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1 hour ago, onyx Kelberry said:

I wasn't saying there would be additional fee's I was asking if there would be. LL sprung the last one on us and Tilia will need administrators, logically at some point I suspect there will be fee's attached to that as well. I did not spread such a rumor and I didn't hear of it either, it was a question I asked myself. To me it only seemed like a logical question.

Just to note -- TILIA IS NOT NEW.

 

LL has owned Tilia since 2015  and Inara has a post talking about that. What IS NEW is accepting Tilia's TOS and Privacy Policy (US only) -- which for some reason most likely legal those using Tilia will need to do). This seems very much a CYA legal move.   

 

Here is the 2015 article. You can find Inara's other articles on Tilia by using "Tilia" in the search box.  Sansar has also been using Tilia and I was never asked to accept a Tilia TOS. That may be in affect now. I am no longer there. OR it may come into affect on August 1 (one of the reasons I am no longer there :D). 

 

https://modemworld.me/2015/11/04/linden-lab-and-tilia-inc-speculations-on-the-labs-new-subsidiary/

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Chic -- who has exhibited at LEA, amongst other things -- probably has the best insights into the problems and issues surrounding LEA. There certainly was a lot of criticism leveled against it in the past, esp. ca. 2015, for cronyism and such.

I'm with Qie: I'd like to have seen a replacement, or a new and better program announced alongside this quiet little cancellation.

 

I can ONLY say that I never voted for anyone because of friendship or talent -- or even experience; I voted on the idea and the presentation of the idea.  And yes, it did get very nasty back then. I am sure if you search NWN, Hamlet still has posts there with lots of comments from me :D.  Without mentioning any names I can say that LEA was at times dysfunctional and there may have been one person that always voted for a grant for someone he thought was outstanding (have no idea if they were friends).  BUT, I honestly and VERY SERIOUSLY doubt that the people complaining would have done better. Some of those people tried and failed and hence there was some animosity behind the attacks.   And folks sometimes forget the many VOLUNTEER hours that were given to the process. 

 

For as much as I could manage I stayed out of the fray and just did my MOSP thing.  My third stint was enjoyable as I had many more skills -- mesh and otherwise -- learned in the time I was away and I was able to build most of MOSP on my own. So I did my thing and enjoyed the process. The last few months though HAVE gone downhill, even before summer. In part I think that losing the AIRS regions impacted interest and people forgot all about LEA. That may have been LL's plan, maybe not; but either way I made my exit plans a couple of months ago and will be fine with LEA6 going back into the ether on August 31.  

 

I doubt that the cost of keeping seven mostly empty sims on the servers was the reason for their soon to be demise. The Lindens truly had nothing to do with the running of LEA; there was never one at a meeting AFAIK. So no work for them and plenty of kudos over the years. Some really great work was shown there. Some of the artists exited in 2013, some are showing on other  sims now.  Hopefully art will continue in SL but I am pretty sure it will never be at its peak as it was in the first few years of LEA. 

 

Let's bring this back to Tilia again --- and look at things logically if FROM THE OUTSIDE.  Again, no little voices speaking to me from quiet IM corners, no inside intel (now and then when I do have that I just keep quiet as I am a big believer in NDAs, real or implied).

 

1.  There was a big influx of dollars in to the LL coffers with the "$72 yearly pay ahead" deal. So "if" money was needed right now, hopefully that move achieved it.  But all those premium members who reupped to save some cash will NOT be paying on their regular membership anniversary date --- hence a big "sink" time on our imaginary graph. 

 

2.  A year after August 1, 2019 Linden Lab will be able to collect up to $3.00 US per month from any "inactive" USD account on the Second Life books (and if Sansar is still around there might be a tiny bit of money from it, but doubtful there). Since SL is over sixteen now, there are a lot of accounts just sitting there with money in them (this at least was the impression I got from Grumpity  - WATCH THE VIDEO AND MAKE UP YOUR OWN MIND).  That could be up to $36.00 per year per abandoned account; that's HALF of a premium membership fee that was in effect for sixteen years.  THAT can make up the shortfall. 

It is important to note that some citizens were forced to give up their accounts rather than accept the 2013 TOS. Those folks made real life earnings in SL and they left those behind rather than break RL contracts. This information in part should be somewhere in these forum archives -- assuming those threads are still around. So it is certainly likely that there are some accounts with large abandoned balances. 

 

3. The "super duper premium" account should it arrive towards the end of the year could also make up some of the loss of premium membership payments -- this from folks who will be "going back to basic".  So REALLY, this Tilia fee seems to be NEEDED, and more importantly it seems likely that it will be PAID by folks who are no longer using SL anyway -- for one reason or another.  So in THAT since, I think the fee is a good thing. I never actually had any issue with the fee; only with the horrible TOS and ESPECIALLY with having EVERYONE  forced to accept a TOS -- even those who would never use it. Hopefully that problem is solved now. 

Edited by Chic Aeon
changed two words for "political correctness" so I don't get yelled at hopefully. All info was from EMAIL not within SL.
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4 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

Nice article. Not changing any of my personal plans :D.  

Soft is the real reason RedZone went permanently poofers. He put his job on the line for us that time. And for me, personally, after I told him about my stalker.

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The official Tilia FAQ in the Knowledge Base has been updated for posterity with information most of you here have already seen either in the forums or in the townhall.  We'll get translations up before August 1st as well. 

I see the Tilia Security Blog from Soft is already old news here :)

Have a great weekend!

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1 hour ago, Chic Aeon said:

2.  A year after August 1, 2019 Linden Lab will be able to collect up to $3.00 US per month from any "inactive" USD account on the Second Life books (and if Sansar is still around there might be a tiny bit of money from it, but doubtful there). Since SL is over sixteen now, there are a lot of accounts just sitting there with money in them (this at least was the impression I got from Grumpity  - WATCH THE VIDEO AND MAKE UP YOUR OWN MIND).  That could be up to $36.00 per year per abandoned account; that's HALF of a premium membership fee that was in effect for sixteen years.  THAT can make up the shortfall. 

It is important to note that some citizens were forced to give up their accounts rather than accept the 2013 TOS. Those folks made real life earnings in SL and they left those behind rather than break RL contracts. This information in part should be somewhere in these forum archives -- assuming those threads are still around. So it is certainly likely that there are some accounts with large abandoned balances. 

 

They won't collect a thin dime. What they will be doing is reducing a possible expense. I'm sure it has financial factors on their books, but think of it this way - if you cancel your Netflix subscription you don't gain the money you would have paid for it otherwise, you eliminate the expense.

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

They won't collect a thin dime. What they will be doing is reducing a possible expense. I'm sure it has financial factors on their books, but think of it this way - if you cancel your Netflix subscription you don't gain the money you would have paid for it otherwise, you eliminate the expense.

Edited: Ok, on second thought, I'm not sure what you're actually getting at here; that the US$ 3 that is the fee is a way of reducing their expenses?

Although I'm still not sure about the appropriateness of that analogy.

Edited by Scylla Rhiadra
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3 hours ago, onyx Kelberry said:

Its nice to have people helping others but those who ridicule while doing it just makes them look like bullies.

I'll take "bully." I can live with that.

Because you returned and actually engaged, though, it seems you really did have the question you asked. I'm still baffled how it ever occurred to anyone that LL was trying to sneak in a "double double" of fee increases, as if they thought they could get away with it if they just didn't talk about it. For all LL's mistakes in managing customer relations over the years, they're vastly exceeded by the level of user paranoia about this company. I know irrational hatred of the service provider is standard-issue in the video game industry, but this Tilia thing has seen SL users react like snowflakes... snowflakes trying to log-roll for other snowflakes... snowballing a whole avalanche of whack.

Apparently you were not in on the snowball-rolling, so I'm genuinely sorry I mistook your intent and finally snapped. If however you read through these threads, end-to-end, you may see where I'm coming from.

And the next poster who comes up with an even more improbable way LL could destroy their business by tricking the customer base: Expect the same impatience. I'll apologize later if warranted.

I'm really taking to this "bully" thing now. 😈

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2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I'm going to agree that this is not some sort of money grab, but your analogy is poor. I can't cash out money that I've paid Netflix; I can do so with my SL/Tilia account. The money in your "Tilia Wallet" is not necessarily for payment directly to LL.

I was describing what the "money" in your "Tilia Wallet" is to Linden Lab. It's a number that will either reduce their income from services they provide you or serve as a possible outlay if you decide to cash it out. If they "take" from it, what they "take" will never be directly useful for their real-world expenses.

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10 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

For all LL's mistakes in managing customer relations over the years, they're vastly exceeded by the level of user paranoia about this company. I know irrational hatred of the service provider is standard-issue in the video game industry, but this Tilia thing has seen SL users react like snowflakes... snowflakes trying to log-roll for other snowflakes... snowballing a whole avalanche of whack.

 

13 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

(Although, to be honest, I have a nagging hunch that the lack of a replacement was a decision subconsciously influenced by the sunk cost fallacy pumping ever more Sansar blood on the balance sheet.)

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

I'll take "bully." I can live with that.

Lowering the tone of discourse around here again, are you Qie?

Such a bad example for the rest of us.

 

 

(Also, you're paranoid. Apparently.)

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Fair. But you have to admit, the Sansar investment shows no indication of ever paying back all the money still being thrown down that gaping maw of expense. And that money is not available to support the arts in Second Life. And, if I were delusional enough to think Sansar was still worth continued investment, I'd be thinking I should spend it on, oh, comedy night in Drax's Sansar basement or whatever the hell they're wasting it on now. Wouldn't you?

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Is this in fact just about cashing out? I'm reading this like you only need to scan your ID and provide other sensitive information if you cash out lindens. Sorry if someone already said this.

"These changes apply to USD credit processing and do not have any impact on the routine purchasing of Linden Dollars. Only Second Life Residents who Process Credit of their USD balance to their payment method (e.g. PayPal)  are impacted by the ID verification requirements"

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10 minutes ago, rmarie Beedit said:

Is this in fact just about cashing out? I'm reading this like you only need to scan your ID and provide other sensitive information if you cash out lindens. Sorry if someone already said this.

"These changes apply to USD credit processing and do not have any impact on the routine purchasing of Linden Dollars. Only Second Life Residents who Process Credit of their USD balance to their payment method (e.g. PayPal)  are impacted by the ID verification requirements"

 

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5 minutes ago, rmarie Beedit said:

Is this in fact just about cashing out? I'm reading this like you only need to scan your ID and provide other sensitive information if you cash out lindens. Sorry if someone already said this.

"These changes apply to USD credit processing and do not have any impact on the routine purchasing of Linden Dollars. Only Second Life Residents who Process Credit of their USD balance to their payment method (e.g. PayPal)  are impacted by the ID verification requirements"

Tilia will impact upon residents in two possible (and somewhat overlapping) instances:

1) If you have a USD balance in your account as of, or after, 1 August, you will be required to agree to the Tilia TOS. You will NOT need to provide identification if that is ALL you are doing. However, your USD balance will be subject to an "inactivity fee" if you do not access it at least once every 12 months. Accessing it means simply looking at the balance; in addition, Premium members don't even need to do this, as their Tilia accounts are automatically always considered active. The amount of the fee is still indeterminate but it will be no more than US$3 (and never more than the actual balance of your account, so your credit card or PayPal account won't be billed).

2) In addition, if you transfer money OUT of SL/Tilia, into Skrill or PayPal, for instance, you will be required to provide ID, including (if you are a US citizen) your SSN.

Tilia has no impact whatsoever on residents who are doing neither of these two things. It has nothing at all to do with L$ balances, or the buying and using of L$.

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6 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Tilia will impact upon residents in two possible (and somewhat overlapping) instances:

1) If you have a USD balance in your account as of, or after, 1 August, you will be required to agree to the Tilia TOS. You will NOT need to provide identification if that is ALL you are doing. However, your USD balance will be subject to an "inactivity fee" if you do not access it at least once every 12 months. Accessing it means simply looking at the balance; in addition, Premium members don't even need to do this, as their Tilia accounts are automatically always considered active. The amount of the fee is still indeterminate but it will be no more than US$3 (and never more than the actual balance of your account, so your credit card or PayPal account won't be billed).

2) In addition, if you transfer money OUT of SL/Tilia, into Skrill or PayPal, for instance, you will be required to provide ID, including (if you are a US citizen) your SSN.

Tilia has no impact whatsoever on residents who are doing neither of these two things. It has nothing at all to do with L$ balances, or the buying and using of L$. 

Thank you. I did read the FAQ but needed to see this clearly stated. I think your post will help a lot of people.

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Just wanted to make a note on my comments about LEA and Tilia yesterday.  When I said that "I" know more about LEA than @Inara Pey, I was saying it with a smile and was speaking historically about my three years on the advisory committee.  I personally have had NO information whatsoever about WHY the LEA is closing. I have only talked to one of the people running LEA now (there may only be two left, I don't know)  in the last year and a half -- and that was only two one line IMs.  What I was referring to was the long history of LEA and the inner workings. 

 

So just clearing that up.  

 

The citizens will likely never know Linden Lab's outlook on LEA and why it was closed. So "conspiracy theorists" :D can keep thinking it is all connected to Tilia;  I just personally don't see it. 

 

Their platform. Their rules.  

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2 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

The citizens will likely never know Linden Lab's outlook on LEA and why it was closed. So "conspiracy theorists" :D can keep thinking it is all connected to Tilia;  I just personally don't see it. 

There is no connection. While I don't have any kind of inside info I do keep my eyes and ears peeled and remember what I've seen and read. It has more to do with some mismanagement (not any one particular person) and ... well... not everyone always gets along with everyone else. I've noticed the general public's interest has waned as well. So really, it's a combination of things, not just one thing that can be pointed at and blamed.

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Posted (edited)

Processing Credit out to Paypal --- OR NOT. IMPORTANT IF YOU HAVE ALTS WITH USD balances. 

Well THIS WAS SCARY.  

 

I have two alts with small USD balances that need to go away (my choice) so that they will not have to OK the Tilia TOS.  I was planning on waiting until the end of the month but got a "vibe" that it would be good to do it now. So I tried ^^.

 

The Process Credit Button was grayed out.  with a "We may need more info" link. 

 

Credit card was listed in the account. This avatar had NEVER processed credit to Paypal.  I added my Paypal account thinking that was the logical missing piece. Still couldn't process credit but using the  "more info needed" link sent me to this page.  

 

Edit: I guessed that she couldn't process credit because she hadn't BOUGHT Lindens that I can remember (not sure but maybe one time when they told us only people who had purchased lindens would get to keep their accounts - that didn't happen).    She WAS however linked to the main account and had Payment Info Used in her profile.

 

Anyway  ----- 

Here is what I saw   [graphic saying "Don't have an SSN? Use this form.   Have questions? Read the Tilia FAQ.]

 

 

The page never loaded (many tries and many tries to the "this" link also) but it appears to be wanting the SSN  in order to process credit.

Well THAT wasn't going to happen.   So now instead of a bit over a dollar in USD I  had $5.44.   WRONG direction.  I did some research and found that I could buy lindens with my USD balance (something NEVER done by any avatar of mine).  So I took a chance and that worked.  That account now has a $0 USD balance and can (in theory) log in after August 1 without signing the Tilia TOS.  

Thought I would pass along this info as I haven't seen it covered -- AND I AM WONDERING about the new SSN addition in the check out process. 

 

I just transferred money to Paypal on the account that I have always used and had no issue --- SO if you have an alt with a USD balance you want to get rid of, it looks like buying some lindens is the way to go!   

 

This has been a community service announcement (and I feel about ten years older right now from the stress). 

 

 

Edited by Chic Aeon
adding info
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LEA closing.  Makes tribute: Terraforms a large white expanse of white water, rezzes a grand piano, sets some birds in flight, writes poem 'pain pain pain'

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Cam Mode said:

LEA closing.  Makes tribute: Terraforms a large white expanse of white water, rezzes a grand piano, sets some birds in flight, writes poem 'pain pain pain'

A snow white grande, gilt trimmed, in a field of pristine snow, no trees, no shrubs, any grass is buried under the snow. Draped across the grande is a bolt of blood red satin against a starry midnight sky and one large iridescent raven perched on the music desk, looking out at love.

There is no bench.

Edited by Selene Gregoire
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6 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

I did some research and found that I could buy lindens with my USD balance (something NEVER done by any avatar of mine).  So I took a chance and that worked.  That account now has a $0 USD balance...

So... you'd been trying to process credit to clear a balance of about one USD? (!)

I've never processed credit and haven't kept track of what fees the Lab has set, but I'd have expected it to cost more than that just to process the order into PayPal.

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