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I do think  they also should do more for the  disabled ,as i know a few in sl  that have  MS , and other disabilities .  I know they  do the relay for life but   i know from  personal real life  that  doing chemo infusions and secondlife at the same time takes your mind  off the chemo  and  also  if you are the caregiver   as the  loved one family member  getting infusions   and you are on line and  sharing  with them  what you are building decorating or at a music  venue it does have a positive  affect , unless  you keep getting the darn you got loged out 

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5 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

The whole point of Second Life is that it has something for everyone...from virtual romance/sex to sinking battleships.  With that range of possibility, there is no way that ANY come-on ad is going to satisfy everyone.

^ This. I think it's going to be extremely hard to market SL to basically anyone who doesn't know about it because there is so much to do here, and from all that you'd really struggle to break every aspect down into a clear, concise, informative, and up-to-date way that also fits coherently on the main page and caters for all tastes and demographics.

Let's face it, SL is a player-driven world. It's different things for different people. Your world, your imagination. Some people have bigger imaginations than others. Some need a guiding hand. Some just want to be entertained with no effort at all. How do you collectively cater for everyone even at that level? Where do you start? Who decides what's relevant? Who decides how it's presented? (Bear in mind that old thing about not being able to please everyone all the same time).

Speaking of starting; SL can be a steep learning curve getting used to the viewer and controls, on top of the chat, managing avatar appearance, and attachments, monitoring scripts, reducing lag, managing groups and friends lists, adhering to land ratings and the ToS, etc. Does the website really need to be the same? Breaking it down to a few main points is better than completely overwhelming, and still better than a completely blank slate too. If people are genuinely curious they'll venture in, but one of the best means of marketing has always been, and always will be, word of mouth. And positive word of mouth, not constant criticisms (though constructive criticisms can bring about positive changes, absolutely).

Yes there's always room for improvement but to be honest the website bore no influence whatsoever on my decision to join. I barely looked at it. I read reviews instead. I looked elsewhere, and then decided to take the plunge and join. But that's because I joined for a purpose, which was then role play. The rest I learned in my time here, and that's kind of the point. Yes, the website could do a lot more, and does in part feel a little dated, but I think if you overload it with too much information it could also do more harm than good too; for exactly the same reasons stated in my opening paragraph, and the reason many people don't paragraph role play, or won't even bother reading this post or other posts that they consider to be walls of text, because in this age of instant information, instant gratification, and instant networking via social media... (see the next line). 

TL;DR: people are lazy.

(And I'd be surprised if many people read the rest as opposed to skim it which just proves the point; we're all looking for a quick fix now. And the website should be no different).

================================================

 

On 6/21/2019 at 5:56 PM, CoffeeDujour said:

SL is for the vast majority none of those things. It's raw naked consumerism with as hefty side of social interaction

This too is personal opinion. To someone who simply logs into SL to have pixel sex with their freenis, SL is just virtual sex and money has nothing to do with it. Again, it comes down to what someone wants to do in SL and the options available to them. Sure consumerism is big, but it's not relevant to everyone. Maybe its the raw naked part that needs to be advertised to get more members through the door ;)  (though we know LL are loathe to do that).

 

On 6/21/2019 at 5:56 PM, CoffeeDujour said:

Land is just a necessity. All these shoppers need someplace to put the stuff they buy. So we all play dress up and decorate. Some people make homes, others make social places, but really it's all the same deal .. a little bit of building, and a lot of shopping for things to pick and place.

Land is not a necessity, but great to have. Or should I say, not everyone needs to own some in order to enjoy SL. There's plenty of sandboxes and Linden Land around to publicly change or unpack. Shopping can be done on the MP without the need to see items. Yes its good to have a place to store said items, but the frugal can do this in their Linden Homes, completely bypassing real estate beyond that. Perhaps the only place real estate is most useful is as Role play as environments that can be interacted with but since RP can and does also take place in IMs too its not a requirement. Giving people the option is great but I wouldn't recommend anyone get land if they're just starting out. New players are already overburdened with information, the real estate process is confusing at best even for those of us who have been here a while. LL needs to explain the rules better; condense the information from the player's Dashboard and simplify the process. Explain tier, initial region or parcel costs etc all in the one place and then list destinations where land could be sought, both Linden owned and private. Also include land auctions here for ease of accessibility.

 

On 6/21/2019 at 5:56 PM, CoffeeDujour said:
  • Creative takes you to that now infamous picture of someone building a car from parts not made in SL. Creativity in SL was a selling point when creativity could be done in SL. Make stuff in Maya (ha!) or Blender and upload it is really not the same.

This part I do agree with - to a degree. But to say all creativity predominantly exists in 3rd party programs is wrong. Sure there is fantastic items being made in Blender, but hang around in some of the building regions like Builders Brewery some time and you'll see that there's still a lot of people creating the old fashioned way. If anything perhaps the Creativity section should be linking to building groups or regions in world as a starting point with less emphasis on the Blender and Maya made items. But that said, that is where that raw naked consumerism you mentioned lays; the more people that buy it, the greater the demand - and lets face it, a great percentage of us are wearing Resident-made mesh avatar, hair and clothes these days. To not display Blender or Maya made items would in itself make the website look dated so you're kind of damned either way.

 

On 6/21/2019 at 5:56 PM, CoffeeDujour said:
  • Education is not a headline thing. It's never been a thing. Stop trying to make it a thing.

Even I remember the University lectures taking place back when I was a noob. Maybe its not as prevalent as it used to be, but maybe its because I'm not looking for it either. One of my most poignant memories of SL is taking part in an online study and experiment into Schizophrenia back when I first started my RL job as a disability support worker. The in-world visual and auditory experience was far more beneficial than just reading words on a screen. In short, education will always have a place in SL while there are people willing to teach here. Its a shame more don't utilise it.

 

On 6/21/2019 at 5:56 PM, CoffeeDujour said:

But it's entertainment where the fun really starts.

Music takes you to a picture of two avatars presumably on stage, you can't tell as the picture only captures them from neck to kneecaps. Oh wow, I sure wish I was there with that guys open shirt and glitch hand. Why is there not a picture of a lot of avatars in a club or something. Main focus is to dump people on the destination guide .. 

Agreed in that there needs to be some update done to this section. If SL is truly a player-made universe with a great percentage on connectivity then making these places relevant and appealing to the general audience is key. But this goes all the way back to the initial start of my post; while it could be updated (and should be) who decides what belongs here? With such a vast array of destinations to choose from, just trying to maintain that list alone seems like more than a full-time job and you're still not going to please everyone anyway.

 

On 6/21/2019 at 5:56 PM, CoffeeDujour said:

Roleplay ... *exasperated wailing sounds*

The picture is dated but even a pretty picture isn't necessarily going to pull everyone in. The destinations on offer seem to be the most popular according to traffic not taking into account bots, or even RP-ability (meaning a lot are just OOC hangouts that would be RP places if enough people spoke in local chat as opposed to IMs). They're also pretty eclectic, and hit-and-miss at best. I don't even know how this could be saved, only because I'm so jaded with RP in SL in general. Part of me wants to suggest a greater variety here; not just places but classes too (yes, education!) on role play as I know they are regularly offered on many regions. This would be of more use to those who are perhaps interested in the subject but have no idea how to start (thus drawing more potential numbers) as opposed to letting folks wander to other games/online communities or dropping them in empty regions and expecting them to learn as they go. LL should overhaul yes, but not dumb it down to a point they scare seasoned role players away either.

 

On 6/21/2019 at 5:56 PM, CoffeeDujour said:

Games is just a zero effort literal link to the destination guide.

I've yet to play a game in SL that was actually a game. It's mostly casinos that aren't really casinos, which almost skates a fine line considering gambling is against the ToS. I'm not even sure what this is a "thing" for. Perhaps to draw people in from other platforms and get them in the door. Or to give SL a kind of purpose or meaning. I really don't see the point of this. The Linden made games, especially the Madpea hunts would be perfectly suited for this; as actual advertisements as opposed to more landmarks in a destination guide.

 

On 6/21/2019 at 5:56 PM, CoffeeDujour said:

Romance opens with a great picture, really really emotive... BOOM ...... and then wastes it by offering destination guide links to a few very bland, very old social locations, that may have "romance" as a keyword.

This is where things get tricky. LL doesn't want to admit to the sex-side of SL though we all know it's there and popular. Romance is a draw-card. The fact the website dumps people in the destination guide is kind of a good thing and also bad. Good because if they're keen enough they'll eventually find a place with other avatars who will offer their own crash course on adult activities, sorry "romance". Bad for exactly the same reason. A majority of adult places are ugly, crammed with dated noob avatars looking for quick thrills. Those looking for actual romance are likely going to struggle, and since romance and adult/explicit-themes are sometimes interchangeable there's room for disappointment. On the flip side, should SL admit to or advertise any aspect to adult activities in the same vein as romance, they are likely to lose some potential players who already suspect SL is a den of inequity anyway. 

 

On 6/21/2019 at 5:56 PM, CoffeeDujour said:

And then we get to fashion .. and you get this. Whatever and whoever this is supposed to attract is beyond me. No one is dressing like this. No one is buying this. No one wants to join SL so they can wear their hair backwards, dressed in a bin bag with a dish cloth.

Wrong. Some people do. Look on Flickr, for starters. And without splitting hairs (pun intended), I think you're missing the point that it shows people can dress or appear however they want, be it outlandish, cutting edge, trailer trash, individual, whatever. If they advertised every single style or every fashionable stereotype people would call SL dated on that too. 

 

On 6/21/2019 at 5:56 PM, CoffeeDujour said:

Wow look, that's a lot of people all fighting over each other on 5 cloned regions with 10 more as overflow .. I wonder what they could be doing?

They're helping keep SL alive; if the economy is the only thing driving SL, of course. Isn't all that traffic better than 5 more dead or empty regions?

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On 6/21/2019 at 2:15 AM, Theresa Tennyson said:

Second Life at its height has never had concurrency greater than that of Topeka, Kansas. When it was at its highest the system was threatening to tip over under the load. Meanwhile today, with average concurrency around half of its peak, there are still regions that regularly are unable to support all the people who want to go there for certain occasions.

Second Life is a tiny niche and can't be anything else with the current technology.

Yes. Draw a crowd in SL and the sim overloads. This is a severe limitation on SL.

I think it's technically possible to fix that within the current architecture, but it's a bigger job than the current dev team can tackle. And once it worked, you'd need multiple CPUs per sim, running up server costs.

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1 hour ago, animats said:

Yes. Draw a crowd in SL and the sim overloads. This is a severe limitation on SL.

I think it's technically possible to fix that within the current architecture, but it's a bigger job than the current dev team can tackle. And once it worked, you'd need multiple CPUs per sim, running up server costs.

I don't think I'd fix it that way, at least not for very large gatherings such as concerts. It's still a big job, but rather than trying to scale up the number of full-fledged agents that can be present in a crowd, I'd shed bits of what an agent exposes to the whole group -- not just rendering complexity but also updates and (especially) animations.

When we're in a large RL gathering, we really don't want to see or hear from more of the audience than maybe our immediate neighbors or "the friend what brought us" anyway, so there's a virtue to be made of this necessity: built-in crowd control. A sort of Level of Detail in overall dynamic avatar representation as a function of crowd size and distance.

The abundance of attached scripts, however, poses a challenge to this enforced simplification approach. To work for anybody, even just the immediate wearer, scripts sometimes interact with the simulated environment, and that's an architectural scaling problem bigger than can be addressed with more compute power. In contrast, it should be tractable to expose just enough environment for audience avatars to observe and operate locally, and simply reject any attempt by those avatars to affect the simulation. I guess one option would be to truly disable attached scripts in crowds, or somehow nerf all side effects.

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3 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

A sort of Level of Detail in overall dynamic avatar representation as a function of crowd size and distance.

That's working now in the viewer. In Preferences, set "Number of non-impostor avatars" to about 3. The viewer will no longer choke on large numbers of avatars. The sim still will.

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6 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

Hey, I sort of take exception to the OP's opinion that "education isn't a thing in SL."  I mean, having been a teacher in RL, and having been a teacher in SL almost back to my beginnings twelve years ago and all.  And the annual best practices for virtual world educators conference.  And places like Caledon Oxbridge University, New Resident Island, The Ivory Tower Library of Primitives, etc.  Not to mention that several RL colleges and universities maintain a presence in SL.

The whole point of Second Life is that it has something for everyone...from virtual romance/sex to sinking battleships.  With that range of possibility, there is no way that ANY come-on ad is going to satisfy everyone.

My point isn't "NO EDUCATION EVER" .. just not to try and sell the entire platform based on the premise that education is a thing a notable percentage of people participate in. It's simply not. Yes, there are educational locations and institutions scattered about, but they are an exception. Go though the destination guide and look up educational locations, the total population of everywhere combined would fit on a single region. That's 1/10th of a percent of the active population.

As with the fashion, you can't sell a service with broad appeal by targeting a statistically insignificant (yet enthusiastic) niche.

Get people in the door and education will happen organically especially if the incentives offered are more broadly accessible

 

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1 hour ago, animats said:

That's working now in the viewer. In Preferences, set "Number of non-impostor avatars" to about 3. The viewer will no longer choke on large numbers of avatars. The sim still will.

Yes that's right. That's why I said "sort of" and "overall dynamic avatar representation" and "not just rendering complexity." I mean the simulation itself, minimizing propagation of individual avatar effects such that simulation complexity increases at most logarithmically with avatar count, instead of combinatorially as it is now.

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Is just running past, in regards to the fashion aspect, it is actually more desirable to many I would imagine to see such stylised fashion concepts and see the boundaries that can be pushed by the creators in this platform, and if the current creators aren't pushing then it leaves a huge doorway for newer creators to step into. If all that is shown is clothing that the everyday user wears, and that user is seeking something different than their everyday, it won't hit the mark.

One thing I always point out to people with work and the like, is that people want to be 'THAT GIRL' meaning that if the ad is fabulous, and the girl looks fierce and styled to perfection, then the girl or guy that may want to look that amazing is going to be drawn to it. It is why fashion is fashionable and trendy and often in the moment. 

When I started in SL I came to Salsa, I saw on someones cam them dancing at Transylvania and I wanted so badly to have that 3d experience, as I had only used chat like yahoo at the time. The castles, the vampires and so on were intriguing, it was not for me to RP but it was a delight to come and experience and I have stayed for 13 years. Had I seen some people standing around in shorts/ jeans and t-shirts, it may have not had the same pull. I also worked from day two and my first Management position was a clothing store that catered to formal and Japanese clothing. I sold more clothing to men than anything else and that clothing was all Suits. Men wanted to dress up, they wanted to look different than the basic clothing they wore to work. If they perchance wore suits to work they went a level up to tuxedos, and business casual. Smart dressing has been lost somewhere in the past few years, which baffles me now that we have mesh that we do not have more elaborate items. I miss seeing girls tp into hair stores bald in a ballgown trying to find the perfect updo. I miss seeing barefoot guys in tuxedos :)

I like when the pictures on the website are a bit more wowza and that picture while it may be older, is that, it is going to interest those seeking fashion, it actually may grab more of the art student type than short skirts and a bra top would. It elongates the timeline in that area, because those of us who have actually AGED in Second Life, remember when it was all about that kind of clothing, and everything was a show, then also catering to those that long for the ability to have the life that would warrant it, and in Second Life they can have that. Kids to care for a hard job etc, log on and dress to the nines and dance until you can justify staying up as late to :) why not :) and i f someone sees it and thinks oooo I can make the clothing I have been sketching for years or imagining I could one day wear joins up, then yay squared.

 

apparently my running came to a dead stop :P

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15 hours ago, Sasy Scarborough said:

I like when the pictures on the website are a bit more wowza and that picture while it may be older, is that, it is going to interest those seeking fashion, it actually may grab more of the art student type than short skirts and a bra top would. It elongates the timeline in that area, because those of us who have actually AGED in Second Life, remember when it was all about that kind of clothing, and everything was a show, then also catering to those that long for the ability to have the life that would warrant it, and in Second Life they can have that. Kids to care for a hard job etc, log on and dress to the nines and dance until you can justify staying up as late to :) why not :) and i f someone sees it and thinks oooo I can make the clothing I have been sketching for years or imagining I could one day wear joins up, then yay squared.

 

apparently my running came to a dead stop :P

I think the point is you have to advertise in a way that draws in the majority not the minority. Avant garde and high fashion no doubt has its afficianado's I have no doubt but I suspect from anecdotal experience most peoples reaction is "wtf is she wearing I wouldn't be seen dead in that". Whether you like it or not most women really aren't into that sort of fashion. A slinky black dress yes, a dress made from binbags not so much

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44 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

you have to advertise in a way that draws in the majority not the minority

There seems to be some difference of opinion as to what the majority do in SL, I'd love to know the stats. I couldn't market my own virtual lifestyle, because it would sound extremely dull to anyone else!

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2 minutes ago, Raspberry Crystal said:

There seems to be some difference of opinion as to what the majority do in SL, I'd love to know the stats. I couldn't market my own virtual lifestyle, because it would sound extremely dull to anyone else!

I think that's the point... SL needs to be tailoring their marketing efforts to lots of different markets and in lots of different ways and the messaging needs to be different for all of those. 

SL isn't one thing... it's a bajillion things depending on what the user wants it to be. Right now, the home page doesn't really reflect what most of us do or how we spend our time in SL.

Diversify. I know nothing about their marketing department or the budget for it, or who makes those decisions, but in my mind it's clear that they really need to diversify and target their efforts better. 

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On 6/21/2019 at 4:25 AM, CoffeeDujour said:

SL fashion trends in variations of real world high street fashion, shockingly, people like to buy things like the things they like.

If people outside of SL were interested in real world high street fashion, wouldn't they just... um... go to the high street, buy the fashion and wear it instead of creating a glitchy electronic doll to do it for them?

When a newcomer asks what they can do in Second Life, it's common to say, "Anything you can do in real life."

The problem with that is it leads to the very logical reply, "So, what's the God-damn point?"

It would be more appealing to say you can do "anything you can't do in real life."
 

Edited by Theresa Tennyson
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23 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

If people outside of SL were interested in real world high street fashion, wouldn't they just... um... go to the high street, buy the fashion and wear it instead of creating a glitchy electronic doll to do it for them?


 

Most of what you see in sl is very much high street style fashion, the other large percentage of what you see most definitely isnt high street fashion but it still isnt anything like those outfits. However how often in SL do you see outfits like those portrayed when you are out and about? I would bet almost never

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Just now, KanryDrago said:

Most of what you see in sl is very much high street style fashion, the other large percentage of what you see most definitely isnt high street fashion but it still isnt anything like those outfits. However how often in SL do you see outfits like those portrayed when you are out and about? I would bet almost never

Yes, but I doubt that many of the people who are wearing them joined Second Life because they wanted to wear high street fashion.

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1 minute ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Yes, but I doubt that many of the people who are wearing them joined Second Life because they wanted to wear high street fashion.

No probably not but you seem to be missing the point, the percentage of people that like that sort of outfit is probably vanishingly small. The Lab has limited money to spend on marketing. Therefore they need to use it not to target the small niche populations that probably don't amount to more than 1% but rather target the 30 to 40% that want high st/ or non high st fashion that isnt the avant garde style

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Just now, KanryDrago said:

 but rather target the 30 to 40% that want high st/ or non high st fashion that isnt the avant garde style

...who will all try to get into Blueberry at the same time, be locked out and then say, "Forget this, I'll just buy real clothes."

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1 minute ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

...who will all try to get into Blueberry at the same time, be locked out and then say, "Forget this, I'll just buy real clothes."

Why would they all be trying to get into blueberry at the same time? They wont be signing up all at the same time?

Simple fact is creators used to make those avant garde clothes

They didnt sell so creators stopped making them

Labs are better of targetting for adverts what actual real life users have shown them they want to wear rather than outfits that look to most people like they were designed by a drunk blind person after a bad acid trip

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1 minute ago, KanryDrago said:

Why would they all be trying to get into blueberry at the same time? They wont be signing up all at the same time?

If your grand scheme to market to "people who like to wear ordinary clothes" managed to pull in 8000 people over the world and 1% of them got it into their heads to visit Blueberry at any given time? No clothes for them.

Second Life is hopelessly ill-suited for a mass-market audience because of the way it works.

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44 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

anything you can't do in real life

There are a number of people who can't do (In RL) what others might take for granted. One of my friends, for instance really likes being able to walk easily in SL. Yet i know there are others who want to reflect their rl disability in world, of course we can do both.

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1 minute ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

If your grand scheme to market to "people who like to wear ordinary clothes" managed to pull in 8000 people over the world and 1% of them got it into their heads to visit Blueberry at any given time? No clothes for them.

Second Life is hopelessly ill-suited for a mass-market audience because of the way it works.

Apart from the thing you miss there is that most of those 800 people are going to go oh I want something from blueberry and head straight to the market place. We currently have a concurrency of around 50k at any one time many of whom, more than the 8000 you mention without doubt. We don't seem to ever have a problem getting into any popular store in world. Event yes that can be a problem but thats a function of their short time span. If demand is there extra event sims will be opened.

You appear to be arguing that the lab shouldn't be trying to increase their customer base with your arguments

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6 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

You appear to be arguing that the lab shouldn't be trying to increase their customer base with your arguments

I'm arguing that Second Life shouldn't be trying to increase their customer base by advertising itself as a worse version of everyday life.

You seem to be completely lost on the concept that there's a difference between what might make someone interested in Second Life and what people do/buy when they're already in Second Life. Yes, far more people in Second Life buy clothes than start businesses, but it's easier to buy clothes in real life and easier to start a business in Second Life.

Edited by Theresa Tennyson
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Just now, Theresa Tennyson said:

I'm arguing that Second Life shouldn't be trying to increase their customer base by advertising itself as a worse version of everyday life.

You seem to be completely lost on the concept that there's a difference between what might make someone interested in Second Life and what people do/buy when they're already in Second Life.

I am completely on board with the concept that what someone is interested in wont necessarily what someone does when they get in.

You seem to be missing my point which is very few people are interested in that type of fashion. I would suggest that the reason most get interested in second life is so they can look sexy when it comes to clothes. I think the percentage of people who think those clothes look sexy is sub 1% and will probably put off more people who think everyone dresses like that than it attracts

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3 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

We don't seem to ever have a problem getting into any popular store in world.

You've clearly not tried to get into Blueberry when she releases something new. She also doesn't put most of her new releases on the MP right away, I don't think. 

Of course, that's the only store I've only seen that happen with, but it does happen. I'm not sure what it is about her clothes but... zoinks. I mean, I like them well enough and have quite a lot of Blueberry items but no more than a lot of other designers. 

2 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

You seem to be completely lost on the concept that there's a difference between what might make someone interested in Second Life and what people do/buy when they're already in Second Life.

I see his point. Sure, those clothes are going to appeal to some people and make them interested in SL. Some people, myself included, would be turned away if I thought that was indicative of what I'd find in SL. 

And that goes back to why I believe SL needs to diversify their marketing efforts. It would be easy enough to use ad words to target fashionistas into haute couture and use this type of imagery to draw them in. 

But would this apply to a 45 year old straight man whose interested in feeling like a bachelor again? No, it really wouldn't. Again, ad words and targeting marketing. 

SL isn't one size fits all. 

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1 minute ago, Beth Macbain said:

You've clearly not tried to get into Blueberry when she releases something new. She also doesn't put most of her new releases on the MP right away, I don't think. 

Of course, that's the only store I've only seen that happen with, but it does happen. I'm not sure what it is about her clothes but... zoinks. I mean, I like them well enough and have quite a lot of Blueberry items but no more than a lot of other designers. 

I see his point. Sure, those clothes are going to appeal to some people and make them interested in SL. Some people, myself included, would be turned away if I thought that was indicative of what I'd find in SL. 

And that goes back to why I believe SL needs to diversify their marketing efforts. It would be easy enough to use ad words to target fashionistas into haute couture and use this type of imagery to draw them in. 

But would this apply to a 45 year old straight man whose interested in feeling like a bachelor again? No, it really wouldn't. Again, ad words and targeting marketing. 

SL isn't one size fits all. 

See beth gets it, have one image like that fine then something fetish, something high street fashion

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3 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

See beth gets it, have one image like that fine then something fetish, something high street fashion

Now take a look at the opening post of this thread, which shows the web site is basically doing exactly that. Yes, the pictures are old; yes, some choices could probably be better. But they do show the variety you say they should show.

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