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Posted (edited)

Alright, lets talk about Bellisseria roads and road vehicles for a second.

We all have seen nicely done boat rez zones conveniently placed around the continent. They all have reazonable space and are clearly marked to let everyone know you can rez your water vehicle there. We have also seen couple air strips appearing in the area, each one with their own dedicated rez zone for aircrafts (not clearly maked but atleast they are there), but lets talk about Road vehicles and road rez zones...

Bellisseria has a problem with road vehicles rez zones.

Current road rez zones seems to be placeholder or temporary solutions. They are all currenly found on undeveloped regions arround the developed areas, nothing in between. They are also lacking any kind of marking to let people know of their existance. Newly developed areas seems to also not take vehicle rez zones in consideration as there is none to be found to the date of this post. I am personally hoping that these rez zones has their own space on the developers list of things to have as road vehicles are certainly important when the continent has so much space dedicated to roads alone, and a large community with big interest for road vehicles. Let's make sure they are not forgotten shall we?

Is not lag, or your bad driving... the roads are actually broken.

Maybe you have noticed that driving around Bellisseria is not exactly a smooth experience. You are not crazy... roads has some issues you can't really see. Bellisseria roads seems to be the first road by the LDPW made out of mesh pieces and they aren't exactly perfect. After some driving, I noticed my vehicles were pretty bouncy, specially on curves. I also had many issues with my vehicles simply refusing to move, randomly, in some areas.. just revving the engine without moving. Upon closer inspection I realized that the road custom colission shapes had various problems that caused various types of issues with the vehicles. These problems has been properly reported and we hope to see them fixed soon. More on that: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-227210

Bellisseria is a great place to take a drive!

The continent is without doubt one of the top mainland areas to take a scenic drive. Let's support improvements like these to help polish that experience!

Edited by Seba Serpente
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I hadn't noticed that. But I made my bikes so robust that they shrug off minor road problems.

I rezzed one of the free GTFO vehicles, the "Benzz K7 GTFO Offer", and it cannot cross onto a "LH - Traditional Road - Curve 2/4 Section" which is a convex hulled object that includes both curbs, sidewalks, and road. The physics model is at curb height across the road, and that vehicle gets totally stuck. Setting that to "convex hull" mode was wrong, because it's concave, and it matters for that object.

I would expect a bump, but the vehicle should not get totally stuck.

benzsledprim.thumb.jpg.23c1c9ce259e234cae8bef78266f5427.jpg

Front end of the test vehicle. I've made the "sled" prim the vehicle rides on visible. (All SL ground vehicles really slide; they don't roll. Rolling is an illusion builders work to create.) This is a much steeper front end than I use on my bikes; they have a flattened convex mesh ellipsoid supporting them, and that will slide across almost anything. But this should work. It will, in fact, go over curbs the same height as the trouble spot.

uncrossablemeshcube2.jpg.3231c35f103610bded8c40ff6bcbcc33.jpg

On the left, a prim cube, resized. On the right, a mesh cube, resized. Same dimensions.

This vehicle can drive over the prim cube, with a bump, but gets stuck trying to drive over the mesh cube. Doesn't matter whether the mesh cube is set to "prim" or "object" mode. That's unexpected. Not clear why yet.

 

 

 

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When mesh roads first came out I had huge problems with some bikes that worked fine on prim roads. I seem to recall the problem in part being due to the hip height on the animation in relation to the route prim and the bounding box of the avatar.

But making mesh road seems a bit of an art, Katyproxima is or was the only person to have really mastered it.... Why her roads are so common on biking sims. There can be 6 inch or more height difference at the joins and they will still ride smoothly. With prim or other mesh roads any builder will tell you no matter how precise sometimes it is impossible to get rid of annoying bumps. 

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I have travelled around Bellisseria in different vehicles.  I have a Dust bunny colab with Con., that takes the roads with no issues.  It's wearable and drives perfectly.  I take one of my cars out, that are not wearable but separate, and all hell breaks loose on curves, hills and turns.  There is also a rounabout that is a huge issue, where you have to put your car in edit, in order to get through that area.  I have no clue what is blocking the road but there is a blockage in that one near my home.

@animats where did you get the Benzz K7 GTFO Offer?  I would love that car!

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6 hours ago, animats said:

I hadn't noticed that. But I made my bikes so robust that they shrug off minor road problems.

I rezzed one of the free GTFO vehicles, the "Benzz K7 GTFO Offer", and it cannot cross onto a "LH - Traditional Road - Curve 2/4 Section" which is a convex hulled object that includes both curbs, sidewalks, and road. The physics model is at curb height across the road, and that vehicle gets totally stuck. Setting that to "convex hull" mode was wrong, because it's concave, and it matters for that object.

I would expect a bump, but the vehicle should not get totally stuck.

benzsledprim.thumb.jpg.23c1c9ce259e234cae8bef78266f5427.jpg

Front end of the test vehicle. I've made the "sled" prim the vehicle rides on visible. (All SL ground vehicles really slide; they don't roll. Rolling is an illusion builders work to create.) This is a much steeper front end than I use on my bikes; they have a flattened convex mesh ellipsoid supporting them, and that will slide across almost anything. But this should work. It will, in fact, go over curbs the same height as the trouble spot.

uncrossablemeshcube2.jpg.3231c35f103610bded8c40ff6bcbcc33.jpg

On the left, a prim cube, resized. On the right, a mesh cube, resized. Same dimensions.

This vehicle can drive over the prim cube, with a bump, but gets stuck trying to drive over the mesh cube. Doesn't matter whether the mesh cube is set to "prim" or "object" mode. That's unexpected. Not clear why yet.

 

 

 

Luckilly the new viewer built-in feature that allows us to see the colission shape does wonders to notice these kind of things. I havent had problems with the straight sections of roads and the angles with them but mesh do seem to be less forgiving on gaps and minor diferences in height between pieces.

 

I can agree that some vehicles are not done with ideal colission shapes to drive smoothly, as general rule vehicles needs some kind of sled or rounded shapes to be able to overcome obstacles. However, the bugs on these pieces in most cases won't be solved with linking ramps under the vehicle, there is more into it including problems with Raycast detection.

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6 hours ago, Aethelwine said:

When mesh roads first came out I had huge problems with some bikes that worked fine on prim roads. I seem to recall the problem in part being due to the hip height on the animation in relation to the route prim and the bounding box of the avatar.

But making mesh road seems a bit of an art, Katyproxima is or was the only person to have really mastered it.... Why her roads are so common on biking sims. There can be 6 inch or more height difference at the joins and they will still ride smoothly. With prim or other mesh roads any builder will tell you no matter how precise sometimes it is impossible to get rid of annoying bumps. 

It is well pausible to fix. It does takes more effort than placing prim roads for sure.

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6 hours ago, Vega Firelyte said:

I have travelled around Bellisseria in different vehicles.  I have a Dust bunny colab with Con., that takes the roads with no issues.  It's wearable and drives perfectly.  I take one of my cars out, that are not wearable but separate, and all hell breaks loose on curves, hills and turns.  There is also a rounabout that is a huge issue, where you have to put your car in edit, in order to get through that area.  I have no clue what is blocking the road but there is a blockage in that one near my home.

@animats where did you get the Benzz K7 GTFO Offer?  I would love that car!

Wearables arent really vehicles, they are more a clothing pice than anything. They don't interact with the road in any way,  as you are basicly just walking around all this time. However, this has been an extremely popular option around.

Your problem with the roundabouts has to do with your car not detecting the road piece uder and thinking is flying (vehicle raycast fails to detect road colission). This makes the vehicle stop moving, waiting to be back on ground to resume movement. Cars stop moving when they jump so they can go back to the ground fast and in a controlled way. If they dont stop moving they would basicly move in the air like planes.

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UPDATE:

The moles has reacted and the aircraft rez zones has been properly identified. Thank you!

One thing done, some more to go.

10a6b28bdbb5f0cacd9f5599b2cf7808.jpg

ad1496f4c613c1c661d2a081a35e0570.jpg

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4 minutes ago, Seba Serpente said:

UPDATE:

The moles has reacted and the aircraft rez zones has been properly identified. Thank you!

One thing done, some more to go.

10a6b28bdbb5f0cacd9f5599b2cf7808.jpg

ad1496f4c613c1c661d2a081a35e0570.jpg

I'm gonna rez a car in the aircraft rez zone just to be a rebel🤣

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UPDATE:

An "automobile rez zone" has also appeared for the first time on the currenly being worked on areas in the center of Bellisseria. It has a pretty nice size too for vehicle gatherings, well done! The rest of the temporary rez zones are still untouched, would guess due to them being that, temporary. We will likely see some more official  automobile rezzing areas popping up as the project grows, some good news for sure. Thank you to the moles, and Patch, once again!  Here is this first Automobile Rez Zone: http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/SSPE138/164/214/23

Regarding the road pieces bugs: There is nothing I can find related to the road pieces fix, they are all still the bug ones. For the first time thanks to this new rez zone, I was able to try to rez something over these bugged pieces, and as expected, you can't rez anything over them, objects goes straight under the road, confirming again the defects. If the plan is to use these roundabouts as rez areas, I highly recommend to fix these pieces collission shape to enable users to properly rez vehicles over them. Will keep posted if I find any progress on this issue.

9c7663ee0c2114ac9da1ff083c46bd85.jpg

c48146784c8e9717fb597ada239fb62a.jpg

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Posted (edited)

Trying to rez a prim over a broken curve piece: 03e29e071fd6561731363eae4d4531b8.gif

Edited by Seba Serpente
Gif failed to upload.

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I really hope they're worrying far more about building new homes than futzing with the roads at this point. Maybe further down the road... 

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

I really hope they're worrying far more about building new homes than futzing with the roads at this point. Maybe further down the road... 

That is a pretty ignorant way to look at it. Moles are contractors and they get paid by the hour. Ideally, their time should be efficiently managed, no matter the desire of the public. Using broken objects across a large project and not fixing it soon enough leads to even more time invested on fixing it later. If is fixed now, and they use fixed objects after this point of time, the only required work would be fix whatever is already done before this time, not the whole project. It is a substantial difference.

Edited by Seba Serpente

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17 minutes ago, Seba Serpente said:

That is a pretty ignorant way to look at it. Moles are contractors and they get paid by the hour. Ideally, their time should be efficiently managed, no matter the desire of the public. Using broken objects across a large project and not fixing it soon enough leads to even more time invested on fixing it later. If is fixed now, and they use fixed objects after this point of time, the only required work would be fix whatever is already done before this time, not the whole project. It is a substantial difference.

You are not going to sway people to your point of view using loaded words like "ignorant". I happen to agree with @Beth Macbain. The new priority should be building homes as long as there are still so many residents waiting for one. You can wait in line behind them for your road tweaks.

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1 minute ago, Sylvia Tamalyn said:

You are not going to sway people to your point of view using loaded words like "ignorant". I happen to agree with @Beth Macbain. The new priority should be building homes as long as there are still so many residents waiting for one. You can wait in line behind them for your road tweaks.

Big difference between a tweak and a bug.

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20 minutes ago, Seba Serpente said:

That is a pretty ignorant way to look at it. Moles are contractors and they get paid by the hour. Ideally, their time should be efficiently managed, no matter the desire of the public. Using broken objects across a large project and not fixing it soon enough leads to even more time invested on fixing it later. If is fixed now, and they use fixed objects after this point of time, the only required work would be fix whatever is already done before this time, not the whole project. It is a substantial difference.

Oooooooh... I remember you now! You were the guy that was trying so hard to find a loophole so you could advertise your whatever at SL16B!

You're one of those guys. 

Have fun with that. 

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3 minutes ago, Seba Serpente said:

Big difference between a tweak and a bug.

Perhaps, but that doesn't change the point that the priority must be getting homes to residents. No one but you is demanding that they fix the roads this minute.

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Just now, Sylvia Tamalyn said:

Perhaps, but that doesn't change the point that the priority must be getting homes to residents. No one but you is demanding that they fix the roads this minute.

Simply not a fan boy looking blindly at the possitive things. I do am glad Patch and his team are doing so much great work, but, in the real world negative things also has to be pointed out and adressed. Is not all just giving houses to people, there is much more into it.

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Just now, Seba Serpente said:

Simply not a fan boy looking blindly at the possitive things. I do am glad Patch and his team are doing so much great work, but, in the real world negative things also has to be pointed out and adressed. Is not all just giving houses to people, there is much more into it.

See, there you go with the not-so-veiled insults toward others again. You are not winning anyone over to your way of thinking here. File a bug report and move on.

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Just now, Sylvia Tamalyn said:

See, there you go with the not-so-veiled insults toward others again. You are not winning anyone over to your way of thinking here. File a bug report and move on.

I certainly not aim to be miss popularity. My intentions here are to get things done.

You can follow the Jira if you want: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-227210

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, Seba Serpente said:

UPDATE:

An "automobile rez zone" has also appeared for the first time on the currenly being worked on areas in the center of Bellisseria....Thank you to the moles, and Patch, once again!  Here is this first Automobile Rez Zone: http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/SSPE138/164/214/23

 

c48146784c8e9717fb597ada239fb62a.jpg

Thanks for this, great!

Big thanks to LL too for listening to our requests for vehicle rezz zones inland. Wonderful!! I hope there will be more! I was able to rezz my little bug car here and had  good fun driving around exploring the new regions. 

Quote

Maybe you have noticed that driving around Bellisseria is not exactly a smooth experience... After some driving, I noticed my vehicles were pretty bouncy, specially on curves. I also had many issues with my vehicles simply refusing to move, randomly, in some areas..

I'd have to say I agree with that. The roads were very bouncy, like having lots of potholes:) But I managed to get around without crashing into too many lamp posts!:)

Edited by Evangeline Arcadia

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Posted (edited)

I can confirm that some of the (temporary) rez zones could use an extra prim where the rezzing part is. I am standing in the large rez area in this shot and "I" cannot get over the edge of the road to get on the road in any of my (yes free) vehicles.  I would suspect those that have no issues have cars with better scripting, physics etc.  So that is part of the problem.  

 

OTHER rez zones work fine (those that are in the middle of roadways and not on grass that abut roadways. 

 

The other is issue of course the TEMPORARY part of the equation.  In the case of this photo SSPE83 APPEARS (no confirmation) to be a gateway to the new trailer area (or one of the areas); this from the work area map on SSP. So This road will (again likely) turn into a dirt road in some way when the campgrounds arrive in a couple of months. Hence problem solved. 

 

Meanwhile the easiest solution would just be to landmark a car rez zone that doesn't have this issue. Me? I just drive around on the grass and eventually get onto the road.  

 

And harping at the Moles doesn't make much sense as I suspect they get their work orders from higher up on the food chain. 

 

image.thumb.png.e88dcb535704b0381af3fb7d7c3ec6d0.png

Edited by Chic Aeon

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1 minute ago, Chic Aeon said:

I can confirm that some of the (temporary) rez zones could use an extra prim where the rezzing part is. I am standing in the large rez area in this shot and "I" cannot get over the edge of the road to get on the road in any of my (yes free) vehicles.  I would suspect those that have no issues have cars with better scripting, physics etc.  So that is part of the problem.  

 

OTHER rez zones work fine (those that are in the middle of roadways and not on grass that abut roadways. 

 

The other is issue of course the TEMPORARY part of the equation.  In the case of this photo SSPE83 APPEARS (no confirmation) to be a gateway to the new trailer area (or one of the areas); this from the work area map on SSP. So This road will (again likely) turn into a dirt road in some way when the campgrounds arrive in a couple of months. Hence problem solved. 

 

Meanwhile the easiest solution would just be to landmark a car rez zone that doesn't have this issue. Me? I just drive around on the grass and eventually get onto the road.  

 

And harping at the Moles doesn't make much sense as I suspect they get their work orders from higher up on the food chain. 

 

image.thumb.png.e88dcb535704b0381af3fb7d7c3ec6d0.png

Many reports seems to come from free vehicles but others has also confirmed that it also happens with more expensive and "fancy" vehicles, just that they have a different problem with this (raycast fails to detect road surface), wich is their script stopping them from moving rather than the road phisical obstacle. That same raycast problem is linked also to the problem of being unable to rez over these road pieces, I beleive the system, internally, does a similar process to rez your things.

 

But yes, is great that they did addressed the first point on this post, rather fast in fact! They do listen and work on issues.

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UPDATE:

Patch just mentioned during the Meet the Moles that the problem with the road collission has been confirmed and has just recently been fixed on a first step (which is to create the fixed parts I will assume). I can confirm the Jira report has been accepted and closed. No information on what would be the next actions taken and when.

I can just guess that the roads to be placed on infrastructure from this point forward would include the fix, but the previously and already set roads won't be fixed until later time, which to me is understandable and seems to be a similar plan on another unrelated issue I am aware of, that also has been fixed on recent work but has stayed the same on previous for now.

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Follow up:

Roads has been set on 3 new regions, no road fix still in sight despite what was said by Patch.

Curious enough, I found another "bug" with one of the tools they are using to build the regions. That was fixed right away...

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