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Chic Aeon

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I was just clicking on a "thank you" icon for someone and had a flashback of the SL past. Now I am fairly old but not ancient. I remember "the old days" but not "the OLDEN days".   So I was thinking it would be good to share early SL memories -- ones that made an impression, ones that transformed your virtual life in some way.  Things newer citizen never knew existed. 

 

I have tons of early memories of course, but here is what I flashed back to when I hit that "thank you" button.

 

Long ago, people could give sort of "kudos points" to other avatars. This cost 25 lindens per point as I remember but it is a tad blurry so no guarantee there. I think there were categories of choices to WHY you thought they deserved extra brownie points. I saw a sculpture (prim of course back then) at a famous clothing store (now departed) and evidently knew enough to check the maker (I was pretty new) OR maybe there was a sign with a name (more likely).  I gave my  "thank you for being you and doing great things" award. I was actually surprised it cost me those 25 lindens, but I decided I was OK with that. 

 

I am not sure how long that user to user option lasted, but not too long after I cast my artistic vote. The problem was that folks banded together in that "I like you - you like me" Flickresce manner and so the whole purpose was gamed and had no credibility at all.  

 

Just some looking back thoughts. 

I bet some of you have important memories. Extra bonus points if you are 14 or older LOL.  

 

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While I'm an oldbie (13 years on July 19th of this year), I'm not one of the OLDBIE oldbies.  I was one of the post May 2006 people who came in after LL created free accounts.  I had heard about SL before then, but not knowing how well SL would run on the PC (not very well), and being involved in MMO's I didn't want to pay for another subscription.  I joined when a tech vodcast I followed....vodcasts being what we now would call youtube channels, announced they were doing a meetup in the "next big thing" in SL and that accounts were now free.

zOMG Stipends!  That was an actual SL t-shirt made during the stipends controversy of 2006, when it went from the Blessed 500L$ of the Oldbie Elite, to 400L$ and then the 300L$ of the newbie masses. 😉  This was LONG before I actually went premium.

And if I remember correctly didn't ratings affect Dwell as well?  Dwell was a thing where LL would slightly subsidize land owners with L$ depending on how many visitors they had, it was meant to reward land owners who had content that attracted users.  And of course it was gamed, it was one reason why camping chairs existed, IIRC.

IIRC I got my first L$ from either a camping chair or a money tree before I came to the conclusion that it was a waste of time I'd be better off hitting the buy L$ button..which I have done many many times.  Also camping chairs and money trees.  A camping chair is set up by a land owner, it gave you L$ depending on how long you sat on it, or danced on it or whatever. Miniscule amounts but if you used one for hours every day it added up.  Money trees were trees set up by landowners, often designers.  If you clicked on it, it would give you a random amount of L$, depending on how much it had in it.  Nice people would donate into them to help out newbies with a little L$.  (they were often restricted to newbies)

There were only 15 group slots...for everyone.  FIFTEEN!

Skirt shapes were a thing.  Because the design of the system skirt was bonkers, it made you hippy.  I mean EXTREMELY hippy.  So everyone who wore system skirts had a shape specifically for wearing with system skirts. With prim skirts you usually wore your regular shape.  Also glitch pants were a thing, they matched the color/texture of your skirt because of how skirts worked so it looked more normal.  And only the jacket layer reached the pants layer, if you wore the shirt with pants you'd have a bare midriff, which is why some designers used the jacket layer to create a belt layer.

Makeup was baked into skins, so if a skin maker wanted to have a dozen different lipsticks on say their "Grazia" skin, they had to release a dozen skins.  And don't get me started on eyebrows.

Inviziprims, because of how...."limited" the default foot was (and still is), shoe designers used inviziprims to hide parts of it in their shoes, these were eventually replaced with sculpty shoes with alpha's and so forth.  The "bug" that allowed inviziprims to work was fixed, which is why the feet of avatars wearing old shoes look funny.

Fashion shows were a thing...like the ones they have at RL fashion week. Runways, and SL fashion press.  REALLY!  And there were model agencies that actually had work!

There was no such thing as "official bloggers", except maybe for a couple of designers relationship with Willow Zander, bloggers were somewhat more independent of creators back then.

Who's Willow?  She's the one Willow Packs were named for.  What's a Willow Pack?  What we called "fatpacks" back then, they were named for Willow because she shopped a LOT, and she was basically the Strawberry Singh of her day.

Limited Edition items were a thing.  This is where the designer only created a certain number of an item and then only put so many boxes out to purchase.  The Dazzle LE's were highly desirable because while Dazzle was a popular retailer amongst female avatars, not everyone would have the Limited Edition item.

There was an SL Big Brother event where a bunch of avatars were put into what some of us called "The Habitrail", IIRC residents voted who would be kicked out.

The Starax wand, it was hugely expensive for the time L$10000+, but it was a high-status item to own.  It rezzed things basically, VERY cool things. Sadly, I don't own one.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

Rating...

Which unfortunately was quickly socially subverted since it affected your weekly stipend.

Sounds like a virtual version of the Black Mirror episode Nosedive. 

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I'm old enough to still be getting my lovely 500 stipend, but who can forget the greenies? ( I still have most ) they were the coolest! And the huge slingo (or was it called something else.. my memory sucks) places that were so popular, all the people there would crash the sim every. single. time. And so many silly gestures that sprung from that game, too. I miss the little boutique game places anyone could have anywhere on any parcel. I had a little place on the mainland called the shroom cafe.. til I paid out way more money than I ever made. I guess LL wiped those games out of my inventory during an extended break I took, which makes me kinda sad. Not only did they cost quite a bit, but I'd like to just set one out to play myself sometimes.

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26 minutes ago, CronoCloud Creeggan said:

Fashion shows were a thing...like the ones they have at RL fashion week. Runways, and SL fashion press.  REALLY!  And there were model agencies that actually had work!

I was a store assistant/model...I had no interest in the modelling world beyond it but all my colleagues had and were desperate to "make it" as an SL model so I heard a lot about it. I remember someone telling me that I might be happy "just spinning on a pose stand and helping customers for 50L an hour but I've got more drive and ambition than that." I was totally immersed in SL at the time and I still thought it was all bonkers.

But I am surprised if that world doesn't exist any more? Does it not? It was hugely popular. I would have thought mesh made fashion more interesting?

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32 minutes ago, CronoCloud Creeggan said:

Fashion shows were a thing...like the ones they have at RL fashion week. Runways, and SL fashion press.  REALLY!  And there were model agencies that actually had work!

I remember we used to have weekly 'show and tell', we would come together and show what we created lately, or anything we wanted to show to others. It was good fun.

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Just now, Amina Sopwith said:

 

I was a store assistant/model...I had no interest in the modelling world beyond it but all my colleagues had and were desperate to "make it" as an SL model so I heard a lot about it. I remember someone telling me that I might be happy "just spinning on a pose stand and helping customers for 50L an hour but I've got more drive and ambition than that." I was totally immersed in SL at the time and I still thought it was all bonkers.

But I am surprised if that world doesn't exist any more? Does it not? It was hugely popular. I would have thought mesh made fashion more interesting?

I have a friend who recently entered, more or less on a lark, into the "Miss SL Universe" pageant, or some such nonsense. One reason she got out was her realization that her fellow contestants were taking it waaaaaaaaay too seriously.

I too would be surprised if fashion shows were not a thing anymore. God knows there are enough fashion bloggers.

If anything has killed it, it might simply be that SL fashion these days is remarkably homogeneous and . . . well, bland. I mean, seriously, how many cute little cocktail dresses with thigh high stilettos does a girl need?

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Hey I learned some stuff and that is great! Thanks to all. 

 

For awhile schools were a big thing and very numerous. Partly because Linden Lab paid people to teach classes. 500 lindens per class if I remember correctly.  There were some really good teachers back then -- teachers that had retired as teachers from the corporeal world and had plenty of practice. Some classes were quite complex (how to make a talking bird pet with blinking eyes for example) and others were simple.  There was a bit of gaming the teacher thing going on but not all that much. Most did good jobs.  If I ended up in a painful class, my girlfriend was usually there too --- not planned, we just both went to all the new classes when they appeared.  We would IM though the whole (boring) time and still enjoyed ourselves.

Most teachers gave out full perm textures with the class and those were coveted prizes as then we didn't have to upload and pay the costs. Classes were free back then. Later there were tips and small fees but that didn't last all that long -- then LL stopped supporting learning and only a few schools remained.  Schools and student also increased traffic so some "schols" were actually above shopping malls and  you had to TP in through the mall to get to the classes -- and to read the "coming soon class listings". 

 

I got all my money from camping. The guitar player was my favorite. You would get a spot (NOT easy - you had to check different places often) and then you would SEEM to be playing the guitar. If there was music going on in the background you "seemed" to actually be a performer and not just someone trying to earn a bit of money.   3 lindens for 10 minutes was a typical (and at the top) payment. 2. for 10 not so good and I mostly bypassed those. 

There were also places that had giant camping places where you could stay for hours and earn a fair amount of money while the typist slept. Some places would let you stay for 8 hours. So 18 lindens an hour was 144 lindens.  Certainly not much but it paid for texture uploads and eventually for rent on my little shops. Not really a way to make money, it was the "game within the game" thing.  Once LL took away the advantage of traffic in their search algorithm (or lessened it a lot anyway) camping drizzled out. I didn't know about the other perks to the high traffic count regions, but now I do!

 

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

I got all my money from camping. The guitar player was my favorite. You would get a spot (NOT easy - you had to check different places often) and then you would SEEM to be playing the guitar. If there was music going on in the background you "seemed" to actually be a performer and not just someone trying to earn a bit of money.   3 lindens for 10 minutes was a typical (and at the top) payment. 2. for 10 not so good and I mostly bypassed those.

I know exactly what you're talking about, because I bought one to use at my property back then, because I thought it was the most attractive one too.. I even made it on a stage in the corner with a spotlight on whoever was camping.. I still have it, I don't know if they're even legal now to use. I think I had it set to the 2 per 10, cause I'm cheap, but somehow someone always found it and were camped there pretty much always. I've always only cared about having enough traffic to be findable when searched, just the bottom of the first page even. Never wanted to be top 10 or something. Otherwise nobody ever shows up.

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Money trees were big when I started, so I seldom camped for money - I couldn't be bothered to sit still for long.  Lucky letter chairs were also all the rage, along with groups that would chat the latest letters.  When I wasn't shopping or socializing, I spent my time popping around my favorite money trees and my favorite lucky chair spots.

Probably my most memorable moment though, and one of the things that kept me here, was when I discovered virtual dancing sometime that first week.  I love dancing - I could truly live on a dance floor.  Seeing myself dance here, getting lost in the music and movements (even with the only so-so animations of the time), was just absolute heaven for me.  I'm introverted as hell though, so I also spent quite a bit of time finding dance spots that were empty of other people.  It took me a while to get comfortable dancing in a place with people and actually chatting with folks.

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49 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Money trees were big when I started, so I seldom camped for money - I couldn't be bothered to sit still for long.  Lucky letter chairs were also all the rage, along with groups that would chat the latest letters.  When I wasn't shopping or socializing, I spent my time popping around my favorite money trees and my favorite lucky chair spots.

Probably my most memorable moment though, and one of the things that kept me here, was when I discovered virtual dancing sometime that first week.  I love dancing - I could truly live on a dance floor.  Seeing myself dance here, getting lost in the music and movements (even with the only so-so animations of the time), was just absolute heaven for me.  I'm introverted as hell though, so I also spent quite a bit of time finding dance spots that were empty of other people.  It took me a while to get comfortable dancing in a place with people and actually chatting with folks.

Yes, I loved the Money Trees -- but they were only for avatars under 30 days old (a VERY few had 45 days -- the secondary brand if I remember correctly.

 

There were Wolfhaven trees that came later (they still had those in Opensim when I was there).  If forgot the maker of the original Money Trees, the ones before Wolfhaven. Google can't seem to find any other brand, so maybe that was my imagination.  It looks like Wolfhaven (if it is the same one) is now making breedables. Very little traffic there though. 

 

And your dancing comment reminded me about BULL RIDING!!!!!   LOL.   Whoever stayed riding on the bull the longest won the prize money (usually a lot like 500 lindens). Trying to track down a still in use bull riding place reminded me how really BAD mainland can be LOL.   Good to get a slap in the face now and then.   Anyway that was lots of fun and comraderie and you won fairly often (it was all a chance thing - not skill).  

 

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I remember having all these plans to be somebody in SL. Make a name for myself and be known. Fourteen years later, I'm still a nobody. LL developed this bad habit of yanking the rug out from under me at just the right moment rendering all my hard work (and real money spent) into a waste of time and money. With the recent premium fee hike, they're still doing it. I've resigned myself to remaining a nobody since I just don't have the kind of money it now takes to launch any kind of business in SL.

Oh, I'll still keep building when my 50L stipend builds up enough to be able to afford the needed materials (that should be around this same time next year) but as far as having an inworld store or an MP store... anyone want to share the winning powerball ticket numbers with me? 

sad-puppies-that-will-ruin-your-day-1-58

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8 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I mean, seriously, how many cute little cocktail dresses with thigh high stilettos does a girl need?

Literally thousands. I need new ones daily. Well, maybe not need, but want. I rarely wear things twice. My need for new cocktail dresses is endless. 😋

I still remember the first time I logged into SL. It must've been right after accounts were made free in 2006, I guess. I hadn't heard of SL before that so I have no idea. A friend from another virtual world dragged me into SL. It was SO MUCH MORE COMPLICATED than RLD and I was absolutely overwhelmed. She was so excited that I joined and tried to shove ALL THE KNOWLEDGE into my head in like an hour.

A shape! A skin! Clothes! And AO! And most importantly... XCITE GENITALS! I had no flipping idea how to even walk, much less fit something like those old xcite nips and hoo-has. She gave me a bunch of lindens (like L$1000... hahahahahaha) and took me shopping and told me exactly what to buy and then laughed as I got frustrated trying to make things fit and wear things before I had any idea what was happening.

I logged out and didn't come back for 3-4 months. It was then that I was able to figure it all out on my own and have everything make sense. 

I also remember the first time I hopped on pose balls with a guy. It was in some dark urban-themed region that I've long since forgotten. We barely spoke before the deed, barely spoke during the deed, and never spoke after the deed. I think it was even right in the middle of the street maybe. 

Good times. 

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8 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I have a friend who recently entered, more or less on a lark, into the "Miss SL Universe" pageant, or some such nonsense. One reason she got out was her realization that her fellow contestants were taking it waaaaaaaaay too seriously.

A friend does the pageant scene, suggested I join up as well, but....the pageant girls take it VERRRRRY seriously.  Also the time commitment is whack!  You can be cut from the show for missing a scheduled event/rehearsal/whatever even if it conflicts with RL work.

 

Quote

I too would be surprised if fashion shows were not a thing anymore. God knows there are enough fashion bloggers.

Ha ha ha, everyone and their KittyCat is a fashion blogger these days.  Fashion shows are still rare because designers figured out they were annoying to do, attend (lag), and schedule and they weren't effective as other marketing in SL.

 

Quote

 

If anything has killed it, it might simply be that SL fashion these days is remarkably homogeneous and . . . well, bland. I mean, seriously, how many cute little cocktail dresses with thigh high stilettos does a girl need?

 

How many cute little cocktail dresses do I need?  All of them.  Though yes, it is a bit homogeneous, in part due to templates.

 

5 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

Literally thousands. I need new ones daily. Well, maybe not need, but want. I rarely wear things twice. My need for new cocktail dresses is endless. 😋

Like I said, how many do I need?  All of them.  I wear them a lot for socializing, so I need a lot of them.  Mine are usually a touch longer than most, preferring lower thigh to knee length.  I don't have in-world income so I have limits on the number of cute cocktail dresses I can buy.  CC sadface.

 

Quote

A shape! A skin! Clothes! And AO! And most importantly... XCITE GENITALS! I had no flipping idea how to even walk, much less fit something like those old xcite nips and hoo-has. She gave me a bunch of lindens (like L$1000... hahahahahaha) and took me shopping and told me exactly what to buy and then laughed as I got frustrated trying to make things fit and wear things before I had any idea what was happening.

I had to figure it out myself.  It took me a few days before I found the 2006 era fashion blogs like Second Style and Linden Lifestyles, that helped.  I spent slightly over 170 US$ in my first couple of weeks in SL getting my avatar up to the appearance standards of 2006 fashionistas.

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8 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I have a friend who recently entered, more or less on a lark, into the "Miss SL Universe" pageant, or some such nonsense. One reason she got out was her realization that her fellow contestants were taking it waaaaaaaaay too seriously.

Let's take an inside look shall we?

https://phedrelefevre.wordpress.com/category/phedres-phollies/

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1 hour ago, Selene Gregoire said:

First of all, this is a post from 2012.  Second, CWS never, ever had a good reputation as either a SL modeling academy nor as a SL modeling agency and it's unfortunate that this blogger never asked around before entering the abyss otherwise known as CWS.  

I've been modeling in SL since 2010 and granted there were poorly run agencies/academies (and still are - I won't name names!) but there were many numerous and highly respectable ones too.  AVENUE, Modavia, SCALA, Ferosh, come to mind as a few of the really, really great ones.  SCALA is still around and recently produced a show for a few combined designers.  Ferosh only publishes a fashion magazine a few times a year now both for designers and sometimes a creative issue. https://issuu.com/feroshsl/docs/ferosh_spring_2019_issue  

One of the main reasons agencies/academies died is because of events in SL.  The cost to put on a fashion show back in the day was expensive.  Now designers can keep their overhead low by renting a booth at an event and make far more money than they can at a fashion show.  Not only that, but the exposure at an event is by far much more broader than it was at a fashion show which was really only attended by the folks in the modeling community.  While this scenario accounts for the demise of many agencies/academies, places like CWS closed because of lousy business practices and mismanagement.

I will agree that many people who enter competitions take it very seriously.  They want to win.  They want to win a title.  The title is more important than winning.  That hasn't changed in the 9 years I've been a SL model and that is why I only ever entered a contest once.  I never considered myself the beauty pageant type but I had entered because a friend dared me.  I didn't win.  I moved on.  Now I mainly blog and contribute to a few SL fashion magazines such as Ferosh and VersuS as a stylist and photographer.  I also still teach aspiring models how to blog whenever an agency asks if I'd be interested in teaching the course.  

Say what you will about modeling in SL but what you can't take away from any of us was the friendships we made and still nurture after all these years.  Back in the day, it was fun and inspiring to be a SL model and I won't ever forget when it was at its peak.  To sit back, read this article and then judge it as the end all, be all for all things SL modeling, isn't the same as having actually been involved and knowing about it firsthand.

VersuS: https://issuu.com/versus.sl.magazine/docs/versus_magazine_fall_winter_2018

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Linda Reddevil said:

First of all, this is a post from 2012.  Second, CWS never, ever had a good reputation as either a SL modeling academy nor as a SL modeling agency and it's unfortunate that this blogger never asked around before entering the abyss otherwise known as CWS.  

I've been modeling in SL since 2010 and granted there were poorly run agencies/academies (and still are - I won't name names!) but there were many numerous and highly respectable ones too.  AVENUE, Modavia, SCALA, Ferosh, come to mind as a few of the really, really great ones.  SCALA is still around and recently produced a show for a few combined designers.  Ferosh only publishes a fashion magazine a few times a year now both for designers and sometimes a creative issue. https://issuu.com/feroshsl/docs/ferosh_spring_2019_issue  

One of the main reasons agencies/academies died is because of events in SL.  The cost to put on a fashion show back in the day was expensive.  Now designers can keep their overhead low by renting a booth at an event and make far more money than they can at a fashion show.  Not only that, but the exposure at an event is by far much more broader than it was at a fashion show which was really only attended by the folks in the modeling community.  While this scenario accounts for the demise of many agencies/academies, places like CWS closed because of lousy business practices and mismanagement.

I will agree that many people who enter competitions take it very seriously.  They want to win.  They want to win a title.  The title is more important than winning.  That hasn't changed in the 9 years I've been a SL model and that is why I only ever entered a contest once.  I never considered myself the beauty pageant type but I had entered because a friend dared me.  I didn't win.  I moved on.  Now I mainly blog and contribute to a few SL fashion magazines such as Ferosh and VersuS as a stylist and photographer.  I also still teach aspiring models how to blog whenever an agency asks if I'd be interested in teaching the course.  

Say what you will about modeling in SL but what you can't take away from any of us was the friendships we made and still nurture after all these years.  Back in the day, it was fun and inspiring to be a SL model and I won't ever forget when it was at its peak.  To sit back, read this article and then judge it as the end all, be all for all things SL modeling, isn't the same as having actually been involved and knowing about it firsthand.

VersuS: https://issuu.com/versus.sl.magazine/docs/versus_magazine_fall_winter_2018

Umm... I know when it's from. It's my modeling account's WordPress. In other words, it's mine. It was my experience, not some stranger's. Phedre is one of my alts.

ETA: AH. I did miss the part about CWS shutting down. That is good news. Thanks for that.

Edited by Selene Gregoire
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14 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

ETA: AH. I did miss the part about CWS shutting down. That is good news. Thanks for that.

They've been shut down for many, many years.  Again, it's unfortunate you were left thinking that all modeling in SL was how you experienced things at CWS.  

21 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

It's my modeling account's WordPress. In other words, it's mine. It was my experience, not some stranger's. Phedre is one of my alts.

I wouldn't have known this (or maybe I should have?? 🙄).

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Linda Reddevil said:

 

They've been shut down for many, many years.  Again, it's unfortunate you were left thinking that all modeling in SL was how you experienced things at CWS.  

I wouldn't have known this (or maybe I should have?? 🙄).

If you had read what few other posts there are you would have seen that I didn't let my CWS experience stop me. I moved on and was working the runways in both SL and InWorldz for a quite while before there were deaths in the family in RL and the adhesive capsulitis set in, in my left shoulder. I couldn't even hold a pen for months. Lifting my arm to type was out of the question.

It's been no secret for many years that Phedre is my alt. That was known on the FS support team and in the group which is quite large so while it may not be common knowledge, I have posted links to my blog and some of the images from it on the forums fairly recently. Granted, no one reads all the posts, but I didn't think about mentioning it until you posted about it. Sorry about that. 

LOL Kind of backs up what I said about being a nobody in SL. xD

Edited by Selene Gregoire
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5 hours ago, Sylvia Tamalyn said:

Two words: Sion chicken.

Oh wow. I'd forgotten.

I never collected Sion Chickens, but I had a few friends who were fanatical about them, and asked me to make them chicken coops for their collections. So I ended up doing a minor line in chicken enclosures and coops. I didn't sell them -- they weren't particularly interesting -- but I did end up giving away quite a few. At one point, I rezzed a giant one, and I and some friends had a dance party inside. (No, we didn't wear chicken avatars, but probably should have.)

Chicken-Coop-Blank.thumb.png.7ffe5a2a76994230b150d8bae2ad6e54.png

I also ended up spending an inordinate amount of time feeding the chickens of friends who couldn't make it online for whatever reason, and collecting them when some idiot left the enclosure door open (one of these was on a public sim). I really should have added a locking script to the doors . . .

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3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Oh wow. I'd forgotten.

I never collected Sion Chickens, but I had a few friends who were fanatical about them, and asked me to make them chicken coops for their collections. So I ended up doing a minor line in chicken enclosures and coops. I didn't sell them -- they weren't particularly interesting -- but I did end up giving away quite a few. At one point, I rezzed a giant one, and I and some friends had a dance party inside. (No, we didn't wear chicken avatars, but probably should have.)

I had thought the chickens were long gone, but I saw some within the past year when I was exploring Caledon. Someone had a bunch of them wandering around, and now I'm wondering if you made their coop!

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2 minutes ago, Sylvia Tamalyn said:

I had thought the chickens were long gone, but I saw some within the past year when I was exploring Caledon. Someone had a bunch of them wandering around, and now I'm wondering if you made their coop!

Lol, really? They were a bit like a virus; really, really hard to stamp out. And wow, they must be little walking, clucking lag bombs these days!

I suppose it's possible that there are still some of my delightfully primitive coops floating around. It would be nice to think that I've achieved SL Immortality in some fashion . . . even if it's only through keeping those little sculptie vermin from wondering off too far.

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Ghosting. When you'd crash, except your avatar would stay inworld and you couldn't log back in. If you had another account, you could go visit and say hello to your other self standing there.

You had to write a ticket and wait to get properly logged out, though there was a trick to use. It had something to do with the system checking something every 14 minutes or something strange like that.

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