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1 minute ago, Chic Aeon said:

So that means we have been USING Tilia without our knowledge or our OK?    And without seeing the TOS for Tilia?  Or their privacy policy? 

 I am surprised you seem to think this is an  OK thing. 

 

There are plenty of people and accounts that never buy or sell Lindens. There is a whole HUGE "free economy" out there who don't fit into this box. 

Now that I think about it, I seem to recall receiving an email about Tilia UK a year or so ago and having to agree to something-or-other, if I'm not mistaken?

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2 minutes ago, AnyaJurelle said:

Now that I think about it, I seem to recall receiving an email about Tilia UK a year or so ago and having to agree to something-or-other, if I'm not mistaken?

Are you in the UK?  I haven't talked to anyone in the US that remembers any agreement.  If there was a change that we had to click through (I can't remember one in AGES) does someone have a date?    

Thanks. 

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1 minute ago, Chic Aeon said:

Are you in the UK?  I haven't talked to anyone in the US that remembers any agreement.  If there was a change that we had to click through (I can't remember one in AGES) does someone have a date?    

Thanks. 

No, I'm in Hell (Down Under) haha

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Posted (edited)

THE TL;DR VERSION OF ALL OF THE ABOVE

The purpose of this thread is to provide a quick summary for newcomers of the information regarding Tilia that we currently have available to us.

I've edited and updated it a bit to reflect a few new things that LL has clarified since I originally posted it. It has been effectively superseded by the longer and more detailed FAQ OP on the Official Tilia Q&A Forum Thread, posted by LL itself, but it is possible that some may still want a shorter version. Needless to say, reading this is not a substitute for getting the official word from LL itself. This is not intended to be comprehensive; rather, I've just attempted to capture the answers to some of the most frequently asked questions I've seen here.

 

OFFICIAL INFORMATION FROM LL

The Blog Post announcing this is couched in legalese, and not very useful, but you should probably read it anyway. It is at least short.

The FAQ is not as helpful as it could be, but does include some specific information about valid forms of ID, etc.

The Official Tilia Q&A Forum Thread, posted by LL itself, provides the most detailed and accessible account of what the new role for Tilia means.

There are additionally two comments by @Linden Lab in this thread on pp. 5 (here) and 7 (here), but the information contained in these has been incorporated into the main "Official" thread, above.

 

ESSENTIAL INFORMATION: THE BULLETS.

Here are the answers we've been provided by LL thus far, in my own words. Needless to say, check out the above yourself, and if I've got anything wrong here, I'll correct it.

  • Everyone will need to agree to the Tilia ToS to continue to use SL after 1 August.
     
  • ONLY those who are cashing out L$ to USD need do anything else. You do not need to provide additional information or ID to buy L$ or spend L$
     
  • Those who are cashing out (only) will need to provide what is, apparently, US government-mandated ID, including name, address, date of birth, and Social Security Number.
     
  • Those who are cashing out, but are not US citizens, will be asked to use a government-issued ID such as a passport or driver's licence, along with some form of verification for address.
     
  • There will be an "Inactivity Fee" applied ONLY to balances of USD in your Tilia accounts, if it is not accessed or used for a 12 month period. There is no information how much this will be yet, but it will apply only so long as there is money remaining in the account, and you have not accessed it.
     
  • The Inactivity Fee does NOT apply to your L$ balance. This can remain dormant without penalty.
     
  • "Activity" in this context can mean as little as logging in to check your balance or pay for Premium.
     
  • This will have NO impact on your Premium stipend.
     
  • A USD balance that you are using to pay for your Premium will NOT require additional ID. (But you will need to be aware of the Inactivity Fee.)
     
  • The processing fee for transactions charged by Tilia is NOT in addition to the one currently charged by LL. One will, I gather, essentially replace the other seamlessly.
  • LL is working to make the verification process available before the 1 August deadline, in order to avoid disruptions in your ability to process credit. They will be announcing the process for this in the future.

  • The Privacy Policy for Tilia is fully compliant with the GDPR (for European residents).
     
  • Full information about Tilia's privacy policies is available here.
     
  • According to LL's second post here, "In general, most Residents will not need to resubmit the information if it has been previously provided."
     
  • The Tilia account will be managed through the existing Secondlife.com dashboard, and thus will be accessible using the same password and log-in process that you use to access this for everything else.

 

LEGITIMATE QUESTIONS:

  • Why (as per Chic's posts above) is it necessary for everyone to agree to the Tilia ToS, and have an account, if only a small minority will actually be using it (to cash out). My suspicion is that this is about efficiencies.
     
  • What are the workarounds for non-US residents who may not have a passport or driver's licence? It would be good for LL to provide more guidance on what they will accept from non-US citizens.

 

Dear LL: I'd like my new houseboat to be at the end of a wharf, with a clear view of the open sea. Failing this, adjacent to a beach area. Thank you.

Edited by Scylla Rhiadra
Updated to reflect new information
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Read the thread. Tilia is a good thing, I'm all for it.

Tilia TOS: Not much different from every single other financial enterprise on the planet (PayPal, anyone?)

"Credit" - this word refers to company credit as a discount to paid-for company services. By asking to have that credit sent to your bank then certainly your real life legal information should be required (PayPal, anyone?) Because at the end of the year, your government expects Tilia to print up a report of all your transactions and send it to them so thy can TAX you. Do not be surprised, you voted your respective government into office.

As for the "Token" - seriously? LOL It's the *same* type token they used when Age Verification was a thing. Basically, it's a simple 0 or 1 sent to your account to toggle some setting under the hood to set your "status."

/me slathers lots-n-lots of butter on that Jumbo box of popcorn refill and slaps gobs sloppily into her face, entertained at the knee-jerk, shrill commentary from the many paranoid and ill-informed commentators.

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37 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

What, you don't want to read 14 pages of post-apocalyptic panic to find out what's going on? Yeeesh.

Um, hard to filter what’s real and what’s BS so..no thanks!

38 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Short answers:

1) There is a yet-to-be-determined Inactivity Fee for Tilia accounts that contain a cash balance, and have remained inactive for a year. This fee only affects USD balances, not Lindens, and it ends if the account is used or accessed, or if there is no USD amount remaining in it.

I missed that in the main Tilya (lulz) post or FAQ. Where was this info buried? Luckily I’m not impacted as I don’t ever carry a USD balance. My initial panic / question was at the thought it meant “inactive - not logging into SL”.

41 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

 2) It is mostly about cashing out -- everyone will have to agree to the Tilia ToS, but only those cashing out will need to provide additional ID, or be subject to the Inactivity Fee.

You're welcome.

Ugh, will we get emails with a link, be prompted to accept TOS on login (I would have to actually login), or ? Think I saw a link in the main LL post. 

 

Will even non-Premium alts have to login / accept new TOS? What a circus!

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3 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

/me slathers lots-n-lots of butter on that Jumbo box of popcorn refill and slaps gobs sloppily into her face, entertained at the knee-jerk, shrill commentary from the many paranoid and ill-informed commentators.

 

45475B78-D9C3-4C47-BE04-FFE6BC6A020F.jpeg

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1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Will even non-Premium alts have to login / accept new TOS? What a circus!

I doubt it, but I love this idea. If Tilia doesn't force this, can we come up with an excuse to make it happen anyway?

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1 hour ago, Chic Aeon said:

My question -- asked twice now with a fair amount of "heart  icons" given --  is WHY do the people that will NOT be using Tilia have to have an account made.  In my mind, only those USING Tilia to cash out need to have an account.

Actually Limit Buy would too, at least as I understand, as would selling Lindens to pay your SL fees...

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6 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Dear LL: I'd like my new houseboat to be at the end of a wharf, with a clear view of the open sea. Failing this, adjacent to a beach area. Thank you.

Dear Scylla: You don't get a houseboat until you figure out a way to make people actually READ what you just so kindly summarized for them. 

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1 minute ago, Sylvia Tamalyn said:

Dear Scylla: You don't get a houseboat until you figure out a way to make people actually READ what you just so kindly summarized for them. 

Wow that is an original concept!  Great idea

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14 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

THE TL;DR VERSION OF ALL OF THE ABOVE

Saved a link to your post.

I know why they called it “Tillia”, because “we’ll charge you fees ‘til ya broke”.

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12 hours ago, Linden Lab said:

Will EVERYONE who uses Second Life have to agree to the new Tilia TOS and Privacy Policy - or just those who use credit processing to cash out USD?

Beginning Aug. 1, all Second Life Residents will be asked to agree to the new Tilia terms of service and privacy policy upon logging in.

Found this answer, thanks Scylla! 

Hmm..I wonder if Tillia will make it easier for those people who are forced to use PayPal due to only having bank debit cards?

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3 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Found this answer, thanks Scylla!  

Yes, my sense is that this will be handled the way ToS updates are usually handled: you will only be compelled to agree when you sign in for the first time after the changes go into effect.

Of course, if you do have USD sitting dormant in a Tilia account, they will, I'm sure, start applying the Inactivity Fee after 12 months, regardless of whether or not you have agreed to the ToS.

5 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Hmm..I wonder if Tillia will make it easier for those people who are forced to use PayPal due to only having bank debit cards?

That would be nice, wouldn't it? Really, you'd think it would be to LL's benefit to make it as easy as possible to buy L$ and pay for tier and stuff. I am not sanguine about this however, as I'm sure improvements would be costly. LL may have already decided that it's not feasible or efficient to do so

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Chic Aeon said:

So that means we have been USING Tilia without our knowledge or our OK?    And without seeing the TOS for Tilia?  Or their privacy policy? 

 I am surprised you seem to think this is an  OK thing. 

Yes. and it's fine. It wasn't called "Tilia" or anything like that, it was just called "Second Life", and was covered by the general purpose Second Life ToS/policies.

Think of it this way: LL has just carved off a chunk of itself Second Life and slapped a sticker saying "Tilia" on the side. That's it. It's the same backend stuff that we've been using, but a few names and logos have changed to keep the beancounters and paperpushers happy.

Edited by AyelaNewLife
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4 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:
11 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Hmm..I wonder if Tillia will make it easier for those people who are forced to use PayPal due to only having bank debit cards?

That would be nice, wouldn't it? Really, you'd think it would be to LL's benefit to make it as easy as possible to buy L$ and pay for tier and stuff. I am not sanguine about this however, as I'm sure improvements would be costly. LL may have already decided that it's not feasible or efficient to do so

Oh darn, so all these changes only help LL!

 

597E0D67-DAB1-4580-B86D-6355A66640EF.jpeg

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Some morning research I am passing along.  Not all that I found out but the highlights. 

There is no mention of Tilia in the Second Life TOS. There IS however mention of Tilia in the Linden Lab PRIVACY notice as well as the  Liinden Lab TOS.  It tells the person reading to check the Tilia Privacy notice (not Tilia TOS) IF they are going to use the service. 

 

image.thumb.png.2fbc909b7e3ba733d31029a3f3e280cd.png

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3 minutes ago, AyelaNewLife said:

Yes. and it's fine. It wasn't called "Tilia" or anything like that, it was just called "Second Life", and was covered by the general purpose Second Life ToS/policies.

Indeed! Although, in fact, if you look at your dashboard and (I think) the LindeX, it does say "Powered by Tilia." Not sure when they added that, but I think it's been there for a few weeks anyway: I noticed it the last time I bought Lindens.

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It would be great if the lawyers on the thread would take a look at how hobby income needs to be reported in the U.S. now -- it changed recently and I'm wondering if this fact is partially the cause of all residents needing to report income now, no matter how small an amount.

I'm not surprised....so many now are working freelance, or working temp part-time jobs...and so the IRS would be losing out tax-wise.

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@Linden.@lindenlab.com

Will we still be able to use our USD balance to pay our land fees prior to cashing out?

With all these new extra fees you've given us, I may have to "offset the costs" by dropping a sim or two.

 

PS Stop bleeding SL residents to fund Sansar. Thx. 

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

It would be great if the lawyers on the thread would take a look at how hobby income needs to be reported in the U.S. now -- it changed recently and I'm wondering if this fact is partially the cause of all residents needing to report income now, no matter how small an amount.

I'm not surprised....so many now are working freelance, or working temp part-time jobs...and so the IRS would be losing out tax-wise.

It is notated as "Professional Hobby" on I.R.S. tax forms and you take that as a deduction.

3 minutes ago, Jovial Murasaki said:

@Linden.@lindenlab.com

Will we still be able to use our USD balance to pay our land fees prior to cashing out?

With all these new extra fees you've given us, I may have to "offset the costs" by dropping a sim or two.

 

PS Stop bleeding SL residents to fund Sansar. Thx. 

/me laughs. MOAR POPCORN, PLZ.

Edited by Alyona Su

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ALL YOU PEOPLE FORGET: Now your Credit Card bill will say TILIA and not Second Life, so it will be easier to hide the charge from your WIVES AND HUSBANDS!!!

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I've a question as I all I have is utter confusion at all of this.  Been slightly dyslexic isn't helping. 

If I choose not to have a Tilia account can I still pay my yearly premium fee? 

As I now only can afford to pay that once a year to do things in SL.  And this talk of penalties for not using an account for a year is not excatly making me very happy.  At this rate LL will loose me as a paying customer when my payment for premium account comes due next year.  And I'll have to go back to how a first started in SL.  WITH NO MONEY!  I don't live in the US, so all the 'little extra fees'  are HUGE fees for me.  I live in a 3rd world country!  So the exchange rate in the past has fluxuated between 15 - 20 Times for 1 USD!  The whole point of me going premium was to cut down on the costs of exchange rate fees, SL fees and bank fees, so I could afford to giving LL some of my money.  I'm not a millionaire!

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Just now, workfromhome said:

I've a question as I all I have is utter confusion at all of this.  Been slightly dyslexic isn't helping. 

If I choose not to have a Tilia account can I still pay my yearly premium fee? 

As I now only can afford to pay that once a year to do things in SL.  And this talk of penalties for not using an account for a year is not excatly making me very happy.  At this rate LL will loose me as a paying customer when my payment for premium account comes due next year.  And I'll have to go back to how a first started in SL.  WITH NO MONEY!  I don't live in the US, so all the 'little extra fees'  are HUGE fees for me.  I live in a 3rd world country!  So the exchange rate in the past has fluxuated between 15 - 20 Times for 1 USD!  The whole point of me going premium was to cut down on the costs of exchange rate fees, SL fees and bank fees, so I could afford to giving LL some of my money.  I'm not a millionaire!

No... but there's very little reason to refuse.

First off, if all you are doing is buying Lindens and paying for premium/tier, then you don't need the extra ID.

Secondly, the inactivity fees are only taken from the existing USD balance on your SL/Tilia account, and they will never take money from your bank account or anything like that. Remember, the only way to have a USD balance on your account is if you sell Lindens.

For 99.9% of users, nothing will change. It's only those that make a real life income from SL who are affected. Don't worry :)

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