenant is clear and unambiguous. Asking for tips is clearly a commercial activity; it's literally asking for a profit in return for a service, which is clearly and unambiguously "of a commercial nature". The covenant is clearly and unambiguously against commercial activity of any sort. The convent is on every single region in Belli--even the "protected" regions. Therefore....

 

You speak in absolutes, but things get a little less 'clear and unambiguous' when you get to the details. Like while 'Asking for tips is clearly a commercial activity,' just putting out a tip jar isn't the same as asking for money per se. One could argue it's merely a matter of having rezzed a courtesy box, saying "If you liked what you saw, consider tipping me, maybe; or not, up to you." And it's still not mandatory. If I buy a dress, I have to pay for it. That's 'literally asking for a profit in return for a service.' Putting up a donation box, for instance, in Church, is a lot more ambiguous, as there's no 'quid pro quo' situation going on; aka, you're not barred from the services if you don't pay. It may all sound the same to you, but there's really a distinction.  

Tip-jars are advertising, though, and there's no way to get around regarding them any other way. But even advertising isn't outright forbidden at Bellisseria (see the old 'Show Homes' thread, where Patch declared that some advertising is allowed, provided you're not selling goods at Bellisseria, or directing ppl off to a shop elsewhere). And again, I'm not entirely sold on the absoluteness of the idea that putting out a donation box is the same as selling goods.

Understand that this is a largely an academic point I'm making, though. Nevertheless, Patch clearly indicated that they might be open to some sort of (semi-) commercial activity on the new fairgrounds. And maybe it would really behoove the Lindens to look into Events as well (possibly on those selfsame fairgrounds), as I can definitely see how the existence of tip-jars, for the various performers, might be deemed 'fair' there, yea, welcomed even.

So, yeah, I'm with Sylvia on this: would be nice to hear from Patch about this.

[Seba Serpente]

5 minutes ago, Jaylinbridges said:

The Lindens build and own the buildings below 2000 meters in Bellisseria.  If they want to build a 2000 meter high skyscraper then that's part of the city.  Above that height, private skyboxes are allowed and owned by residents.  I can't see how you can have a LH neighborhood in the same space where anyone can rezz a skybox.  So yes, I think LH neighborhoods stop at 2000 meters. 

And of course they do have a 15 meter height limitation for residents adding structures on their parcel. ( *Privacy walls or fences should match the theme and extend no more than 4m above ground level. All other structures should not extend higher than 15m above ground level or sea level, whichever is higher.)

The visually regulated neighborhood stops at 2000, the governance doesnt.

I encourage you to put a small store avobe 2000, there is no discovery without some experimenting.

Edited July 7, 2019 by Seba Serpente

[hawksea80]

Just to reply again I have a DJ jingle I play at the very start of all of my sets. Just introduced me. If you were at my set you'd know what im on about. I asked permission to play it because I wasnt sure if it was commercial. A jingle. With my name. Hopes we get a great answer soon but in meantime when im djing at the pickle there will be no tip jar.