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1 hour ago, TheaDee said:

Tilia is owned by Linden Research and appears to be set up as a separate entity that can offer money handling services to other clients.   They have gotten licensing through many states (I didn't stop to count if it is *all* but I am sure it will be by August 1) to comply with money handling regulations.  These licenses come with very specific security and regulatory requirements, including protection of personal information.  I sincerely doubt a registered corporation would be careless with this info.

Correct. Tilia is a Money Transmitter in compliance with US federal and state laws, and is effectively a service provider to (hopefully) multiple clients, including SL and Sansar.

1 hour ago, TheaDee said:

As far as I can tell, the process for *buying* Lindens won't change.   My screen when I go to buy Lindens has said "powered by Tilia" for quite a while now.   

The Lab has stated there is no requirement to provide personal info (beyond what is currently required) to purchase L$.

 

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'What’s changing? 

Effective August 1, in order to continue using Second Life you will have to agree to Tilia’s Terms of Service and Privacy Policy.  A Tilia Account associated with your Second Life Account will automatically be created for you and you will not need a separate username or password to access your Tilia Account.'

@Linden Lab

My concern (and I have sent message to LL before concerning this) is that there is NOT a separate password to access the financial transactions in SL. I worry about the possibility of someone breaking into my account and having access to my rl bank/paypal to move money into SL and steal it. 

I wish for a second password, different from sign in, to protect money transfers. 

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Just now, CheriColette said:

'What’s changing? 

Effective August 1, in order to continue using Second Life you will have to agree to Tilia’s Terms of Service and Privacy Policy.  A Tilia Account associated with your Second Life Account will automatically be created for you and you will not need a separate username or password to access your Tilia Account.'

@Linden Lab

My concern (and I have sent message to LL before concerning this) is that there is NOT a separate password to access the financial transactions in SL. I worry about the possibility of someone breaking into my account and having access to my rl bank/paypal to move money into SL and steal it. 

I wish for a second password, different from sign in, to protect money transfers. 

Good point, CheriColette. 👍

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Well, in real life, I'm a lawyer whose focus area happens to be . . . contracts. I'm no longer active, but I daresay I can still figure out a contract. 

I'm going to try and sit down with the contract sometime this week and figure it out. My initial reaction to this news is to sell my land, downgrade to basic membership, insist very strongly on a full refund for the 3 premium accounts I re-upped for a year and a pro rata refund for those that are premium now, and delete my credit card info from Linden Lab servers. But I'll wait and make a final decision once I have sat down and really studied the new TOS. 

Linden Labs, I am very disappointed in you. I have been defending you quite a bit lately. I won't defend you over this. Some have accused you of a bait and switch over the Linden Homes and they were wrong. But inducing people to re-up for another year and then springing a change in the terms of service a week later is a true bait and switch.

 

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18 minutes ago, Hawk Silverman said:

So, does this inactivity fee apply to the Lindens I have stored in my account? If so, goodbye Second Life. I'm not going to be nickeled and dimed just because I forgot I had a buck fifty sitting in an alt account from 10 years ago.

No. This applies to cash balances. If you look at your Account Summary on the Dashboard, you will see they are two separate things. 

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1 minute ago, CheriColette said:

My concern (and I have sent message to LL before concerning this) is that there is NOT a separate password to access the financial transactions in SL. I worry about the possibility of someone breaking into my account and having access to my rl bank/paypal to move money into SL and steal it.

With the terms of service as written, you have no effective recourse if that happens.

We've seen this in other areas. Notably "Bitcoin exchanges", which tended to have terms like Tilia is proposing. They were regularly "hacked", in many cases probably by insiders, and didn't take responsibility for loss of customer funds. This was enough of a problem that most of the remaining Bitcoin exchanges had to accept some regulation.

Contracts for financial services that disclaim all responsibility are usually associated with bottom-feeder companies.

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36 minutes ago, Charolotte Caxton said:

They want my Social Security Number just so I can exist in my virtual world? F u Linden Lab. Give me your name, address and social and I will happily mail you a check for a million dollars.

Only if you want to cash out -- not just to continue using SL.

 

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it's simple to understand it is in regards to those who "Cash out" and the pending USD value is show in cash balances that can then be transferred to papal ect, or the new tilia service transfer options. 

You will not incur a fee if you have no USD valued linden that has been "Cashed out" waiting transfer to a real account. 

In regards to those who have virtual businesses that cash out to real life, yes you will have to provide all the information. Since it is real life earnings, transfers, and money movement, it must comply with the regulations imposed on Linden Labs, 

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When I do a live music gig these days, I am lucky if I make enough money to buy a donut.  I can't justify giving my SS# to some company I have never heard about before today for a lousy donut!  

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On the upside...

Everyone trying to get a Linden home fire up those auto-refreshes...

I predict a new wave of premature house abandonments 

**please don't throw rocks... goes and hides**

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Very sad to hear and read about this all, was going my way all through the forum posts here tonight. Thanks everyone for discussing and explaining! It was so confusing at first! Also to LL to clarify some points.

But i am still not happy about this at all.. i made an alt premium because of the  LL homes and i added to both accounts a year more with the old fee. Thanks for that chance, LL!

Still, with this switch of TOS i am so not happy, feeling sort of cheated. First got seduced and then a kick in the butt! Since i do not cash out it affects me not much, but why force your customers this way into such a risky adventure like Tilia is! I have lots of friends who are little creators, DJs and other folks who cash out small amounts of money to make their RL a bit better.

Just spoils the positive emotions i got recently towards the Lindens :/

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57 minutes ago, Hawk Silverman said:

So, does this inactivity fee apply to the Lindens I have stored in my account? If so, goodbye Second Life. I'm not going to be nickeled and dimed just because I forgot I had a buck fifty sitting in an alt account from 10 years ago.

Don't give them any ideas! :o

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, summernightsdream said:

but why force your customers this way into such a risky adventure like Tilia is! I have lots of friends who are little creators, DJs and other folks who cash out small amounts of money to make their RL a bit better.

What's risky about Tilia? We've probably technically been using it for a few years now already, only main difference now is it'll have it's own separate site we have to go through.

Edited by Digit Gears
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Posted (edited)
58 minutes ago, Inara Pey said:

Correct. Tilia is a Money Transmitter in compliance with US federal and state laws, and is effectively a service provider to (hopefully) multiple clients, including SL and Sansar.

The Lab has stated there is no requirement to provide personal info (beyond what is currently required) to purchase L$.

 

 

Edited by Caleb Kit
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1 minute ago, Digit Gears said:

What's risky about Tilia? We've probably technically been using it for a few years now already, only main difference now is it'll have it's own separate site we have to go through.

If it wasn't changing anything there wouldn't be an announcement about it changing. I highly doubt it's so simple as going through a different website. Our funds will be going to a different company, one that is part of the LL family but a separate entity. How do we know that won't change the process in other ways? For example, do premium members no longer get expedited assistance with Tilia like we do for SL?

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, Evangeline Ling said:

On the upside...

Everyone trying to get a Linden home fire up those auto-refreshes...

I predict a new wave of premature house abandonments 

**please don't throw rocks... goes and hides**

/me throws a grain of sand at you "Take that you... you... you auto refresher you!"

 

 

 

PDP_DT_Car_NewCar.png

Edited by Selene Gregoire
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So I have had wine (some cheap and now some better *wink*) and I had a lovely time in the garden which was CALMING.

 

Here is my bottom line thought.    

I understand why people that want to cash out would need a Tilia account and to go through all the verification steps (note that the privacy page says that you may need to give them credit report info????? What????) and all that jazz. Cashing out is an OPT IN action.

 

What I do NOT understand by any stretch of the imagination is why avatars (typists - people) that are NOT cashing out need to AUTOMATICALLY have a Tilia account that they DO NOT WANT. 

 

PLEASE ADDRESS THAT QUESTION oh Powers That Be. Thank you. 

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2 minutes ago, Dima Plessis said:

If it wasn't changing anything there wouldn't be an announcement about it changing. I highly doubt it's so simple as going through a different website. Our funds will be going to a different company, one that is part of the LL family but a separate entity. How do we know that won't change the process in other ways? For example, do premium members no longer get expedited assistance with Tilia like we do for SL?

Well, as I said, I'm quite certain our money has already been going to Tilia.

image.png.c298d7500fce75831757d5121ffe2b28.png

You might notice a reoccurring theme in all the money related sections of our accounts, and that's been there for awhile now.

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1 minute ago, Chic Aeon said:

note that the privacy page says that you may need to give them credit report info?????

They'd be squeezing blood from a turnip. Mine is blank. I have no credit and don't have any plans on spending what few years I have left of this life paying off credit. 

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'Data mining' for future profit comes to mind. They already have our relevant info. Enough is enough.

Incidentally, Inara Pey mentioned Tilia back in 2015: https://modemworld.me/tag/tilia/

Quote:

The subsidiary company is called Tilia Inc., and at first glance it seems to be completely unrelated to the Lab, being referred to as being involved with ” Packaging Machinery”. However, an examination of the company’s papers will reveal it is registered at 945 Battery Street – the Lab’s headquarters, as a check on Buzzfile confirmed to me.

Tilia Inc appears to be a defunct corporate entity, first registered in 2002, which has been acquired by the Lab. This, and the further registrations of the name across several US states  as a “foreign” entity (meaning the filing is by an existing corporate entity registered in another US state), tended to suggest the Lab might be using the company to leverage certain tax advantages – a common practice among corporations around the world.

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Lots of good questions and comments! For those who missed our first round of follow-up responses on page 5, you can view those here. We’ll continue to monitor this thread actively over the next few days for further questions and comments. Please note that we may not be able to respond immediately to all questions but we are continuing to actively read and review this thread.

Here are some more answers to some of your questions:

If I’m only using Linden Dollars, does this impact me at all?

No. If you are only using Linden Dollars, and do not have a USD balance, the ID requirements and the inactivity fee has no impact on your ability to continue using Second Life. For example, it doesn’t impact or change your ability to pay for Land Tier or other activities with Linden Dollars.

Does this inactivity fee apply to the Lindens I have stored in my account?

No. This fee would only apply to those accounts with USD balances which have not accessed their Tilia account in any way (for example, to check balance) or had any credit processing transactions over a period of 12 months or more.

Will this impact our Premium stipend? (No more L$300 per month? Will we get a token or is this on top of the L$300?) 

This will have no impact on the Premium stipend. 

I do have a cash balance, but I am not an SL content creator. I upload money, which goes towards my Premium payments. So does that mean it will affect me too? 

This should not affect you if you are only using your money for Premium payments. For those who are carrying a USD balance to pay Premium, you would need to be active on that account at least once in12 months to avoid the inactivity fee. Thus, paying your annual Premium qualifies as activity.

Will our information be stored in plain text?  

No!  We treat the security of any personally identifiable information with the utmost care.  Your information is encrypted and locked down to only be accessible by specific people who have a business need to access your information. Our practices are compliant with applicable U.S. regulations and laws. 

Will EVERYONE who uses Second Life have to agree to the new Tilia TOS and Privacy Policy - or just those who use credit processing in USD?

*Note: the answer to this question was edited on July 12 to reflect the most up to date information*

Only those who have a USD wallet need to consent to Tilia’s ToS. If you have a USD wallet, these will be presented to you when you log in to your SL account on the web.

I have already provided my personal info to Linden Lab in the past. Do I need to provide it again? Many of us have already provided such ID information for verification, are we exempt from having to provide it again because the information is already on record?

In general, most Residents will not need to resubmit the information if it has been previously provided. However, there may be some instances where Tilia may need to collect and verify the documentation again. 

Do I REALLY need to provide my social security number? I just want to enjoy Second Life and I’m not comfortable sharing that information.

The verification requirement applies only to Second Life Residents who process credit of their USD balance to their payment method (e.g. PayPal). The ID verification requirement is necessary for compliance with U.S. money transmitter laws and regulations, such as the USA PATRIOT Act and the Prepaid Access Rule. For those Residents who are not U.S. persons, they will need to provide a government issued ID. 

Can Tilia transfer our funds directly to our bank accounts/direct deposit? 

No, Tilia cannot transfer directly to bank accounts at this time.

Will Residents need to use Tilia to buy Linden Dollars?

No, Residents can continue to use the payment method on file to buy Linden Dollars. In this case, since there is no Tilia involvement there is no need to provide ID or SSN.

We also acknowledge that there have been some inquiries asking for more specifics about the Tilia ID verification process, procedures, and timing. Stay tuned for more details in the near future.

We’ll be back tomorrow with more responses!
 

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4 minutes ago, Digit Gears said:

Well, as I said, I'm quite certain our money has already been going to Tilia.

image.png.c298d7500fce75831757d5121ffe2b28.png

You might notice a reoccurring theme in all the money related sections of our accounts, and that's been there for awhile now.

Yes, but this was all done with no change to the user experience. NOW we will have to verify our identity through another company, with more documents than before, and we cannot apply until after the switch happens which means all of us will be sitting in a long line together come August 2nd, unable to cash out until we're approved which could take a month IF the process goes smoothly.

Additionally, if we're now going to be going through another company owned by LL. How do we know things will not change to include more fees, more restrictions on cashing out, etc. They can change the terms of service at any time, and once we're all going through a separate company whose entire business is making money off of exchanges of virtual money I am willing to bet the TOS and fees will be revised at some point in the near future, after we're all chained to Tilia.

Will these changes include any improvement to the user experience. I doubt it, because I would think if there was anything good to say about this switch they would be telling us now to keep us happy.

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1 minute ago, Evangeline Ling said:

Ok...

Somebody had to give Tilia a mascot...

 

Tilia.jpg

Cheap fish.... now why does that seem so appropriate?

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If they require a social security number for US citizens is that even legal, and how do we know that they won't be used, I don't trust this company to have my social they dont need it. 

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