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1 minute ago, Alwin Alcott said:

perhaps better talk about the subject instead of , she, her, she , her ..
it really start making you all look very bad.

 

( yes i know i'm horribible)

Agreed .. thus why I deleted my post just prior to you posting this. :) 

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40 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

I stand corrected. I haven't seen any bias in your posts. You seem to be offering information and not spinning it the way I've seen others do. So, I agree with you.

But .... I think it is possible to want to post information because you want people to make well-informed decisions ... is still influencing. :)

Absolutely.

Similarly, I think you can be "biased" -- i.e., have an opinion -- and still be primarily motivated by a disinterested desire to ensure that people are well informed. I think that's your case. And I applaud you for it, as well as for being upfront about your bias and the context of your views.

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5 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

thus ...

my remark wasn't to be the sweetest guy in group, you all know i'm not, but this subject is so broad and effects more than people can oversee now. If you'r pro or contra doesn't really matter. But for some it's the last step to go over the edge, reasonable, factuable or subjective, i can understand it.
In the not so long past you only needed to open your mailbox .. shortly after they wanted a spyglass in your door with the look inside, next it had to be a window, and now for second time you really have to start opening your door and show your face and proof it's really you .. it's just a bit much for many.

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3 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

i can understand it

So can I. And everyone who is going to be impacted by this needs to decide for themselves whether they think it worth it to expose their personal information (SSN or whatever) if they want to cash out. Ultimately, that is going to be a subjective decision, based upon how each of us weighs the risks, or the importance of cashing out.

In order to make that determination, they need to be well-informed and fully comprehending of what is actually involved. That part is about making the pertinent facts available, and ensuring that they are understood.

But I also think that it can be useful to hear people's personal reasoning. What Chic and Blush have to say about this, from their own perspectives, is valuable, and can provide insight and guidance.

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3 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Thank you thank you thank you.

It's not hard to believe that LL has not thought through all of the ramifications of this change -- such as the types of acceptable ID for non-US residents -- but the notion that they are so stupid as to explicitly say that this is GDPR-compliant, and be wrong, is pure paranoia. This is not, after all, the first time LL has had to deal with the GDPR.

LL could have gotten it wrong and it wouldn't have been the first time. Not with just GDPR. They've screwed up their own (SL) ToS so badly a time or two that they've had to consult with their attorneys and re-write portions of the ToS which we, of course, have to accept all over again... and again... and again. I've never seen any company, game or otherwise, change their ToS as often as LL does and do it in such a way that it causes a huge uproar. They never do learn. After 16 years, they never will.

Edited by Selene Gregoire
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3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

What xx and xxx have to say about this, from their own perspectives, is valuable, and can provide insight and guidance.

yes, but it wasn't anymore about whát they say but whó said it, and thats not the purpose i think.

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3 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

their ToS

The new TOS is different from the previous one, and I think this new TOS is what Chic was objecting to (the parts of the new TOS that don't relate to transferring money out of SL).

There really needs to be a discussion about it before we sign on Aug 1st.

Edited by Luna Bliss
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Just now, Selene Gregoire said:

LL could have gotten it wrong and it wouldn't have been the first time. Not with just GDPR. They've screwed up their own (SL) ToS so badly a time or two that they've had to consult with their attorneys and re-write portions of the ToS which we, of course, have to accept all over again... and again... and again. I've never seen any company, game or otherwise, change their ToS as often as LL does and do it it such a way that it causes a huge uproar. They never do learn. After 16 years, they never will.

Well, I'm far from suggesting that they are always super-competent. They've screwed up the rollout of Tilia in a glorious fashion, I think. And yes, the ToS thing is often a mess.

But if they say it is GDPR compliant, I think it more than likely is . . . even if they haven't thought through all of the ramifications (which, apparently, they have not).

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Possibly, no one cares about what I'm going to write but...

I've never taken any money out of SL and I never will. I only exchange L$ to USD to have my tier paid. Now, wouldn't it be nice that I didn't have to do that? Currency exchange, that is. Why can't we pay tier with Linden Dollars?

Edited by MBeatrix
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1 minute ago, MBeatrix said:

Possibly, no one cares about what I'm going to write but...

if it helps.. i do :)

i'm sure there are reasons for not letting us pay in L$ .. but as LL also does things we don't like, i think they could do some more things to make our lives easier.... so LL please do that.

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14 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Well, I'm far from suggesting that they are always super-competent. They've screwed up the rollout of Tilia in a glorious fashion, I think. And yes, the ToS thing is often a mess.

But if they say it is GDPR compliant, I think it more than likely is . . . even if they haven't thought through all of the ramifications (which, apparently, they have not).

To the best of their knowledge it is but can they guarantee their knowledge is complete? I don't believe anyone can do that. Ever. 

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8 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

i'm sure there are reasons for not letting us pay in L$

The reason may well be the fee they charge us for exchanging $L to USD.

Really, I'm not trusting LL much these days, after their recent price and fees changes and the (poor) justification(s) for them. They didn't come out very well in the picture, in my opinion. It seems to be all tricks and more tricks...

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14 minutes ago, MBeatrix said:

Possibly, no one cares about what I'm going to write but...

I've never taken any money out of SL and I never will. I only exchange L$ to USD to have my tier paid. Now, wouldn't it be nice that I didn't have to do that? Currency exchange, that is. Why can't we pay tier with Linden Dollars?

I've been asking that question for over a decade. LL never gives an answer.

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26 minutes ago, MBeatrix said:

Why can't we pay tier with Linden Dollars?

Because L$ have ZERO value to LL, they only have value when sold to another resident.

LL have never accepted LL as a form of payment for anything. The fees associated with uploads, groups and so on are not income, they act as currency sinks and as a brake on user activity.

For example, if images were free to upload, some opportunistic programmer would write a SL file system extension that encoded regular data as images, and then use it to dump terabytes of stuff onto LL servers, probably pirated movies. (This is not a stretch, someone did this using gmail as the data store, if you used it, it didn't look like email, it looked like a folder where you just dump stuff. Totally transparent).

 

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42 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

But I also think that it can be useful to hear people's personal reasoning. What Chic and Blush have to say about this, from their own perspectives, is valuable, and can provide insight and guidance.

Please let me be clear. I have no issue whatsoever with people expressing their views, concerns, even objections. My problem is where information gets presented which is confusing or uses terminology incorrectly which leads to more confusion. 

44 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Ultimately, that is going to be a subjective decision, based upon how each of us weighs the risks, or the importance of cashing out.

This is an example of miscommunication. The cashing out of lindens to USD does not require information being exchanged. It's only when you process a credit that your information is required. I know what you mean Scylla, but those who are not familiar with the process can be confused by this misuse of the terms.  I've seen it over and over where people are asking why is their information needed just to cash out to pay their annual premium or tier. It's not needed at all, but because the terms are being used interchangeably it's causing confusion. 

 

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1 hour ago, CoffeeDujour said:

Because L$ have ZERO value to LL, they only have value when sold to another resident.

Not entirely true. Yes, L$ have no value for them within its own circuit, but LL makes money selling them and again when L$ are converted to USD. And taking some out of Marketplace sales.

No matter how much competent a pixel farmer you are, you'll never grow L$ in your fields. L$ originate from one source and one source only. So they actually do have value to LL in several different ways, and I estimate that the overall value is considerable.

Edited by MBeatrix
typo correction
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1 hour ago, Blush Bravin said:

Please let me be clear. I have no issue whatsoever with people expressing their views, concerns, even objections. My problem is where information gets presented which is confusing or uses terminology incorrectly which leads to more confusion. 

This is an example of miscommunication. The cashing out of lindens to USD does not require information being exchanged. It's only when you process a credit that your information is required. I know what you mean Scylla, but those who are not familiar with the process can be confused by this misuse of the terms.  I've seen it over and over where people are asking why is their information needed just to cash out to pay their annual premium or tier. It's not needed at all, but because the terms are being used interchangeably it's causing confusion. 

I hope you are right about that. I have nothing to object to a proper and valid identification. Actually, I'm for it because among other things it's a good way to fight money laundering.
My concern is just the "inactivity fee". Does that apply to all those who convert L$ to USD or only to the ones who actually process credit to take money out? You see, at some point I might drop the premium membership and thus no longer have the need to exchange L$, so the Tilia account would be indefinitely inactive. Would Tilia take some of my money, then?

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Just now, MBeatrix said:

I hope you are right about that. I have nothing to object to a proper and valid identification. Actually, I'm for it because among other things it's a good way to fight money laundering.
My concern is just the "inactivity fee". Does that apply to all those who convert L$ to USD or only to the ones who actually process credit to take money out? You see, at some point I might drop the premium membership and thus no longer have the need to exchange L$, so the Tilia account would be indefinitely inactive. Would Tilia take some of my money, then?

I've asked about this in the official post thread:

It hasn't been answered yet. As long as you just check the balance at least annually the fee won't be charged. I personally don't want to have to do that and would rather there be a way to transfer those funds to my account where I do process credits. Barring that then they might as well take the balance all at once.

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If you carry a USD balance but not cashing out, you will be subjected to Tillia's account maintenance fees from my understanding. The ID bit , as was said is only for processing a cash out of any money. The only time you will not be subjected to Tillia's fees is just buying Lindens to spend, but if anything goes to a USD balance-again even if you don't cash out- its going to be subjected to fees.

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30 minutes ago, MBeatrix said:

My concern is just the "inactivity fee". Does that apply to all those who convert L$ to USD or only to the ones who actually process credit to take money out? You see, at some point I might drop the premium membership and thus no longer have the need to exchange L$, so the Tilia account would be indefinitely inactive. Would Tilia take some of my money, then?

If you leave any USD unattended for over 12 months, then yes. Just make sure there isn't any USD left before going inactive.

On 7/2/2019 at 8:57 PM, Linden Lab said:

Will you make an additional charge to my credit card on file if there is inactivity on my Tilia account?
The inactivity fee is only applicable if you have an inactive USD balance and it will only be taken from that balance. It will never result in a new credit card charge.

 

On 7/2/2019 at 8:57 PM, Linden Lab said:

What if I have “zero” USD balance - will I still get an inactivity fee that causes me to owe money if there is nothing in my account?
No.  The inactivity fee will not take your balance below zero. 

 

On 7/2/2019 at 8:57 PM, Linden Lab said:

I do have a cash balance, but I am not an SL content creator. I upload money, which goes towards my Premium payments. So does that mean it will affect me too? 
This should not affect you if you are only using your money for Premium payments. For those who are carrying a USD balance to pay Premium, you would need to be active on that account at least once in12 months to avoid the inactivity fee. Thus, paying your annual Premium qualifies as activity.

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This whole topic frustrates me beyond measure. There is so much less than meets the eye, all the threads full of repetitive tangled misunderstandings and alarmist confusion -- it's the most perfect example of Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt that I've ever seen.

Despite all that, an interesting topic emerges: Why can't we pay tier* with L$s?

I suspect the real reason is that it would make L$ transactions subject to more of the same regulatory oversight as US$s; the whole fiction of the L$ being a game token of no intrinsic value wasn't good enough to get past the online gambling laws, but apparently it's good enough to fend off the most invasive of FinCEN's tracking and reporting requirements, at least so far.

From a strictly financial perspective, the Lab would be just fine taking L$s in place of US$s as long as there's sustained demand for L$s -- and permitting L$ denominated payments -- a huge L$ sink -- would vastly increase that demand. We all know the LindeX maintains a tightly controlled exchange rate and does that by frequent sales of very large lots of freshly-minted L$s, mixed in with the larger volume of resident-to-resident transactions. Those Lab sales are made for good ol' greenbacks, and the more new L$s needed, the more US$s they rake in. 

It's true that with US$-denominated tier, the LindeX trading fees also benefit LL, but most folks who want to pay L$s for tier wouldn't be bothered much by paying a comparable transaction fee for using the game currency for those payments. (Although as we see from these Tilia threads, there's nothing trivial enough to be received by SL residents with equanimity.) 

Assuming the Lab wants to maintain the fiction that the L$ exchange rate is a free market phenomenon, they could use the spot market rate to calculate the instantaneous L$ price of tier. This would be much (much) more profitable for the Lab than merely pocketing the LindeX transaction fees on limit-ordered US$ buys, although I don't know how many L$s are sold for the spot price anyway (one would hope very few) so the Lab would be currently getting even more from those sellers.

_________
* where "tier" in this case means monthly payment to LL for Mainland ownership or, I imagine, for Estate region fees. I was informed this week that "tier" is also a common term for Estate rent payments -- which still seems completely wrong to me -- but this "tier" must be the other stuff because Estate rents have been paid in L$s since forever.

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27 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

apparently it's good enough to fend off the most invasive of FinCEN's tracking and reporting requirements, at least so far.

Key words being "so far". They can't keep ducking and covering forever. Sooner or later it will catch up.

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51 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

where "tier" in this case means monthly payment to LL for Mainland ownership or, I imagine, for Estate region fees. I was informed this week that "tier" is also a common term for Estate rent payments -- which still seems completely wrong to me -- but this "tier" must be the other stuff because Estate rents have been paid in L$s since forever.

Estates base their rates on the amount of land you are getting/using the same as LL does for mainland. The only difference is you can pay your estate rent in Ls, where you can't pay LL your rent in Ls. Estate owners then have to convert those Ls paid in by renters to USD to pay the tier to LL. Basically, estate owners do the grunt paper work for the renters, where premium mainland has to do it for themselves. Thus the term "middleman".

The amount of land you get is the tier, not the amount of Ls or USD that you pay for the land. The land is the tier, the tier is the land, based on size. 

Quote

The Land Use Fee (also known as a Tier Fee) is a monthly charge in addition to membership fees (i.e., US$ 9.50/month Premium Membership). Land use fees are billed based on the peak amount of land held during your previous 30 day billing cycle.

image.png.2243fc1605eb2b4b3264bbaacb0fa26e.png

Note that tier or land use fees are based on parcel size. Estate owners use the same parcel size determined tiers that LL uses.

ETA: https://secondlife.com/land/pricing.php

Edited by Selene Gregoire
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