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I've never actually cashed out Lindens or linked a PayPal account to a bank account and I didn't have to enter any new information when I checked my billing info. At least in the US, if you have payment info on file, they likely already have enough info for Tilia processing. If you're doing something you'd think the US government would be the least interested in, you have a lot more problems than Tilia having information that is likely already searchable on the net in multiple locations. Just saying.

 

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13 hours ago, chardonay Babii said:

In that the official thread is closed to questions I'd love these concerns addressed.

Assuming data encryption makes data theft impossible as stated what happens in the event of the following..

Regarding providing my Australian government document with a photo ID-

What guarantee is there the subsidiary company will not be sold off or end up in the hands of another owner that can change the TOS as stated in the TIia TOS the company can do.  To what extent is the subsequent owner of the company  at liberty to to protect and not sell my data?

In the event the US government changes privacy laws and can force the owner of Tilia to hand over my data what protection is in place to stop the US govt from building a personal  profile on non US citizens using the supplied sensitive dcument/s?

Similar questions in the event of a court order to supply data during an investigation?

What protection do you have against the Australian government changing their own privacy laws?

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1 hour ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

What protection do you have against the Australian government changing their own privacy laws?

Australia no longer has privacy laws surely with the bill they pushed through at the last year to force australian companies to back door their systems upon request.  What was it their pm said ? Something about the laws of Australia superceding the laws of mathematics. This is why no one should ever trust a company with a prescence in Australia with any of your data

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16 hours ago, chardonay Babii said:

What guarantee is there the subsidiary company will not be sold off or end up in the hands of another owner that can change the TOS as stated in the TIia TOS the company can do.  To what extent is the subsequent owner of the company  at liberty to to protect and not sell my data?

The Tilia TOS as it was in July (I haven't reread but likely the same) states that the TOS can be changed AT ANY TIME.  So Linden Lab can change it; Tilia doesn't need to be sold to have changes happen. That was also affirmed  in the Town Hall video.    

 

 

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On 8/9/2019 at 6:58 PM, Selene Gregoire said:

If you never cash out you never have to agree to the Tilia terms. It is that simple. I never cash out and didn't have to agree. Of course, I'm the one that brought up the fact that the way they were doing things was coercion and they did back track on making everyone agree when they realized I knew wtf I was talking about. They know they would lose in court which is exactly where they were going to find themselves if they had persisted.

Actually that is wrong. If you hit some non-disclosed amount of L$ when selling them on the LindeX, you will be asked for additional information before being allowed to even sell L$ again. My sim owner account which sells L$ worth approx U$12k per year was hit by this request and was told this from support. Support also said that they are in contact with those who can edit the FAQ to have that added there. So if you need to sell L$ to pay for your region fees, you better don't wait for the last day and make sure that you can actually sell. Trying to cash out isn't the only trigger for data collection.

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18 hours ago, chardonay Babii said:

Assuming data encryption makes data theft impossible as stated what happens in the event of the following..

Just to be pedantic, data encryption doesn't make data theft impossible.  The data is in two forms, either at rest or in motion.

In the case of encrypted data which is sitting on a disk which is not being powered, then it's at rest and generally pretty secure (depending on the security of the key), however, that won't be the case with a database which is being accessed all the time.

In this case, the data will be accessed and a running process will have a copy of the block cipher key in memory and the data when it is decrypted will be in a clear text state in memory.

The general concern is for a "database" being physically stolen where it is considered that the data is secure due to the attacker not having knowledge of the key.  However, the astute attacker isn't interested in trying to brute force the encryption, that's not feasible but rather the attack is to either obtain the data in a decrypted state, i.e. while it's in that state in memory, although this is also largely pointless because the attackers view would only be of that portion of data presently being accessed.

So, the attacker is really interested in getting hold of a copy of that block cipher key while it's in memory.  With that and the static database then they're good to go.

It would also be expected that the database is not necessarily entirely encrypted with the same key but in blocks, however each key is derived in some way from the previous one thus overall knowledge of this is where the fun happens.

Anyway, the above does require an advanced attack.

I'm still more curious as to whether LL will be storing the PII which is being submitted because once the user has been validated, the only thing they need to keep is the status which indicates as much.  Will they be storing PII in the form of government documents which have been scanned and if so why? Overall, i'm not really fussed one way or another, just curious.

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2 hours ago, Daniel Regenbogen said:

Trying to cash out isn't the only trigger for data collection.

I suspect this may be partly a terminology confusion. Apparently the standard usage of "cash out" puts the emphasis on "cash" -- the LindeX conversion from L$s to US$s within the account -- rather than on "out", instead using "process credit" to refer to transfer of US$s out of the SL account to PayPal, Skrill, etc.

(Until all this Tilia brouhaha began, I'd long used "cash out" to refer to that funds transfer, apparently incorrectly.)

All that said, my current understanding is that data provided to Linden Lab, necessary to enable large-volume LindeX transactions, does not apply to Tilia, which only gets involved with the funds transfers, not conversions from L$s to US$s. 

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

I suspect this may be partly a terminology confusion. Apparently the standard usage of "cash out" puts the emphasis on "cash" -- the LindeX conversion from L$s to US$s within the account -- rather than on "out", instead using "process credit" to refer to transfer of US$s out of the SL account to PayPal, Skrill, etc.

(Until all this Tilia brouhaha began, I'd long used "cash out" to refer to that funds transfer, apparently incorrectly.)

All that said, my current understanding is that data provided to Linden Lab, necessary to enable large-volume LindeX transactions, does not apply to Tilia, which only gets involved with the funds transfers, not conversions from L$s to US$s. 

I can only tell you what happened to me, no matter if you call it "cash out" or "process credit". Simply selling "too many" L$ on the LindeX is enough to get blocked from selling more L$ until the wanted data is provided (according to Live Chat). Even without even looking at the "Process Credit" link I can't start another sale. This is from the LindeX Sell L$ page:

***
Before we can proceed with your requested Linden Dollar Sale, we are required to collect some information from you as detailed here. Please click Provide Additional Information to proceed to the submission form. this information will be used pursuant to Tilia's terms of service and privacy policy to process your future credit requests.
***

This account as far as I remember never was used to process any credit out of SL.

 

Edited by Daniel Regenbogen

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It may depend on the account or maybe it's just a random thing.  My in-world income and expenses are almost always nearly balanced so, as far as I can remember, I have never processed credit to send cash out of SL since 2007.  Still, I have sold L$ regularly to pay the monthly land fees on my region.  I did it the other day, as usual at the last minute.  I was only asked to check the little box to accept the Tilia TOS.  No fuss.  The sale went through a half hour later.

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2 hours ago, Daniel Regenbogen said:

Actually that is wrong. If you hit some non-disclosed amount of L$ when selling them on the LindeX, you will be asked for additional information before being allowed to even sell L$ again. My sim owner account which sells L$ worth approx U$12k per year was hit by this request and was told this from support. Support also said that they are in contact with those who can edit the FAQ to have that added there. So if you need to sell L$ to pay for your region fees, you better don't wait for the last day and make sure that you can actually sell. Trying to cash out isn't the only trigger for data collection.

No, I am not wrong. I don't sell Ls. Ever. If you are selling Ls then chances are you are withdrawing. I. DO. NOT. SELL. Ls NOR DO I WITHDRAW REAL MONEY FROM SL in any form.

Get it through your thick skulls.

I. DO. NOT. SELL. Ls NOR DO I WITHDRAW REAL MONEY FROM SL in any form. 

I. DO. NOT. SELL. Ls NOR DO I WITHDRAW REAL MONEY FROM SL in any form. 

I. DO. NOT. SELL. Ls NOR DO I WITHDRAW REAL MONEY FROM SL in any form. 

I. DO. NOT. SELL. Ls NOR DO I WITHDRAW REAL MONEY FROM SL in any form. 

Never have and at this rate I damn sure never will.

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2 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

No, I am not wrong. I don't sell Ls. Ever. If you are selling Ls then chances are you are withdrawing. I. DO. NOT. SELL. Ls NOR DO I WITHDRAW REAL MONEY FROM SL in any form.

Get it through your thick skulls.

 

Yes, you are wrong. Quote: "If you never cash out you never have to agree to the Tilia terms. It is that simple."

 

Having US$ in your account from selling L$ is enough for having to agree to the Tilia terms. Selling high numbers of L$ without cashing out can be enough for having to provide additional personal info.

 

Get it through your thick skull.

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Just now, Daniel Regenbogen said:

Yes, you are wrong. Quote: "If you never cash out you never have to agree to the Tilia terms. It is that simple."

 

Having US$ in your account from selling L$ is enough for having to agree to the Tilia terms. Selling high numbers of L$ without cashing out can be enough for having to provide additional personal info.

 

Get it through your thick skull.

I have never had a USD balance. Never will. I have not had to agree to Tilia TOS to buy Ls. I have not had to agree to Tilia just to be able to log in because as LL found out that is coercion and quite illegal in the US.

NO USD BALANCE.

NO LS SOLD.

NO CASH WITHDRAWALS

NO TILIA TOS AGREEMENT POPUP.

FULL STOP.

 

 LL also thought I didn't know wtf I was talking about regarding coercion until they found out I do know wtf I am talking about and dropped the attempt to force everyone to agree to Tilia. Go read that long thread and you'll see mine is the very first response on that very subject.

Enjoy your SL. It's the only SL you've got.

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9 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

I have never had a USD balance. Never will. I have not had to agree to Tilia TOS to buy Ls. I have not had to agree to Tilia just to be able to log in because as LL found out that is coercion and quite illegal in the US.

 

My goodness, this is NOT about YOU! You are not the center of the universe, not even the center of SL! I know that someone using SL the way you do has not to agree to the Tilia TOS - I have a couple of such accounts myself! I also have an account that sells enough L$ each year to cover the premium membership (and cashed out aka processed credit twice in 13 years, the last time maybe 8 years ago) - with this one I only had to agree to the Tilia TOS but not provide aditional personal data. And I have my SIM owner account that doesn't cash out aka process credit but sells high amounts of L$ (well, high for little me) that not only had to agree to the Tilia TOS but also provide aditional data for just selling the next batch of L$. Just in case this is the cause for your confusion: "cash out" for me means "taking money out of SL". Simply selling L$ to cover SL fees is not cashing out.

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31 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

I have never had a USD balance. Never will. I have not had to agree to Tilia TOS to buy Ls.

You're not even talking about the same thing? Why are you yelling on the internet?

Daniel: "Selling lots of lindens means you might have to identify yourself."
Selene: "THAT IS NOT TRUE, I HAVE NEVER SOLD LINDENS AND NEVER WILL!! SCREEE"

How are you this disconnected from a two-party conversation?

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38 minutes ago, Daniel Regenbogen said:

My goodness, this is NOT about YOU! You are not the center of the universe, not even the center of SL! I know that someone using SL the way you do has not to agree to the Tilia TOS - I have a couple of such accounts myself! I also have an account that sells enough L$ each year to cover the premium membership (and cashed out aka processed credit twice in 13 years, the last time maybe 8 years ago) - with this one I only had to agree to the Tilia TOS but not provide aditional personal data. And I have my SIM owner account that doesn't cash out aka process credit but sells high amounts of L$ (well, high for little me) that not only had to agree to the Tilia TOS but also provide aditional data for just selling the next batch of L$. Just in case this is the cause for your confusion: "cash out" for me means "taking money out of SL". Simply selling L$ to cover SL fees is not cashing out.

Now you are jumping to conclusions. But then you must be that rare type of person who never ever uses their own experiences as examples and believes anyone that does is making everything all about themselves when nothing could be further from the truth. 

Enjoy your SL. It's the only SL you've got. Ta.

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3 hours ago, Daniel Regenbogen said:

I can only tell you what happened to me, no matter if you call it "cash out" or "process credit". Simply selling "too many" L$ on the LindeX is enough to get blocked from selling more L$ until the wanted data is provided (according to Live Chat). Even without even looking at the "Process Credit" link I can't start another sale. This is from the LindeX Sell L$ page:

***
Before we can proceed with your requested Linden Dollar Sale, we are required to collect some information from you as detailed here. Please click Provide Additional Information to proceed to the submission form. this information will be used pursuant to Tilia's terms of service and privacy policy to process your future credit requests.
***

This account as far as I remember never was used to process any credit out of SL.

[emphasis mine]

Yes, I understand, and I'm super eager to set aside terminology (especially inasmuch as it now seems not to be the root of the original disagreement after all; I was wrong about that).

What I didn't understand until the quoted post was that the high volume LindeX sales are now contingent on the seller supplying additional information in accordance with Tilia's ToS. That's the part of the quote I bolded. But see also the part bolded in red. that refers to processing "your future credit requests." But you weren't trying to process credit (Tilia-speak for US$ funds transfer out of the account), which is the part we all thought required agreement to the Tilia ToS.

I'm thinking there's a glitch here, possibly just hold-over language from some previous idea of how and when Tilia gets involved. Or maybe I just don't understand how it all works. (But somebody damn well better understand which entity has possession of any US$ balance at every stage of the process, or there will be some very unhappy accountants in Linden Lab's future.)

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Posted (edited)
On 7/26/2019 at 7:27 PM, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Katsii, you don't need to provide your SSN unless YOU are transferring money out of SL. And you don't need to even accept the Tilia TOS unless you have USDs in your account on or after 1 August. 

Avoid those two conditions and this doesn't impact on you at all.

i tried to get all my lindens out by Aug 1, but i can't find out if i succeeded.  Why do they have to make everything so hard.  Also, can I pay for my premium year, etc. with lindens?

 

Edited by Katsii Tennen

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7 minutes ago, Katsii Tennen said:

 can I pay for my premium year, etc. with lindens?

no thats not possible, in strict meaning, L$ have no value, it are game tokens. Only after selling for USD it is real money.

 

 

9 minutes ago, Katsii Tennen said:

Why do they have to make everything so hard.

it isn't really, by doing one step at a time it's not more difficult than in real life.

 

 

10 minutes ago, Katsii Tennen said:

i tried to get all my lindens out by Aug 1, but i can't find out if i succeeded. 

if you mean you tried to sell all your L$ for USD you can see that at your account page, there should be a L$ balance and a USD balance
if you meant you made a process credit request you can see the history / progress at you accountpage with clicking the "manage" button and look at the order history.
 

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1 hour ago, Alwin Alcott said:

no thats not possible, in strict meaning, L$ have no value, it are game tokens. Only after selling for USD it is real money.

Unclear. Linden Lab says that. Whether the SEC and the IRS would agree is something else.

LL is desperately trying to avoid having to register Linden Dollars as a security. That may or may not succeed. The SEC is regulating cryptocurrencies more strictly, and they are fed up with the issuers running off with the cash.

Properly, LL should request a no-action letter from the SEC, like this one: https://www.sec.gov/corpfin/pocketful-quarters-inc-072519-2a1

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Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, animats said:

Properly, LL should request a no-action letter from the SEC, like this one: https://www.sec.gov/corpfin/pocketful-quarters-inc-072519-2a1

Quote
  • gamers will only be able to transfer Quarters from their Quarters Hot Wallets for gameplay to addresses of Developers with Approved Accounts or to PoQ in connection with participation in e-sports tournaments;

Sounds like there is no "cashing out" or withdrawing of funds of any kind. Which would kill SL in a heartbeat. If merchants can't withdraw funds there is no point in selling. That is how many creators will look at it and we will lose more all at once than ever in the history of SL, including SL itself.

At some point LL is going to have to knuckle under and the longer it takes the harder it will be on LL which in turn will make it harder on residents to adjust to some major changes. Delaying the legally inevitable is not a good thing to do when you are in business.

Edited by Selene Gregoire

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1 hour ago, animats said:

Unclear.

that's not the discussion here, it's about Tilia and/or problems concerning that.
For now it's a game token.

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5 hours ago, Katsii Tennen said:

i tried to get all my lindens out by Aug 1, but i can't find out if i succeeded.  Why do they have to make everything so hard.  Also, can I pay for my premium year, etc. with lindens?

 

 

You should be able to tell by looking in the backend webpage for the account that tried to transfer USD out of SL.  Mine only took a couple of days so if you haven't heard anything by now you better check to see what is happening.  Your money may be in limbo still and --- at least BEFORE Tilia  (not sure now) you only had so much time if you needed to respond with more information.   

 

RIGHT NOW you cannot pay for your tier or membership with Lindens. Patch said in the Tilia Town Hall meetings that could "possibly" (maybe? doubtful?  again, unclear) do that in the future.  No idea when or if that future might be or happen :D.

 

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I have a question about the utility bill required in the form, would it be still valid as proof of address even if I'm not the one who pays for it?

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3 minutes ago, StargalBinder said:

I have a question about the utility bill required in the form, would it be still valid as proof of address even if I'm not the one who pays for it?

it is to prove your identity, so if your name isn't on it i think they will request something different.
But the one to ask is support.

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