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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Linden Lab said:

I am not a US citizen, I do not drive & have no passport! We also do not have an official photo ID in the UK so how on earth will I qualify?

 

For non-U.S. citizens without a driver’s license or passport, we will need an equivalent government-issued ID to verify your identity for credit processing. If this is an issue, please contact our customer support team or continue to check our FAQ for additional guidance after Aug. 1.  

A rather inadequate lazy response - Some examples of said "government-issued IDs" could and should be given to help those outwith the USA who have genuine concerns. So far I seeing only faceless corporate and legalese speak.

Also several years ago, those of us who do make occasional cash outs were were required to submit TAX status forms to LL. Is that on the cards again at some later date?

^L^

Edited by Lasher Oh
because I was confused with the quoting text facility - don't post very often
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If you read the fine print you'll see UK residents already deal with tilia (UK branch), and if anyone is worried, just use the support firm and make a GDPR request to the lab, see what info they do have on you already..........

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Posted (edited)

Deleted content because I faffed my original post above but couldn't delete this one because we're not allowed to delete our own pieces

Edited by Lasher Oh
see above

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7 hours ago, Beth Macbain said:

 I like how everyone has just ignored this.

It's much easier to just freak out than wait for answers, isn't it?

The "FAQ" was written before questions were even asked and so adressed almost nothing asked - I like how you ignored that before posting a smart answer...

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Are you guys done with your panicking and ready to actually read some information?
 
Tilia is not some new company they just pulled out of their ass. Its been the subsidiary thats been handling your transactions if you're not US citizen for a few years now. Notice the date on the article ;)
 
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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Linden Lab said:

 

We are still reviewing and addressing some of the other questions that have been posted in this thread. However, here is some additional information on some of the questions we have seen so far. We continue to work on following up on questions that have yet to be addressed and will continue to update and monitor this forum thread over the next few days.

Is this an extra fee on top of the recently changed credit processing fee?

No. The credit processing fees remain unchanged for you as a Resident. You will not be charged anything extra for a credit processing fee by Tilia. The only other fee which may apply is an inactivity fee. This fee would only apply to those accounts with USD balances which have not accessed their Tilia account in any way (for example, to check balance) or had any credit processing transactions over a period of 12 months or more.

How long will it take to process my credit request? Is it going to take longer than usual with Tilia?

We anticipate that the usual time to process credit, currently two to three business days, will not change for most Second Life Residents once your identification documentation has been verified.

How is this change compliant with GDPR? 

Tilia is fully compliant with GDPR. For more information, please see the link to our Privacy Policy where it reads:

OTHER INFORMATION
See our online Privacy Policy to learn more about information collected through our website and how we use and disclose it. That Privacy Policy should be regarded as part of this Privacy Notice.

Can you clarify the relationship between Tilia and Linden Lab? 

Tilia Inc. is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Linden Lab. 

Can you clarify whether there are ID requirements and fees for basic Linden Dollar purchases?

These changes apply to USD credit processing and do not have any impact on the routine purchasing of Linden Dollars. Only Second Life Residents who Process Credit (cash out) of their USD balance to their payment method (e.g. PayPal)  are impacted by the ID verification requirements (which are necessary for compliance with U.S. laws and regulations).  The inactivity fee applies only to those accounts with USD balances which have not accessed their Tilia account in any way or had any credit processing transactions over a period of 12 months or more.

Will Residents outside the U.S. still need to provide verification or ID for credit processing transactions? 

Yes, anyone who processes credit will need to present a government-issued ID. 

I am not a US citizen, I do not drive & have no passport! We also do not have an official photo ID in the UK so how on earth will I qualify?

For non-U.S. citizens without a driver’s license or passport, we will need an equivalent government-issued ID to verify your identity for credit processing. If this is an issue, please contact our customer support team or continue to check our FAQ for additional guidance after Aug. 1. 

Will you expect me to scan my ID? Will you expect me to send a photocopied version over via snail mail? 

Yes, you would need to scan your ID for Tilia to verify after Aug. 1. We do not expect anyone to use “snail mail” for verification.
 

The problem presented for you in regards to EU citizens is that you have established a subsidiary; Tilia Branch UK Ltd, which is established inside the European Union / European Economic Area, and therefore make you 100% required to comply with EU legislation when it comes to privacy, consumer legislation, the GDPR directive and conflict resolution. 

As a matter of fact, since you have this subsidiary inside the EU, you HAVE to handle your European Union / European Economic Area customers through this company, in the same manner as i.e. Apple, Microsoft, PayPal HAVE to handle their customer relationships through their European subsidiaries and not the US mother company. 

So for European Union / European Economic Area customers you have to present terms of service, requirements for identification, handling of privacy and conflict resolution according to EU law. These will necessarily be different, in the same manner as we see it for the aforementioned companies, from what is presented to the US citizens. 

I am of the opinion the terms, as currently presented, does not meet the minimum requirements for a B2C contract based on EU law. It is in your interest to make them meet these requirements, or the minimum requirements will be applied by the courts in Europe and you will lose in conflicts. In a conflict with a European Union / European Economic Area citizen or company, it is the Tilia Branch UK Ltd company that will be taken to court, and EU law will be applied. 

Granted some of the entities who will deal with Tilia will be businesses and for them you can present a completely different set of terms and contracts, but the majority of Secondlife customers are consumers (the definition also exist in EU law). 

You also have to follow EU tax legislation for these customers, and there is no reason why you should report  European Union / European Economic Area customers being private or businesses to the IRS. It shall be reported to the EU member states in question from your Tilia Branch UK Ltd company. 

 

 

Edited by Gavin Hird
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4 minutes ago, Gavin Hird said:

The problem presented for you in regards to EU citizens is that you have established a subsidiary; Tilia Branch UK Ltd, which is established inside the European Union / European Economic Area, and therefore make you 100% required to comply with EU legislation when it comes to privacy, consumer legislation, the GDPR directive and conflict resolution. 

As a matter of fact, since you have this subsidiary inside the EU, you HAVE to handle your European Union / European Economic Area customers through this company, in the same manner as i.e. Apple, Microsoft, PayPal HAVE to handle their customer relationships through their European subsidiaries and not the US mother company. 

So for European Union / European Economic Area customers you have to present terms of service, requirements for identification, handling of privacy and conflict resolution according the EU law. These will necessarily be different, in the same manner as we see it for the aforementioned companies, from what is presented to the US citizens. 

I am of the opinion the terms, as currently presented, does not meet the minimum requirements for a B2C contract based on EU law. It is in your interest to make them meet these requirements, or the minimum requirements will be applied by the courts in Europe and you will lose in conflicts. In a conflict with a European Union / European Economic Area citizen or company, it is the Tilia Branch UK Ltd company that will be taken to court, and EU law will be applied. 

Granted some of the entities who will deal with Tilia will be businesses and for them you can present a completely different set of terms and contracts, but the majority of Secondlife customers are consumers (the definition also exist in EU law). 

You also have to follow EU tax legislation for these customers, and there is no reason why you should report  European Union / European Economic Area customers being private or businesses to the IRS. It shall be reported to the EU member states in question from your Tilia Branch UK Ltd company. 

 

 

Wow! A powerful comment! Is there somebody who could give us, latin people, canadian, etc, some similar point of view from our own legal perspectives?

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4 hours ago, AnyaJurelle said:

@Linden Lab Need clarification please. 

"Your information is encrypted and locked down to only be accessible by specific people who have a business need to access your information."

Who would have "a business need" to access personal information that LL doesn't already have, if Tilia is LL owned by or a subsidiary of LL already?

May we have an assurance that this isn't for data mining purposes?

Business need to access SPI (sensitive personal information) is usually limited within a company to those who are directly customer facing, that is sales and customer service representatives.  The company I work for, even then in most cases when a sales rep or CSR is working with a customer they will state "I need to access your account to proceed, do I have your permission".   I work in billing operations and I have zero access to customer accounts.  I don't have a business need.    But I digress: to answer your question, access to your SPI is most likely going to be limited to only those people who have a direct immediate need for it at a given point in time.  Employees will probably have to access your private data through an internal  gated system that prevents the average worker from seeing it.

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Posted (edited)

Honestly LL staff, if you REALLY think people are gonna give you their name address and social security number, you must be american for sure, because everywhere else in the world this is called SPYING. NO WAY europeans are gonna give that to you. We will leave SL and you DREAM as a dream machine if you think a single one of us will migrate to your unplayable SANSAR...

You have already our IP address, it's far enough

 

Edited by MALIFAX
addition

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Again I ask WHY everyone in Second Life needs to agree to Tilia's TOS and Privacy Policy when only a very small percentage of the citizenship will be using the service to cashout? 

 

"Effective August 1, in order to continue using Second Life you will have to agree to Tilia’s Terms of Service and Privacy Policy.  A Tilia Account associated with your Second Life Account will automatically be created for you and you will not need a separate username or password to access your Tilia Account."

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Posted (edited)

I appreciate that paying an annual premium fee from a US dollar balance is MEANT to count as activity within 12 months. But can I point out that actually such payments depend on the exact date that Linden Lab processes the payments via Tilia... and experience tells me that this can vary by a few days each year. Hence the payment may be LONGER than 12 months.

As an example I have left a US dollar balance that covers a couple of years of premium fees in my account. This ought to continue to be possible without hitting the account inactivity issues.

Also, the 3 day notice period for inactive accounts to allow the account holder to take appropriate steps is WAY too short. Anyone travelling or away from their usual place of activity needs longer. Please inform one month in advance of making the account inactive.

A small adjustment to the T&C to either make the inactivity period be 13 months (to allow for annual payments with variation of billing) or adding a grace period of one month before inactivity fees are charged after notification has been sent to the account holder.

Edited by Ai Austin
typo
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Just to clarify something... I understand from the @Linden Lab community post that once the Tilia accounts are created they can be accessed with our current SL account user names and passwords. 

If the Second Life password is subsequently changed does the Tilia account also use the new SL password via authentication through SL, or is it separate after creation?

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1 hour ago, Gavin Hird said:

The problem presented for you in regards to EU citizens is that you have established a subsidiary; Tilia Branch UK Ltd, which is established inside the European Union / European Economic Area, and therefore make you 100% required to comply with EU legislation when it comes to privacy, consumer legislation, the GDPR directive and conflict resolution. ....

 

Sprinkles Brexit in, better?

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Cam Mode said:

Sprinkles Brexit in, better?

I only believe in Brexit when it actually happens, the UK has proofed not to be very reliable on this one...

Edited by Fionalein
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2 hours ago, Lasher Oh said:

Some examples of said "government-issued IDs" could and should be given to help those outwith the USA who have genuine concerns

i live outside the USA.  I am not understanding why LL should provide me with examples of IDs issued by my government.  I know what they are, as does every other person in my country who is old enough to legitimately log in to SL

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Posted (edited)

there already is a big thread on the topic -> 

 

Edited by Fionalein
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Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, Cam Mode said:

Sprinkles Brexit in, better?

It is hard to say exactly how Brexit will pan out in this respect, but many companies will have to register subsidiaries inside the EU to ensure they can make business with the EU market, which without the UK is 455 million  (now 511 million with the UK).  Europe overall is about 758 million. 

Having said that, UK legislation is more or less harmonized with the rest of the EU on the issues discussed, and will continue to be so unless the UK parliament change them to something else post Brexit. 

Edited by Gavin Hird

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3 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

i live outside the USA.  I am not understanding why LL should provide me with examples of IDs issued by my government.  I know what they are, as does every other person in my country who is old enough to legitimately log in to SL

That's great for you Molly, well done!  - perhaps you could advise those who don't have you're knowledge and tell the thread what those items are other than Driving License which some don't have, Passport that many also don't have. In UK at least we don't have ID cards other than some ill advertised scheme that people can independently apply for, someone earlier in the this thread kindly referenced it and it was interesting news to me.

I have a regional government issued Bus pass with my photo on it - would that be permissible do you think?

^L^

 

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Neat, bury everything in one big thread that's easily ignored. The thing forums have done for ages to keep issues nice and secluded.

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2 minutes ago, Sabaat said:

Neat, bury everything in one big thread that's easily ignored. The thing forums have done for ages to keep issues nice and secluded.

Not really.  LL are replying to concerns in that big thread.  See pages 5 and 7

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Posted (edited)

I don't have to give this much information to Amazon, Steam, xbox live etc etc to use their services or be threatened with charges for inactivity. They expect me to give up my private information to this degree and tell me it will be safe when not even the biggest tech companies can even manage this or even the banking industry itself. They then tell me that they might refund unused funds in my account and may not even delete the information after requesting termination of said account? They can't even safeguard SL assets and they tell me the information I provide to them will be safe somehow.

Edited by Sabaat
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I just need to understand if i will get charged for not using my account, as long as i have 0 on my account both SL and this Tilia thing, i wont be charged for inactivity right? cuz i do take long breaks from time to time from SL :/ i'd hate to login 3 months later and be negative something amount of dollars or lindens.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Lasher Oh said:

In UK at least we don't have ID cards other than some ill advertised scheme that people can independently apply for.

You do not get provided with a unique national tax ID? My positive image of the Empire just got a mighty crack...

Edited by Fionalein

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, QueenGalaxia said:

I just need to understand if i will get charged for not using my account, as long as i have 0 on my account both SL and this Tilia thing, i wont be charged for inactivity right? cuz i do take long breaks from time to time from SL :/ i'd hate to login 3 months later and be negative something amount of dollars or lindens.

IF you leave amounts in your (currently called) US$ account (that is L$ you have sold to convert to real money) for a long period without transferring it out to paypal and without accessing your Tilia account then you will get a charge.  If you leave L$  in your account, this does not affect you.

Edited by Cindy Evanier
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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

LL needs to know what disturbs people...this helps them provide information to us in the best ways possible.

Actually hiring someone capable of anticipating concerns might be something they really should consider, they seem pretty bad at predicting user reactions and preparing for them.

Edited by Fionalein
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