Tilia takes over

[Qie Niangao]

10 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

The LEA announcement was expected

I expected the announcement to be about LEA's replacement. For all its problems*, without LEA no new SL artist will have the kind of growth opportunities it afforded them over its years of existence.

Disappointing, but I, too, don't see its closing linked with any larger trend. (Although, to be honest, I have a nagging hunch that the lack of a replacement was a decision subconsciously influenced by the sunk cost fallacy pumping ever more Sansar blood on the balance sheet.)

_________________
* And how many reshuffled Bryn Oh regions does one need to see, really?

[Alwin Alcott]

39 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

I don't see the closure connected to our current atmosphere at al

perhaps i worked at to many accountacy departments during my life.. but i think to see connections everywhere.

Cut on costs... even 100 dollars is a cut... small, but ten of those is 1k ...
Put all your money on one pile ... that's what Tilia is ... no matter Sansar or SL... all cash is in T now.... and believe me.. there's a real truckload of sleeping money in the accounts... billing 1000 unused accounts 1 dollar is also again 1k ...
Try to seduce as many people possible to premium promess new homes... that works...  ----> cashhhhhh
Try to get as many possible people to pay a year upfront ( in fact double for many) ------> moooore cashhh
Raise fees, raise subscriptions ( not unusual normally.. but make it a run to get up with the years you didn'ts is kinda weird)
keyword : cash.

( no conspiracy just thoughts)

 

Edited July 19, 2019 by Alwin Alcott

[Fionalein]

18 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

I expected the announcement to be about LEA's replacement. For all its problems*, without LEA no new SL artist will have the kind of growth opportunities it afforded them over its years of existence.

 Disappointing, but I, too, don't see its closing linked with any larger trend. (Although, to be honest, I have a nagging hunch that the lack of a replacement was a decision subconsciously influenced by the sunk cost fallacy pumping ever more Sansar blood on the balance sheet.)

_________________
* And how many reshuffled Bryn Oh regions does one need to see, really?

The artists might get encouraged to head over to SANS - not working with your OS - AR

 

[Garnet Psaltery]

I think it's admirable that a few forum members are still trying to help people coming in with questions.  I certainly couldn't do it; I answered someone who tried to befriend me inworld while asking questions, then I logged off, shuddering.   I'm sorry, I do feel some responsibility for raising this topic even though I had no answers myself when I did.  Please let go of the burden if you've had enough. 

Perhaps a nude picture of me will cause an admin to close it.    

 

[Patch Linden]

6 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

OMG, we're all so helpful.

@Linden Lab, can you please make the "Official" Tilia thread a sticky at the top of this forum, so that people can find it, and we don't have to scroll through pages to get the link?

Done!

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, Chic Aeon said:

LEA

What’s LEA?

[Alwin Alcott]

51 minutes ago, Garnet Psaltery said:

 

Perhaps a nude picture of me will cause an admin to close it.    

 

 

[Chic Aeon]

3 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

What’s LEA?

Linden Endowment for the Arts   --- See Inara's post here:  https://modemworld.me/2019/07/17/linden-endowment-for-the-arts-to-officially-close/

 

For those of you that do not know (and hence perhaps why MY take on the closing is coming from another direction) I was a part of LEA from almost the beginning.  As an artist, I had two exhibits the first round -- all built by myself; that was how it was done in the beginning. One plot I won simply by being fast enough and grabbing a "free" spot, the next because I had one of the best builds in those free spots (official quote by  a later departed LEA board member).  I also made the first LEA video  highlighting the builds of that first round.    These three videos from year one are still on my YouTube channel. 

 

Later on I applied for an Artist in Residence Grant and opened version 1 of the Machinima Open Studio Project where people could film freely and even rez their props. At the end of that round I was invited to move MOSP from LEA20 to LEA7 as a permanently established feature of the CORE.  I was there for three years when I left simplistically because of infighting that I was in the middle of (my perception, I am sure others would have other comments and of course neither perception is the whole story).  MOSP was invited to return to the CORE in January of 2018 after some of those fighting exited the LEA Board.   I became the curator of MOSP 3.0 at LEA7.  I was never on the LEA board; I was an adviser to the board for almost three years. 

 

The reason that I say the closing was not unexpected is that (at least several) folks on the committee saw the disappearance of the AIRS sims as the first death knell for LEA.  We never expected "restructuring" to happen.    The official LEA page that said it would disappear soon (this for well over a year six months) never was replaced by the shiny new board members. NOW the "will soon be replaced" text has "closing" text.  The people that were fighting to BE on the New LEA board were completely quiet --- etc. etc.    None of these things were positive signs of a return or of even restructuring. 

 

LEA was a good program. It helped countless artists. But I still do not feel that its demise was directly connected to Tilia which is how this topic came up on this thread. 

 

Since this thread is the ONLY real way for folks to get answers now and since a fair amount of people ON this thread KNOW the answers now, I hope it will remain for the folks that are  still confused.  

 

The best thing that we can do as individuals is to alert our friends that there WILL be a change coming and advise them to do research. I am sure there are still a fair amount of citizens with USD balances in their SL accounts --- who will be surprised on August 1st when they find a new TOS. 

Edited July 19, 2019 by Chic Aeon
changed year to six months - my error

[Love Zhaoying]

8 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

Linden Endowment for the Arts   --- See Inara's post here:  https://modemworld.me/2019/07/17/linden-endowment-for-the-arts-to-officially-close/

 

Thanks. Odd that I missed discussion of LEA in the few years I’ve been on the forum (or saw it and didn’t understand).

[Fionalein]

32 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Thanks. Odd that I missed discussion of LEA in the few years I’ve been on the forum (or saw it and didn’t understand).

There was not much. All I remember was a thread a while back (1 to 2 years?) accusing LEA of being dysfunctional (like instead of giving new artists a chance we saw the same faces aagain and again) - shortly after the program was put on hold and this now seems to be the final conclusion. I have not been around long enough while LEA was still a thing so cannot judge for myself - but if the claims were right I'd say change was inevitable.

 Given the Lab's notorious lack of communication skill they might even have a replacement project up their sleeves and simply have forgotten to tell us so 

Edited July 19, 2019 by Fionalein

[Scylla Rhiadra]

11 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

There was not much. All I remember was a thread a while back (1 to 2 years?) accusing LEA of being dysfunctional (like instead of giving new artists a chance we saw the same faces aagain and again) - shortly after the program was put on hold and this now seems to be the final conclusion. I have not been around long enough while LEA was still a thing so cannot judge for myself - but if the claims were right I'd say change was inevitable.

 Given the Lab's notorious lack of communication skill they might even have a replacement project up their sleeves and simply have forgotten to tell us so 

Chic -- who has exhibited at LEA, amongst other things -- probably has the best insights into the problems and issues surrounding LEA. There certainly was a lot of criticism leveled against it in the past, esp. ca. 2015, for cronyism and such.

I'm with Qie: I'd like to have seen a replacement, or a new and better program announced alongside this quiet little cancellation.

[Lexbot Sinister]

I hear a lot of people speaking about "sleeping" accounts and the money collected there, and the idea that this money could now be harvested.

I don't see how this could work for already dormant accounts, as they will not accept Tilias ToS, logging in or otherwise. They can not be forced in under a ToS they did not accept.  So i don't see how LL could drain the USD from old accounts, and that being legal.

 

It will however deal with new accounts going stale, as long as they have accepted the Tilia ToS.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

7 hours ago, onyx Kelberry said:

Just a few weeks ago LL doubled the processing fee for cashing out from 2.5% to 5%.

Are we going to have pay fee's to LL and to Tilia now ?

I'm going to answer this on the (admittedly doubtful) assumption that, just maybe, it is an actual question.

There is NO indication, and no reason to believe at this time, that LL, through Tilia or SL, is planning to add additional fees. In fact, on the contrary, LL has announced that Tilia's fees for credit processing are the same as those currently charged, and not additional to them. I quote from the very first FAQ in LL's "Official" Tilia thread:

Quote

Is this an extra fee on top of the recently changed credit processing fee?

No. The credit processing fees remain unchanged for you as a Resident. You will not be charged anything extra for a credit processing fee by Tilia. The only other fee which may apply is an inactivity fee. This fee would only apply to those accounts with USD balances which have not accessed their Tilia account in any way (for example, to check balance) or had any credit processing transactions over a period of 12 months or more.

If you want a more detailed breakdown of the implications of the changes, check out the FAQ here, and most especially Inara Pey's detailed, comprehensive, and wonderfully well organized summary of the recent town hall on this subject.

Finally, I'm going to echo Qie's point: if you already know enough to be aware that LL raised the fee for credit processing, you know enough to be able to find this information yourself, just as I, and most others on this thread, have. Personally, I can make allowance for residents who do not regularly process credit, because they are likely to be generally unaware of the entire process, and LL has not done a great job of passing this info on. It's pretty clear, however, that you have no such excuse.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

7 minutes ago, Lexbot Sinister said:

I hear a lot of people speaking about "sleeping" accounts and the money collected there, and the idea that this money could now be harvested.

I don't see how this could work for already dormant accounts, as they will not accept Tilias ToS, logging in or otherwise. They can not be forced in under a ToS they did not accept.  So i don't see how LL could drain the USD from old accounts, and that being legal.

 

It will however deal with new accounts going stale, as long as they have accepted the Tilia ToS.

These are really excellent questions, and I don't think they've really been addressed by LL. The logic of your first point -- that dormant accounts that do not accept the Tilia TOS because they don't log in anymore can't be subject to the inactivity fee -- seems pretty good, but I don't know the legal technicalities.

I doubt very much that there are huge sums sitting in such accounts, however, unless the owner has died, and there are provisions for that eventuality in the new setup.

Edited July 19, 2019 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Selene Gregoire]

10 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I am completely and utterly mystified by the absence of any movement from LL on this.

• The blog post announcing Tilia hasn't been updated since before the Town Hall, and (get this!) STILL SAYS THAT ALL SL RESIDENTS WILL NEED TO AGREE TO THE TILIA TOS!!!!
   
• The FAQ to which the blog post links has not been changed at all since it was first posted.
   
• The "Official" Tilia Forum thread has been locked, with the result that we can't bump it up, and is currently slowing sinking to the bottom of the second page of this forum. AND it's a disorganized mess.
   
• NO official transcript of the Town Hall has yet appeared, that I have seen.
   
• The only comprehensive and well-organized account of what this is all about is Inara's (my god, she deserves a lifetime service award)
   
• And, clearly, no one has thought to reach out at all to SL's international community.

Seriously, WTF? Even I could write up a comprehensive, simple, and brief communication in a couple of hours or less (and all for the low low price of a Linden Home houseboat!), but they haven't been able to take the time to even update their own official blog announcement????

I despair.

Welcome to SL. 

[Selene Gregoire]

9 hours ago, CoffeeDujour said:

The Lab getting all SL's ducks in a line after 16 years of 'near enough' is indeed an ill wind.

That's because they are shooting all the ducklings.

[Selene Gregoire]

6 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said:

perhaps i worked at to many accountacy departments during my life.. but i think to see connections everywhere.

Cut on costs... even 100 dollars is a cut... small, but ten of those is 1k ...
Put all your money on one pile ... that's what Tilia is ... no matter Sansar or SL... all cash is in T now.... and believe me.. there's a real truckload of sleeping money in the accounts... billing 1000 unused accounts 1 dollar is also again 1k ...
Try to seduce as many people possible to premium promess new homes... that works...  ----> cashhhhhh
Try to get as many possible people to pay a year upfront ( in fact double for many) ------> moooore cashhh
Raise fees, raise subscriptions ( not unusual normally.. but make it a run to get up with the years you didn'ts is kinda weird)
keyword : cash.

( no conspiracy just thoughts)

 

All things done typically by most businesses on a daily basis.

That comes for someone who worked as a full charge bookkeeper for an underground utility contractor for the municipalities of the state for more than a decade.

[onyx Kelberry]

3 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

10 hours ago, onyx Kelberry said:

Just a few weeks ago LL doubled the processing fee for cashing out from 2.5% to 5%.

Are we going to have pay fee's to LL and to Tilia now ?

I'm going to answer this on the (admittedly doubtful) assumption that, just maybe, it is an actual question.

There is NO indication, and no reason to believe at this time, that LL, through Tilia or SL, is planning to add additional fees. In fact, on the contrary, LL has announced that Tilia's fees for credit processing are the same as those currently charged, and not additional to them. I quote from the very first FAQ in LL's "Official" Tilia thread:

Quote

Is this an extra fee on top of the recently changed credit processing fee?

No. The credit processing fees remain unchanged for you as a Resident. You will not be charged anything extra for a credit processing fee by Tilia. The only other fee which may apply is an inactivity fee. This fee would only apply to those accounts with USD balances which have not accessed their Tilia account in any way (for example, to check balance) or had any credit processing transactions over a period of 12 months or more.

If you want a more detailed breakdown of the implications of the changes, check out the FAQ here, and most especially Inara Pey's detailed, comprehensive, and wonderfully well organized summary of the recent town hall on this subject.

Finally, I'm going to echo Qie's point: if you already know enough to be aware that LL raised the fee for credit processing, you know enough to be able to find this information yourself, just as I, and most others on this thread, have. Personally, I can make allowance for residents who do not regularly process credit, because they are likely to be generally unaware of the entire process, and LL has not done a great job of passing this info on. It's pretty clear, however, that you have no such excuse.

I am sorry if this question seemed silly to you but It was a legit question as I did put a ( ? )  It might be to others as well if they withdraw money from second life.

After all Tilia will be handling the process. Yes I do know about the fee but this does not mean another fee will not be added on when Tilia takes effect.

I did read about Tilia but I must have missed that as most of what I read was confusing to begin with and it went on and on .....

Its nice to have people helping others but those who ridicule while doing it just makes them look like bullies.

Thank you for the informative response.

Edited July 19, 2019 by onyx Kelberry

[Chic Aeon]

2 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

These are really excellent questions, and I don't think they've really been addressed by LL. The logic of your first point -- that dormant accounts that do not accept the Tilia TOS because they don't log in anymore can't be subject to the inactivity fee -- seems pretty good, but I don't know the legal technicalities.

I doubt very much that there are huge sums sitting in such accounts, however, unless the owner has died, and there are provisions for that eventuality in the new setup.

Obviously not an attorney (well I guess I could be as we never REALLY know, but I am not) what I CAN say is that in my home state of Oregon, IF you do not use your bank account in over a year  (see that YEAR part in there) your bank will send out a letter asking you to return the letter signed in that "are you still alive and are you still living in Oregon" manner.

If you do not return the signed letter, the bank (can? - is required? not really sure about that part) send the money in that "inactive" account to the state.  I know this as I have had two of those letters (some people actually DO consider "savings" as "savings"). I also had a lengthy conversation with the person at my bank responsible for checking "inactive" accounts.     

Some financial institutions only require you to call them once a year if you are not using the account.  The ones I am familiar with with THAT rule are in other states besides Oregon. 

 

Rules vary but it seem VERY likely to me that there is a loophole letting LL siphon money from old and inactive USD coffers.  Is this bad? Is this good?   Well, if the person died and left a USD balance then unless the beneficiary contacts LL, it will stay there forever. IF it is $0 .84 then the person PROBABLY isn't going to spend the $3.00 US fee to move that money out into the real world.   If, this unclaimed money keeps SL (paraphrasing since we have no transcript *wink*) Second Life to continue in the manner it has been  which she said in some similar phrasing at least two times if I remember correctly --- then I think that is a better plan than some of the alternatives. 

[Chic Aeon]

6 minutes ago, onyx Kelberry said:

After all Tilia will be handling the process. Yes I do know about the fee but this does not mean another fee will not be added on when Tilia takes effect.

I did read about Tilia but I must have missed that as most of what I read was confusing to begin with and it went on and on

It does say in the Tilia TOS (and this is not unusual these days and I really HATE that) LL can change the TOS of Tilia at any time in the future. This was affirmed in the video, so yes, it does seem that the fee could be increased but ONLY if it is legal within the laws of the various states. Grumpity mentioned that each state was different and so that "not more than three dollars per month" estimate was dependent on the laws of the various states.   So it isn't likely that they can just decide to make it $5.00 on their own for example. They have TOLD us anyway that they cannot.    WATCH THE VIDEO.

 

While LL has told us many things lately that they aren't following through on, I do believe that the RL laws will keep THAT kind of change from being arbitrary.  AGAIN, for the people that will continue to use Tilia and process there USD balances to Paypal etc, they will need to stay alert. Also AGAIN, Premium members will not have to worry about the fee. So the CURRENT number of users that have to worry about this are very small.    WATCH THE VIDEO.

[onyx Kelberry]

2 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

16 minutes ago, onyx Kelberry said:

After all Tilia will be handling the process. Yes I do know about the fee but this does not mean another fee will not be added on when Tilia takes effect.

I did read about Tilia but I must have missed that as most of what I read was confusing to begin with and it went on and on

It does say in the Tilia TOS (and this is not unusual these days and I really HATE that) LL can change the TOS of Tilia at any time in the future. This was affirmed in the video, so yes, it does seem that the fee could be increased but ONLY if it is legal within the laws of the various states. Grumpity mentioned that each state was different and so that "not more than three dollars per month" estimate was dependent on the laws of the various states.   So it isn't likely that they can just decide to make it $5.00 on their own for example. They have TOLD us anyway that they cannot.    WATCH THE VIDEO.

 

While LL has told us many things lately that they aren't following through on, I do believe that the RL laws will keep THAT kind of change from being arbitrary.  AGAIN, for the people that will continue to use Tilia and process there USD balances to Paypal etc, they will need to stay alert. Also AGAIN, Premium members will not have to worry about the fee. So the CURRENT number of users that have to worry about this are very small.    WATCH THE VIDEO

I will and thank you Chic. Much appreciated

[Scylla Rhiadra]

7 minutes ago, onyx Kelberry said:

I am sorry if this question seemed silly to you but It was a legit question as I did put a ( ? )  It might be to others as well if they withdraw money from second life.

After all Tilia will be handling the process. Yes I do know about the fee but this does not mean another fee will not be added on when Tilia takes effect.

I did read about Tilia but I must have missed that as most of what I read was confusing to begin with and it went on and on .....

Its nice to have people helping others but those who ridicule while doing it just makes them look like bullies.

Thank you for the informative response.

The question does not, in itself, seem at all "silly," Onyx.

I've spent literally hours and hours here over the past few weeks trying to assist residents coming in with questions, concerns, or misinformation about Tilia. The vast majority of those questions were from people who pretty clearly have not processed credit out of Second Life, and in most cases didn't even know what that term meant. Their confusion is pretty understandable. On top of that, yes, you are right, the available information is confusing, and it's actually not easy finding authoritative answers. Even LL's own blog post announcing Tilia contains incorrect information, as (for some unaccountable reason) it has not been updated since LL made a major change to the process, and exempted most residents from having to agree to the Tilia TOS.

What triggered me a little, and I assume Qie, about your post is that you obviously do know something about this process, and should certainly know enough to be able to find the answers without first contributing, as you (unintentionally, I hope) did by airing misinformation about new fees.

I'm sorry if my response seemed "bullying," but I'm getting awfully tired of doing this.

One question for which I'd seriously like an answer is, where did you get the idea that there were likely, or even possibly, going to be new fees?

At no point in this process has LL suggested anything of the sort. I don't want specific names or even groups -- but I'd really like to know how this misinformation is being spread around. And I'd love to know if any of it is malicious.

[onyx Kelberry]

3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

21 minutes ago, onyx Kelberry said:

I am sorry if this question seemed silly to you but It was a legit question as I did put a ( ? )  It might be to others as well if they withdraw money from second life.

After all Tilia will be handling the process. Yes I do know about the fee but this does not mean another fee will not be added on when Tilia takes effect.

I did read about Tilia but I must have missed that as most of what I read was confusing to begin with and it went on and on .....

Its nice to have people helping others but those who ridicule while doing it just makes them look like bullies.

Thank you for the informative response.

The question does not, in itself, seem at all "silly," Onyx.

I've spent literally hours and hours here over the past few weeks trying to assist residents coming in with questions, concerns, or misinformation about Tilia. The vast majority of those questions were from people who pretty clearly have not processed credit out of Second Life, and in most cases didn't even know what that term meant. Their confusion is pretty understandable. On top of that, yes, you are right, the available information is confusing, and it's actually not easy finding authoritative answers. Even LL's own blog post announcing Tilia contains incorrect information, as (for some unaccountable reason) it has not been updated since LL made a major change to the process, and exempted most residents from having to agree to the Tilia TOS.

What triggered me a little, and I assume Qie, about your post is that you obviously do know something about this process, and should certainly know enough to be able to find the answers without first contributing, as you (unintentionally, I hope) did by airing misinformation about new fees.

I'm sorry if my response seemed "bullying," but I'm getting awfully tired of doing this.

One question for which I'd seriously like an answer is, where did you get the idea that there were likely, or even possibly, going to be new fees?

At no point in this process has LL suggested anything of the sort. I don't want specific names or even groups -- but I'd really like to know how this misinformation is being spread around. And I'd love to know if any of it is malicious.

I wasn't saying there would be additional fee's I was asking if there would be. LL sprung the last one on us and Tilia will need administrators, logically at some point I suspect there will be fee's attached to that as well. I did not spread such a rumor and I didn't hear of it either, it was a question I asked myself. To me it only seemed like a logical question.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

8 minutes ago, onyx Kelberry said:

I wasn't saying there would be additional fee's I was asking if there would be. LL sprung the last one on us and Tilia will need administrators, logically at some point I suspect there will be fee's attached to that as well. I did not spread such a rumor and I didn't hear of it either, it was a question I asked myself. To me it only seemed like a logical question.

Thank you for that.

Let's concede that LL could be doing a much better job of managing the communication of this than they are, and leave it at that.

Btw, the video is good, but a much more accessible source of the same information is Inara Pey's summary, which I provided the link for in my initial post to you. I'd suggest you focus on that.

[onyx Kelberry]

7 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Thank you for that.

Let's concede that LL could be doing a much better job of managing the communication of this than they are, and leave it at that.

Btw, the video is good, but a much more accessible source of the same information is Inara Pey's summary, which I provided the link for in my initial post to you. I'd suggest you focus on that.

I will, thank you and I suggest others do the same.

 But mostly I will not take anything for granted. It seems to me that LL keep's on changing things. Only time will tell us what we are up against.

As my mother use to say - We will cross that bridge when we get to it.