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2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:
7 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I assume that those of us without USD balances will never be asked to agree to the Tilia TOS, so this entire exercise is a waste of time for us!

Exactly. For those in this situation -- which is most of us -- this is all pretty irrelevant.

I'm not sure it's "most of us"....could be it's most of us on the forum though.

Just look at how many stores there are (although some use those $L proceeds for inworld purchases), and the millions  of usd cashed out each year.

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19 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I'm not sure it's "most of us"....could be it's most of us on the forum though.

Just look at how many stores there are (although some use those $L proceeds for inworld purchases), and the millions  of usd cashed out each year.

Good question! I don't think any of us have anything like a definitive answer to that, although presumably LL must.

For about 5 years I ran a very modest "business" in SL that made a profit of, I don't know, probably a couple of thousand L$s a month. I never converted any of that to USDs, and I certainly never cashed out into RL. If you look at the MP, you'll find a host of businesses that, I suspect, are rather like mine was: a few dozen items for sale, a pretty low profile on the retail landscape, and probably not a whole lot of cashing out going on.

My personal thought is that there might be a sizable minority of people who have some USD balance, but in most cases pretty small. The case of people processing credit out of SL is, I might hypothesize, quite a bit smaller than that.

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1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

I'm not sure it's "most of us"....could be it's most of us on the forum though.

Just look at how many stores there are (although some use those $L proceeds for inworld purchases), and the millions  of usd cashed out each year.

Of the people that I talked to about Tilia many never had processed credit to Paypal.  This was a surprise to me as some are fairly well known brands in events and such.   Some creators I talked to convert lindens to dollar (so they are working with Tilia and would need to accept the Tilia TOS but would not need to send in personal info) in order to pay tier and / or membership fees; they are in a middle ground.  A much smaller percentage make hundreds and thousands each month which are converted and become RL US dollars -- eventually in their banks.  

 

We no longer have any info on commerce within SL like the olden days, so we really can't tell, but from some polls I have seen (which of course have no proof behind them) it appears that a good portion of the money made in SL is in the hands of a small percentage of creators and likely some land barons too.   The people MOST likely affected by the Tilia change would be the creators that sell less than $600 a year (I am guessing that hasn't changed since I had to send in my personal info long ago)  BUT DO send those dollars on to Paypal.   Those people will NOW have to go through the verification process. They will also need to be more careful about claiming incomes --- at least that certainly SEEMS like it would be true; I have never received a 1099 form from LL, so until now people needed to be making some fairly big bucks :D to get reported. 

 

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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

so until now people needed to be making some fairly big bucks

No, it's always been a case of earnings over a certain amount established by the IRS which, in the past, had been anything over $600.00 USD. So if your earnings (money withdrawn from SL) for the fiscal year totaled $600.01, you must, by law, file a federal income tax return. I think the $600 was changed to a lower amount a few years ago. Or it may have been changed to the $600. I'd have to look it up again to be certain but the exact amount is beside the point.

The point is, by law, if you have an income over a certain amount for the fiscal year, you must file a federal income tax return and LL must send you a 1099 showing the income (and the amount) has been reported to the IRS. And that certain amount is relatively a low amount.

 

ETA: I should also mention that it is $600 per fiscal year from all sources of income, not just SL. LL is still required by law to send the 1099 on withdrawals over a certain amount per fiscal year.

Edited by Selene Gregoire
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On 7/1/2019 at 4:56 PM, NeoBokrug Elytis said:

As I understand, you have to provide your ID info only if you cash out from SL (Turning your L$ into your local currency).  Everyone seems to be missing this point, and freaking out.

Additionally, that fee seems to only apply if your account is INACTIVE, and I assume that it only applies to fiat currencies and not L$.

Honestly this opens up a lot of doors for LL as a registered Money Services Business.  They can skip paypal all together, act as a bank, and convert their own payments from any currency including crypto.  LL was already pretty much fronting all the liabilities without any of the benefits of being an MSB since day one.  So it really makes sense for it to be official now.

The operative word here is " it seems".  So if i dont' want to have any dollars in Tilia any more and NOT give my social security number and operate inworld purely with lindens and have people who pay me for inworld work send the money directly to paypal - Does that mean I am "INACTIVE" and subject to a charge?  If I buy lindens with paypal account - does that mean I have to give my social security number?   I'm getting pretty fed up.  

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2 minutes ago, Katsii Tennen said:

The operative word here is " it seems".

Reason for this is: almost none of us are lawyers - and those who are won't work for free - so everyone aside LL themselves will use evasive language to describe what their interpretion is - admitting "we don't know nothing for sure though" along the interpretations.

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4 minutes ago, Katsii Tennen said:

The operative word here is " it seems".  So if i dont' want to have any dollars in Tilia any more and NOT give my social security number and operate inworld purely with lindens and have people who pay me for inworld work send the money directly to paypal - Does that mean I am "INACTIVE" and subject to a charge?  If I buy lindens with paypal account - does that mean I have to give my social security number?   I'm getting pretty fed up.  

Katsii, you don't need to provide your SSN unless YOU are transferring money out of SL. And you don't need to even accept the Tilia TOS unless you have USDs in your account on or after 1 August. 

Avoid those two conditions and this doesn't impact on you at all.

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Posted (edited)

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/internet-telecoms/data-protection-online-privacy/index_en.htm

 

Thank you for 10 years of fun. But though you (linden) say your new terms of service is gdpr compliance, it's not. You shared a link to where it should say you're gdpr proof but that link holds not one word about gdpr: (https://www.tilia-inc.com/legal/privacy/) or Europe (or any other continent).

Peace out. :)

Edit: the right page with privacy police for people outside the USA: https://www.lindenlab.com/privacy

Europe law: https://gyazo.com/695ae216988f612f495dd80257c071ac


Linden Policy: https://gyazo.com/4e789381bb168cbb0b6bc76f51dac182

Please people READ Between the lines ... 

GDPR: https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/internet-telecoms/data-protection-online-privacy/index_en.htm

Edited by Bold Burner
lacking information
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 Linden lab forgot is big game now because us, after become so big second life game, is what we get as thanks.

Not even PayPal request this all documents, is absurd, then second life will no existing without us, I closed my business in sl and there are many which left sl, is simple, when buy premium acc, they no ask who you are, maybe someone steal my credit card and spend my money in this game, but no matters for LL, important is they take money, when you try cash out, dang ,need documents for proof who you are, well I am the same person which I paid you the premium account without be verified.

And finally who is Linden lab?, they request documents and address lol and my bed number, but they give to us any documents for see who they are?, nah, i am fine without this fake game, they even was try take rights on our creations so i think i see what kind of company is that.

 

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I forgot mentioned, linden lab is normal offer protection for our creations, well catwa heads and Maitreya body why is free full perm in open sim? from where the tiefs steal the creations?, from second life no?, so is correct now the creators open a case with LL cause they never uploaded the creations anywhere just in second life and now is free everywhere, what good protection have creators in second life. for this second life will dying.

Sorry my english.

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On 7/21/2019 at 7:35 PM, Love Zhaoying said:

I assume that those of us without USD balances will never be asked to agree to the Tilia TOS, so this entire exercise is a waste of time for us!

This appears to be correct, since it's now a week after Tilia launched, I have logged in every day since then and have not been asked to agree to Tilia's TOS.

 

9 hours ago, Yathiny said:

 And finally who is Linden lab?, they request documents and address lol and my bed number, but they give to us any documents for see who they are?, nah, i am fine without this fake game, they even was try take rights on our creations so i think i see what kind of company is that.

 

Linden Lab is not a fake company. They are well known, established 20 years ago and their RL contact info, including postal address, main telephone number and fax number (good grief people still use faxes???) are published.

https://www.lindenlab.com/contact

But sure if you want to quit, go ahead. 

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2 hours ago, Matty Luminos said:

But sure if you want to quit, go ahead

Dibs on their stuff!

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I tried to cash in on a few lindens for  US$  and got this message... grrrrr:

 

[Second Life] Information Request

 
 
Inbox
x
 
 
 
profile_mask2.png

Second Life Support <secondlife-support@lindenlab.com>

12:57 PM (2 hours ago)
 
 
cleardot.gif
cleardot.gif
to 068a4b48-47f9-4805-8cc9-2c44132bee15, me
cleardot.gif
 
 
Greetings Urban Harvy,
 
We received and reviewed the information you recently provided but were unable to match your personal information to any records because either the information was incorrectly, or there is no file match. To make sure that your information is correct, please supply the following request(s):
 
  1. A clear front and back copy of your government-issued photo ID. Please be sure that the image is not blurry, is free of glares, and that all writing is clearly legible. The ID must not be expired and must be valid for the next (60) days.
  2. Please submit your Social Security card.
 
We thank you for your patience.
 
Kind Regards,
 
Compliance Department

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I'm NOT applying for a PASSPORT  just  want a few $$ I earned... dah..

the old saying "don't fix it if it sin't broke"  why go a break it  L's  huh.. huh  ;)

 

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2 hours ago, Urban Harvy said:

I tried to cash in on a few lindens for  US$  and got this message... grrrrr:

 

[Second Life] Information Request

 
 
Inbox
x
 
 
 
profile_mask2.png

Second Life Support <secondlife-support@lindenlab.com>

12:57 PM (2 hours ago)
 
 
cleardot.gif
cleardot.gif
to 068a4b48-47f9-4805-8cc9-2c44132bee15, me
cleardot.gif
 
 
Greetings Urban Harvy,
 
We received and reviewed the information you recently provided but were unable to match your personal information to any records because either the information was incorrectly, or there is no file match. To make sure that your information is correct, please supply the following request(s):
 
  1. A clear front and back copy of your government-issued photo ID. Please be sure that the image is not blurry, is free of glares, and that all writing is clearly legible. The ID must not be expired and must be valid for the next (60) days.
  2. Please submit your Social Security card.
 
We thank you for your patience.
 
Kind Regards,
 
Compliance Department

"the information was incorrectly" WHAT? Incorrectly what? Drop shipped? Punted? What?

"Please submit your Social Security card"? WTF?

Someone at LL does not know how to word things to be clear and concise. You NEVER SEND YOUR SS card to anyone. 

PROOFREADING IS YOUR FRIEND. So is proofreading 3 times, not just one or twice and do it backwards! Be thorough. Enough of the half baked, FFS.

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Posted (edited)

From my understanding of contract law I am bound by the original TOS conditions I agreed to in 2007 and that didn't require the sort of imposing additional  information LL wants now for a process credit payment.  I hope one of the bigger SL businesses takes LL to court over this  as they are trapping everyone's money and holding it to ransom for the sort of personal ID data that can be compromised and used for identity theft and fraudulent financial transactions needlessly.  The original TOS is what I agreed to and I'm not giving them my birthday, home address, photo, phone number and documents for what they are proposing.  Maybe they can keep their game and I will do something else with my time and join everyone else on the way out..


 

 

Edited by chardonay Babii
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Posted (edited)

good lord... not again please...


just a little suggestion... read the sticky thread
 

Edited by Alwin Alcott

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2 hours ago, chardonay Babii said:

From my understanding of contract law I am bound by the original TOS conditions I agreed to in 2007 and that didn't require the sort of imposing additional  information LL wants now for a process credit payment.  I hope one of the bigger SL businesses takes LL to court over this  as they are trapping everyone's money and holding it to ransom for the sort of personal ID data that can be compromised and used for identity theft and fraudulent financial transactions needlessly.  The original TOS is what I agreed to and I'm not giving them my birthday, home address, photo, phone number and documents for what they are proposing.  Maybe they can keep their game and I will do something else with my time and join everyone else on the way out..

Stop it with the knee-jerk reactions. Act rational and read.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Stop it with the knee-jerk reactions. Act rational and read.

Think about it, multinational companies worth billions and governments struggle to stop hackers stealing info and selling it on the dark web.   Do you want to take that risk and trust this company can protect all your sensitive RL  info to collect a few Lindens from a content creating business? I wouldn’t do it for a thousand bucks, I’d leave it in there.  FYI I read the terms and privacy policy. That’s the contract terms I would have to agree to but won’t do.  It’s not a knee jerk reaction it’s experience.  Once bitten twice shy. The Tilia team say they have good intentions but sorry guys for me the risk outweighs the potential benefit.  

Edited by chardonay Babii
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2 hours ago, chardonay Babii said:

Think about it, multinational companies worth billions and governments struggle to stop hackers stealing info and selling it on the dark web.   Do you want to take that risk and trust this company can protect all your sensitive RL  info to collect a few Lindens from a content creating business? I wouldn’t do it for a thousand bucks, I’d leave it in there.  FYI I read the terms and privacy policy. That’s the contract terms I would have to agree to but won’t do.  It’s not a knee jerk reaction it’s experience.  Once bitten twice shy. The Tilia team say they have good intentions but sorry guys for me the risk outweighs the potential benefit.  

Which part of this isnt the labs requiring this information, its the law requiring they collect it and they have no choice whether or not to do it. Good luck taking them to court to make them act illegally

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2 hours ago, chardonay Babii said:

Do you want to take that risk and trust this company can protect all your sensitive RL  info to collect a few Lindens from a content creating business?

There are at least two possible ways to interpret the word "trust" here.

If by that word you mean, do I trust LL not to do something unethical or nefarious with that information, then I think the answer is yes: I do trust them. I can think of no case ever where LL was caught data mining, selling information, or using RL info in some fashion that violates the spirit of the nondisclosure clauses in the TOS and CS. I "trust" LL, in this sense, a lot more than I "trust" Google, Apple, Amazon, or Facebook (not to mention just about any company behind phone apps that you could name).

If by "trust," however, you mean, do I trust that they are savvy and careful enough to keep that information safe from leaks and hackers . . . well, this is a more legitimate concern. I don't actually have an answer for that, because I don't have the technical chops (nor I think do we have enough information) to judge how exposed or vulnerable it is likely to be.

On the whole though, I doubt that LL's databases are any less secure than most of the undoubtedly huge number of digital repositories that are already storing this information.

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On 7/21/2019 at 7:13 AM, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Well, however well LL manages to inform most residents about the coming changes -- and the logical way to do it might actually be at log-in sometime very soon -- there are still going to be literally thousands of residents who log-in for the first time after 1 August, and are essentially placed in the position of having to agree to Tilia TOS if they ever want to access SL again, because they have a USD balance, and can't remove it without using Tilia.

I hope they're planning to provide their customer service agents with danger pay.

Even if a little late to the party, gonna share my story.

This (above) is exactly what happened to me today. I am one of those people who run profitable businesses in SL and thus frequently used to cash out big numbers. But due to RL I was absent for some weeks until now. Came back today to cash out a good amount from my bank avatar again. Only to find out AFTER converting my money to USD, that after accepting ridiculous ToS, I now also have to basically "strip naked" with ID photos, RL selfie photo of myself, address, phone number, what not, only to be able to cash out my money.

As a European, needless to say I noped out faster than you can write "nope". We worked our asses off for decades to achieve very high data protection law standards and I ain't going to screw on all that, shoving all my sensitive information into some random, small, U.S. based company with ToS so ridiculous, that it's a matter of time until ***** hits the fan.

At least, after a vicious and expensive call with the LL hotline, they expained to me how I could put by USD tilia balance back into L$, so it wouldn't be entirely useless and even make me pay those inactivity fees in a few months.

 

It's sad to say, but after talking with my friend / business partner, we decided that we are now suspending our businesses within SL for as long as this tilia crap stays the way it is, for cashing out. So I guess after more than 12 years in SL, the day has come where it's time to look for other worlds to do business in. LL isn't reliable anymore, they've showed that enough over the last months. Congrats, Linden Lab!

e1c4f2-1565362079.png

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You ought to compare the "ridiculous" Tilia ToS with the Second Life ToS you signed when you arrived.  They're pretty much identical.

Also, one of the reasons LL split off Tilia as a separate entity was so they could market its services to others.  They've implemented some state of the art protections for personal information that they think are worth something.  See this blog post: https://community.secondlife.com/blogs/entry/2590-information-about-privacy-and-security-in-tilia/

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