Tilia takes over

[PeterDwyerTownsend]

So let me get this straight.

A person that is not a Creator and only buys  linden dollars, and buys  content in game, they can ignore this ?

If a Creator uses in game currency to pay for estate, tier etc etc they to can also ignore this. ?

If  a creator wants to  convert linden dollars, into hard cash,    to help pay for RL living expenses they now have to hand over details, even those out side USA will have to breach their nations law and illegally hand over photo details if they wish to convert  lindens to  RL currency. ?

A. N. other whom might have been gifted   linden dollars  for the intent of say  exchanging it for RL currency to buy an rl birthday present, will likewise have to provide details that in many european  countries would break their own laws. ?

while it isn't likely to effect me, if the above examples are correct, seems like this platform is going to be on borrowed times as content creators give up, and this place loses  more customers,  more  logins.

 

 

[KanryDrago]

9 minutes ago, PeterDwyerTownsend said:

So let me get this straight.

A person that is not a Creator and only buys  linden dollars, and buys  content in game, they can ignore this ?

If a Creator uses in game currency to pay for estate, tier etc etc they to can also ignore this. ?

If  a creator wants to  convert linden dollars, into hard cash,    to help pay for RL living expenses they now have to hand over details, even those out side USA will have to breach their nations law and illegally hand over photo details if they wish to convert  lindens to  RL currency. ?

A. N. other whom might have been gifted   linden dollars  for the intent of say  exchanging it for RL currency to buy an rl birthday present, will likewise have to provide details that in many european  countries would break their own laws. ?

while it isn't likely to effect me, if the above examples are correct, seems like this platform is going to be on borrowed times as content creators give up, and this place loses  more customers,  more  logins.

 

 

It is not a breach of your laws. EU laws supersede national laws for EU countries and EU laws state that payment processors need to identify their customers. Don't like it leave the eu

[Rya Nitely]

On 7/5/2019 at 1:09 AM, Chic Aeon said:

To ME :"cashing out" means sending money to Paypal  and "exchanging" means turning lindens into "a dollar balance" so I obviously knew that and I suspect anyone who has read my posts is aware of that understanding

I think some of us have been around these forums (especially the merchant forums) for long enough to know what we mean, and Blush hasn't - hence her confusion.

 'cashing out' of SL has always meant processing credit, otherwise the cash is still in the system.

[Blush Bravin]

11 minutes ago, Rya Nitely said:

I think some of us have been around these forums (especially the merchant forums) for long enough to know what we mean, and Blush hasn't - hence her confusion.

 'cashing out' of SL has always meant processing credit, otherwise the cash is still in the system.

I have been in SL since 2003. I have been a merchant since 2008. I know what the terms mean. I simply choose to use the same terms Linden Lab uses for exchanging lindens for USD$ = cashing out, and for moving USD$ from my account to Paypal = process credit. 

This reminds me of when my mother uses a word incorrectly and I point out the dictionary meaning to her and her reply is well that's not what I meant.. and then she expects everyone to use the word according to her definition. It doesn't work that way.

It is further erroneous to expect those who might indeed by new to the system to somehow know what the old timers mean when they use the terms incorrectly.

Edited July 5, 2019 by Blush Bravin

[Rya Nitely]

14 hours ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

On 7/5/2019 at 1:50 AM, Chic Aeon said:

So if anyone wonders why I don't respond to Blush's comments any longer it is because I don't see them. Feel free to block me if you feel I am incorrect or confusing.  We should ALL be having a pleasant experience here, not fighting.

So people shouldn't correct you when you are wrong?

But she wasn't wrong. She used the term cash out the way I use. And she is right about one thing  'We should ALL be having a pleasant experience here, not fighting.'

And Blush does rub people the wrong way. And she doesn't realise it, unfortunately.

[Rya Nitely]

1 minute ago, Blush Bravin said:

I simply choose to use the same terms Linden Lab uses for exchanging lindens for USD$ = cashing out, and for moving USD$ from my account to Paypal = process credit. 

OK, you may be right. But your tone often isn't. Please show me where it gives both definitions so that I can use them in future. 

[Beth Macbain]

6 minutes ago, Rya Nitely said:

And Blush does rub people the wrong way. And she doesn't realise it, unfortunately.

That was both uncalled for and untrue.

[Blush Bravin]

3 minutes ago, Rya Nitely said:

OK, you may be right. But your tone often isn't. Please show me where it gives both definitions so that I can use them in future. 

This is just a quick reference

Because there is much confusion surrounding these terms I have made this post 

The only reason I bring this up is because people are confused and some have said they will quit SL before they have to give their personal info to cash out to pay for their premium account fees or tier. I've seen it in several places. So, I am simply trying to get the message across that you can cash out without giving LL your personal info. That the information is only required when you request a process credit.

[Rya Nitely]

@Linden Lab Please in the original post add a glossary of terms. There is a huge amount of confusion over the terms "cashing out" and "processcredit."

but that doesn't prove you are right

 

'Cashing out' has always been the expression we have used for process credit for many years in the merchant forums, where you have been only  a recent participant - hence you are unfamiliar with it.

OUT being the operative word.

Edited July 6, 2019 by Rya Nitely

[Blush Bravin]

1 minute ago, Rya Nitely said:

@Linden Lab Please in the original post add a glossary of terms. There is a huge amount of confusion over the terms "cashing out" and "processcredit."

but that doesn't prove you are right

I posted that to say that I've specifically suggested the Lab put a glossary of the terms in the OP. I wasn't using my post as proof. You should be able to read Oz's post for that proof.

[Rya Nitely]

he gives the definition of process credit, not cashing out.

Where does it say cashing out is the exchange lindens for $US then yes, then you are right, and I will happily accept it as the way to go in future 🙂, otherwise it is just your personal preference. Maybe I missed it.

And anyway enough of that, there are more important things.

[Blush Bravin]

19 minutes ago, Rya Nitely said:

OK, you may be right. But your tone often isn't. Please show me where it gives both definitions so that I can use them in future. 

You can also see for yourself in the Knowledge Base on Account Balance. https://community.secondlife.com/knowledgebase/english/account-balance-r1/Section_.2.2?lang=en-US

 

[Beth Macbain]

Just now, Blush Bravin said:

You can also see for yourself in the Knowledge Base on Account Balance. https://community.secondlife.com/knowledgebase/english/account-balance-r1/Section_.2.2?lang=en-US

 

It’s really sad when adults can’t admit they’re wrong. Stop banging your head against this particular wall... it’s not worth it, especially when they resort to nasty personal digs instead of owning up to it and saying mea culpa.

[MoiraKathleen]

I think a definition from LL of the "cashing out" term and the "process credit" term would be very useful.  If the only people asking questions or upset about the Tilia announcement were merchants who already cash out and process credit, perhaps it wouldn't be needed.  However, there was a concern from someone in one of these threads thinking 'process credit' had to do with using a credit card to purchase linden dollars, and thought that he was going to need to provide the additional personal information in order to continue purchasing linden dollars.

I don't earn money in SL, only sometimes skim through posts in the Merchant forums, and often have to go look at the knowledge base articles to clarify for myself what is 'cashing out' and what is 'process credit'. 

[Selene Gregoire]

What residents call one thing isn't necessarily what the Lindens call the same thing. As long as I have been in SL cashing out has always meant taking real USD out of your USD Second Life account, by transferring it to another institution that handles financial transactions but are not considered banks (PayPal). LL has never transferred funds to a bank (checking/savings) account to my knowledge. 

What is throwing people is the term 'process credit' which normally refers to credit card transactions. LL needs to rethink the term they are using because that is what is causing the confusion. People think they mean credit card transactions, not withdrawing USD from SL.

[Blush Bravin]

I confess to having used the term cashing out to mean withdrawing funds (processing credit) in the past. But just as I'm trying to make the transition from saying sim where I should say region, I am doing the same in regards to using process credit. Typically, it doesn't make all that much of a difference to distinguish between the exchange of lindens to USD$ and the withdrawal of those funds, but with the new Tilia requirements of providing personal identification only when withdrawing funds, the distinction is important. 

I don't think it's ever too late for an old dog to learn a new trick. So I will keep plugging away trying to keep up with the terminology. I do hope the Lab will provide that glossary. 

And now I've had all I can stand of beating this poor horse.

Edited July 6, 2019 by Blush Bravin

[Qie Niangao]

Am I the only one who could benefit from a flowchart here?

I can't draw it, but I'd sure like to see one drawn at the Lab, with fee payment, verification, and other processes laid out.

(But I may in fact be the only one.)

[Kyrah Abattoir]

3 hours ago, PeterDwyerTownsend said:

A person that is not a Creator and only buys  linden dollars, and buys  content in game, they can ignore this ?

Yes

3 hours ago, PeterDwyerTownsend said:

If a Creator uses in game currency to pay for estate, tier etc etc they to can also ignore this. ?

Yes

3 hours ago, PeterDwyerTownsend said:

If  a creator wants to  convert linden dollars, into hard cash,    to help pay for RL living expenses they now have to hand over details, even those out side USA will have to breach their nations law and illegally hand over photo details if they wish to convert  lindens to  RL currency. ?

No, they have to do what every business has always had to do to be in compliance with the tax system, and if you aren't operating as a company, you have to identify yourself personally.

3 hours ago, PeterDwyerTownsend said:

A. N. other whom might have been gifted   linden dollars  for the intent of say  exchanging it for RL currency to buy an rl birthday present, will likewise have to provide details that in many european  countries would break their own laws. ?

After a certain amount of money, yes, because otherwise it is called fraud.

3 hours ago, PeterDwyerTownsend said:

while it isn't likely to effect me, if the above examples are correct, seems like this platform is going to be on borrowed times as content creators give up, and this place loses  more customers,  more  logins.

No, it's called doing what it is being told to do to comply with US regulation. You expect Linden Lab to commit fraud for your own comfort?

[Scylla Rhiadra]

2 hours ago, moirakathleen said:

I think a definition from LL of the "cashing out" term and the "process credit" term would be very useful.  If the only people asking questions or upset about the Tilia announcement were merchants who already cash out and process credit, perhaps it wouldn't be needed.  However, there was a concern from someone in one of these threads thinking 'process credit' had to do with using a credit card to purchase linden dollars, and thought that he was going to need to provide the additional personal information in order to continue purchasing linden dollars.

I don't earn money in SL, only sometimes skim through posts in the Merchant forums, and often have to go look at the knowledge base articles to clarify for myself what is 'cashing out' and what is 'process credit'.

This is exactly right. The nomenclature that has been used here, which I am sure is probably recognizable and comprehensible to business lawyers or accountants, is enormously misleading for the rest of us mere mortals. This is part and parcel of LL's really poor job of explaining all of this in their initial blog post: to discover what "process credit" meant, I had to 1) go to the blog post, 2) click through to the FAQ, and 3) follow another link there to a more detailed description of what the term meant. And even this last one didn't actually define it; it was just clear from the context of the description that this was what was signified.

I don't know if there is a legal reason for using technical jargon like "process credit" in their communications with us. If there is, then obviously they should have defined it. If there isn't a good reason to use it, they shouldn't have. I've avoided the term mostly (maybe entirely?) in my own answers to people in these threads, instead describing the process itself. 95% or more of us simply don't need to know this term: what is important is that we understand the underlying meaning.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

4 hours ago, PeterDwyerTownsend said:

A. N. other whom might have been gifted   linden dollars  for the intent of say  exchanging it for RL currency to buy an rl birthday present, will likewise have to provide details that in many european  countries would break their own laws. ?

So, without implying that there is anything nefarious or illegal going on here, this almost exactly describes how you should not be using L$. Because, essentially, what you're describing here is the basic mechanism by which money laundering works.

If you want someone to have some RL money to buy an RL gift, or anything, then . . . send them RL money, using a conventional RL money transfer mechanism.

[Garnet Psaltery]

How can it be called 'cashing out' if you don't actually get cash?

[Zeta Vandyke]

11 hours ago, PeterDwyerTownsend said:

If  a creator wants to  convert linden dollars, into hard cash,    to help pay for RL living expenses they now have to hand over details, even those out side USA will have to breach their nations law and illegally hand over photo details if they wish to convert  lindens to  RL currency. ?

A. N. other whom might have been gifted   linden dollars  for the intent of say  exchanging it for RL currency to buy an rl birthday present, will likewise have to provide details that in many european  countries would break their own laws. ?

Pleas inform yourself about your own laws and rules before blaming LL for breaking them, because they are not. In fact, if they would not require you to ID yourself they would be breaking both the USA law AND the EU law because in European countries the same laws applies as in the USA when doing money transactions like these. You are also required by law to identify yourself.

Anti-money laundering and counter terrorist financing

Directive (EU) 2015/849 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 20 May 2015 on the prevention of the use of the financial system for the purposes of money laundering or terrorist financing

A quote from this site: "It is essential that gatekeepers (banks and other obliged entities) apply measures to prevent money laundering and terrorist financing. Traceability of financial information has an important deterrent effect. The European Union adopted the first anti-money laundering Directive in 1990 in order to prevent the misuse of the financial system for the purpose of money laundering. It provides that obliged entities shall apply customer due diligence requirements when entering into a business relationship (i.e. identify and verify the identity of clients, monitor transactions and report suspicious transactions). This legislation has been constantly revised in order to mitigate risks relating to money laundering and terrorist financing."

[Blush Bravin]

10 hours ago, Blush Bravin said:

I have been in SL since 2003. I have been a merchant since 2008. I know what the terms mean. I simply choose to use the same terms Linden Lab uses for exchanging lindens for USD$ = cashing out, and for moving USD$ from my account to Paypal = process credit. 

This reminds me of when my mother uses a word incorrectly and I point out the dictionary meaning to her and her reply is well that's not what I meant.. and then she expects everyone to use the word according to her definition. It doesn't work that way.

It is further erroneous to expect those who might indeed by new to the system to somehow know what the old timers mean when they use the terms incorrectly.

I'm going to amend my definitions here because upon further investigation I can't find anywhere in the documentation where Linden Lab actually ever uses the term cashing out at all. They call it selling lindens and process credit as far as I can find. When residents use the term cashing out it seems to encompass the complete process, which is two distinct steps, of exchanging lindens for USD$ and the withdrawal (process credit) of those funds. Or maybe that's not what they mean. Maybe they mean withdrawing their balance to PayPal. But since it's not an official term but simply one adopted by residents, whose to say what the term really means? And therein lies the problem.

With there being different personal information requirements for withdrawing USD$ and simply selling lindens$ for USD$, it's more important than ever to distinguish between the steps. So, as before when I adopted the term, process credit, I'm going to do my best to stop using the term cashing out completely, and replace it with selling lindens for USD$. 

My intent in all of this was to clarify for those who were confused as to when or if they would have to submit personal identification. Unfortunately, I may have muddied the waters even further by using the term cashing out at all. For that I'm sorry. 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

I think I've worked out LL's strategy for dealing with criticism and questions about Tilia.

Leave them alone to chatter among themselves about it for 4 days, until they are all so flipping bored of the subject that they wander off distractedly to do something -- anything -- else.

[Majestic Kohime]

Hello, i do have a question, will we have to send AGAIN all the informations about ourselves?

I mean, all those cashout infos, LL already got those, does this concern EVERYONE? or just people that didnt send those informations on cashout yet?

 

I would be very bothered to send again those infos to LL

Thanks by adavance for answers

Edited July 6, 2019 by Majestic Kohime