"That is not what I meant, at all": How to Connect Respectfully

[Akane Nacht]

58 minutes ago, Orwar said:

   Entering a Swedish home with your shoes on is almost as bad as going to the toilet in the kitchen sink, unless the host or hostess tells you that you may keep your shoes on.

Same in Singapore. Maybe it's all that IKEA furniture we have...

[Orwar]

52 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

This, this, this, this, this. THIS line right here. That's it in a nut shell. Concise, succinct and to the point. I'm going to put it on bumper stickers and billboards and t-shirts. ❤️

   I do not condone of 'creepy' behavior in any way, but - really? I get that ideally, it would be nice if creepiness could just be 'stopped', but rationally it's like saying we should stop the seasons from changing. There always have been and always will be people whose social abilities and empathy aren't up to snuff, are you suggesting we make it illegal for people to look at each other, or trying to greet strangers?

   And do you think that women are the only ones who receive this kind of attention? Then you're terribly narrow-minded. I just came home from going into town to do some shopping, and in the short time I was there, there were several minor incidents of girls ogling me and smiling at me - and even one calling me 'pretty boy' when I passed. There's been times when I've walked home at night and women have straight up walked up to me to lift my kilt, and a lot of guys in the kilt community here have said that the same happens to them, that wearing a kilt on a booze cruise is strongly discouraged because women there absolutely can not keep their hands to themselves. Women can be just as bad as men - and don't come whining about how men are 'taller and stronger', I've decked 'roid-boys a head taller than myself when the situation has called for it.

   This is the world and the reality we live in, sexual harassment and rape are already criminalized in most parts of the world, and that's as far as society can go unless you're going to suggest that you want an authoritarian state where everyone is under constant surveillance and that we drill etiquette into our kids until they're little more than fleshy automatons unable to form a single free thought of creativity.

   Punish the ones who break the laws, leave the rest of us in peace.

[Beth Macbain]

4 minutes ago, Orwar said:

   I do not condone of 'creepy' behavior in any way, but - really? I get that ideally, it would be nice if creepiness could just be 'stopped', but rationally it's like saying we should stop the seasons from changing. There always have been and always will be people whose social abilities and empathy aren't up to snuff, are you suggesting we make it illegal for people to look at each other, or trying to greet strangers?

   And do you think that women are the only ones who receive this kind of attention? Then you're terribly narrow-minded. I just came home from going into town to do some shopping, and in the short time I was there, there were several minor incidents of girls ogling me and smiling at me - and even one calling me 'pretty boy' when I passed. There's been times when I've walked home at night and women have straight up walked up to me to lift my kilt, and a lot of guys in the kilt community here have said that the same happens to them, that wearing a kilt on a booze cruise is strongly discouraged because women there absolutely can not keep their hands to themselves. Women can be just as bad as men - and don't come whining about how men are 'taller and stronger', I've decked 'roid-boys a head taller than myself when the situation has called for it.

   This is the world and the reality we live in, sexual harassment and rape are already criminalized in most parts of the world, and that's as far as society can go unless you're going to suggest that you want an authoritarian state where everyone is under constant surveillance and that we drill etiquette into our kids until they're little more than fleshy automatons unable to form a single free thought of creativity.

   Punish the ones who break the laws, leave the rest of us in peace.

Er... I think you completely missed the point there. 

If a woman calls you a pretty boy, then you should stop and explain to her why that isn't appropriate. If a woman jerks up your kilt, I would hope that you would call the police and have her charged with sexual harassment. Nowhere did I say this type of objectification happens only to women. Nowhere did I suggest that men couldn't be victims as well. 

What we want and need is for anyone and everyone to stop assuming that women don't know they need to take measures to protect themselves. We're smart cookies. 

Should you have to stop wearing a kilt to certain places at certain times around certain people? Of course not. You should be able to wear it anywhere you want without fear of some chick trying to touch it, or you, in any way. 

She would be the creep in this scenario. You, as the victim, aren't to be blamed at all. 

[Orwar]

1 minute ago, Beth Macbain said:

Er... I think you completely missed the point there. 

If a woman calls you a pretty boy, then you should stop and explain to her why that isn't appropriate. If a woman jerks up your kilt, I would hope that you would call the police and have her charged with sexual harassment. Nowhere did I say this type of objectification happens only to women. Nowhere did I suggest that men couldn't be victims as well

   Yeah, because my life is so empty that I don't have anything better to do with my time than explaining to weirdos that they're being weird. And if I were to call the police, I'd quite certainly be laughed at by them - and what purpose would it serve anyway? I'm not going to waste the time of our law enforcement when kids are shooting each other because some drunk woman gets curious about what's under my kilt. Furthest I go is to ask them how they'd feel if I snuck up on them to lift their skirt to check them out.

5 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

What we want and need is for anyone and everyone to stop assuming that women don't know they need to take measures to protect themselves. We're smart cookies. 

   That's not what you just over-used the word 'this' for, though. It feels as if you're quite unsure of what exactly it is that you want or need - all you seem certain of is that you want everyone to agree with your world view, which honestly is a pretty vain expectation.

8 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

Should you have to stop wearing a kilt to certain places at certain times around certain people? Of course not. You should be able to wear it anywhere you want without fear of some chick trying to touch it, or you, in any way. 

She would be the creep in this scenario. You, as the victim, aren't to be blamed at all. 

   Again, ideally, yes. But I'm also not going to lean on some airy ideal to factor in when I take rational choice of whether I should or shouldn't expose myself to a risk - but when it comes to my choice of wearing a kilt on certain occasions, the benefits thereof outweigh the risks to me. I'm honestly not too bothered about who sees my private anatomy, and if a woman chooses to wear something with a deep cleavage, obviously they aren't too concerned with who happens to see their skin.

   I also like how you use 'would' there, either it's a grammatical error on your end or you're hinting that you're skeptical of my story. I hope it isn't skepticism; most men don't want to admit to anyone, let alone themselves, that they've been the victim of sexual abuse or harassment - the skepticism and outright accusations of lying because we're expected to be able to flick women off with our pinkies if we so desire it makes it an extremely stigmatizing position.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

35 minutes ago, Orwar said:

And do you think that women are the only ones who receive this kind of attention? Then you're terribly narrow-minded. I just came home from going into town to do some shopping, and in the short time I was there, there were several minor incidents of girls ogling me and smiling at me - and even one calling me 'pretty boy' when I passed. There's been times when I've walked home at night and women have straight up walked up to me to lift my kilt, and a lot of guys in the kilt community here have said that the same happens to them, that wearing a kilt on a booze cruise is strongly discouraged because women there absolutely can not keep their hands to themselves. Women can be just as bad as men - and don't come whining about how men are 'taller and stronger', I've decked 'roid-boys a head taller than myself when the situation has called for it.

What Beth said, completely. I'll also just draw your attention to the OP, where I added -- on June 20th -- an ETA that makes it clear that I'm not necessarily talking about gendered behaviour.

We can argue about the incidence of kilt-lifting, or the severity of the kind of physical threat you may have thought you faced, in contrast to the frequency of harassment directed at women, and the kinds of physical threat we face, but that's a side issue, really: the important thing is that this kind of behaviour is absolutely unacceptable, regardless of where it is coming from.

In fact, given your own experiences, I'm a little surprised you're not more supportive of what we are saying here?

39 minutes ago, Orwar said:

Punish the ones who break the laws, leave the rest of us in peace.

How exactly are we not "leaving you in peace"? No one here has suggested anything like legal or political mechanisms to address this. No one has implied that we need some kind of restrictive monitoring of men for good behaviour.

We are trying to change attitudes. If yours is already good, then this impinges on you not at all.

(That said, it is much appreciated when men support the work of women to change attitudes. Because of the way in which homosocial behaviour works, you are actually far more effective at helping spread the good word among men than we are. They will listen to you in way that they won't to us. So, we'd appreciate your work as an ally, if you can see your way to becoming one.)

[Scylla Rhiadra]

6 hours ago, ErukaVonD said:

This is a very interesting topic.

As a sex worker, forced to have 1(one) pick of the club as agreed job requirement, I almost always get hit on with sexual requests.

The funny thing is that my profile in its entirety states nothing else remotely connected to sexytime and I mostly walk around in baggy clothes or RP outfits without any sexy parts revealed.

Yet, some people are so shallow they see me quietly meditating in a corner or riding my horse or gardening and they believe I'm up for funky time by default just because of my job which pays for my mesh and other things. ^^

I wish there were more hangouts/cafes/gardens/lounges and what have you without tags such as BDSM, sex, daddy etc.

Some are here for soul food, ya know. :3

Eruka, thank you for this.

We haven't talked here at all about the particular issues arising from sex work, and the ways in which sex workers are stigmatized (ironically, most often by those who seek their services) and victimized.

The assumption that you are your job -- i.e., if you are a sex worker, then you are necessarily a "loose woman" who is accessible to anyone at any time -- is one that we don't apply to, let's say, dentists.

I'm going to hazard a guess that dentists at parties are not approached by fellow party-goers with demands that they correct an overbite right there and then, for free.

Everything that has been said here applies equally to the case of those who have chosen, or (has certainly happens in RL) been compelled to work in sex trade. Your body is still very much your own, and you are absolutely deserving of the same kind of respect, and freedom from assumptions, that anyone else is.

[Selene Gregoire]

The kilt lifting will stop about the same time as the braid grabbing stops. Yes, there are those who will still do that. Mostly white women grabbing men's braids. The guys don't like it.

So I imagine the wolf whistles, leering and "obscene" gestures made towards women will stop about the same time.

In other words, it will stop when everyone starts having some compassion for, rather then de-humanizing, those who are not like them. 

[Orwar]

7 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

How exactly are we not "leaving you in peace"? No one here has suggested anything like legal or political mechanisms to address this. No one has implied that we need some kind of restrictive monitoring of men for good behaviour.

We are trying to change attitudes. If yours is already good, then this impinges on you not at all.

   Changing attitudes isn't as easy as flipping a switch, why people are the way they are is an extremely complex issue - and as was stated earlier, cultural differences is something that we'll just have to get used to in SL. My point on that still stands, though; if you're met with behavior that you do not find acceptable, it's up to YOU to block or otherwise stop the communications by the other party, you can't seriously expect that everyone on the grid are to change their attitudes to suit your world view.

4 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

The kilt lifting will stop about the same time as the braid grabbing stops. Yes, there are those who will still do that. Mostly white women grabbing men's braids. The guys don't like it.

So I imagine the wolf whistles, leering and "obscene" gestures made towards women will stop about the same time.

In other words, it will stop when everyone starts having some compassion for, rather then de-humanizing, those who are not like them. 

   Exactly - or when Hell freezes over.

[Catrie]

This issue is FAR bigger than common courtesy in Second Life, or any online game or community.  We could talk about r*pe culture, women lifting up strange mens' kilts, etc for days on end and still be no closer to a solution.

Honestly, I feel we should get back toward the original topic.  As you can tell by my Flickr, I have dressed VERY provocatively on occasion.  However, that has never meant I've been open to unsolicited advances.  My profile and pics explicitly state that I'm taken.  However, regardless of what I've worn, I have been hit on, either at a music club, a shopping event, etc. People tend to gloss over the parts stating I'm taken and mention something further down in my profile. So, they can read, they just choose to selectively ignore parts that they don't like.  It isn't just SL that this has happened on.  Throughout the years, of my online gaming experience, I've been told I have the voice of a phone sex operator, that a gay guy would go straight for me, and given a highly sexual "theme song" just because I played a female Night Elf and was a female who spoke on voice chat programs. 

A lot of people feel that the anonymity of the internet "frees" them from societal conventions. They can be as crass, rude and provocative as they want to be, with no real consequences. They feel they can get away with stuff here that they can't in the "Real World", and to some extent, that is true.  People tend to forget that there is another person, behind a similar screen, thousands of miles away reading whatever they have posted or reacting to whatever they are/have been doing in a video game or online.  It only becomes real to them if it happens to them or are somehow affected.

I think @Scylla Rhiadra's main point, to start with, could be boiled down to the one rule most people have been taught since they were little:  Treat others as you would want to be treated.  Common sense is no longer common.  In fact, I always joke that common sense is so rare, it should now be considered a super power and therefore, I'm a superhero.  I even have the common sense NOT to wear a cape with my superhero suit. 😛

Common sense and common courtesy should always be followed, regardless if you are in real life or online.  ( I took the convoluted path to get here, sorry. lol)

(also, I'd totally call @Orwar a pretty boy irl, but I'd never walk up to him and tell him that if I didn't already know him.  I'd totally try to sneak a pic of him and share it with all my girl friends and swoon over a cute guy in a kilt. lol Otherwise, that would just be rude!)

 

 

Edited June 26, 2019 by Catrie

[Akane Nacht]

26 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

We are trying to change attitudes. If yours is already good, then this impinges on you not at all.

Since women haven't reached a consensus on what is a "good" attitude on this topic, it's a little unrealistic to expect men to. 😉 

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

5 minutes ago, Orwar said:

Changing attitudes isn't as easy as flipping a switch, why people are the way they are is an extremely complex issue - and as was stated earlier, cultural differences is something that we'll just have to get used to in SL.

No, it's not easy. First Wave feminism, and the first really systematic attempts to change attitudes, is usually dated from the publication of Mary Wollstonecraft's A Vindication of the Rights of Woman: with Strictures on Political and Moral Subjects in 1792 -- and of course, there others who were making these points before then even, so I think we've demonstrated a certain degree of patience here.

6 minutes ago, Orwar said:

it's up to YOU to block or otherwise stop the communications by the other party, you can't seriously expect that everyone on the grid are to change their attitudes to suit your world view.

Ok, so you do think that I should have just taken a different route to the streetcar stop each day?

My "world view," as you put it, is that no one should be harassed because of the expectations or assumptions of someone else. This is unreasonable?

[Scylla Rhiadra]

4 minutes ago, Akane Nacht said:

Since women haven't reached a consensus on what is a "good" attitude on this topic, it's a little unrealistic to expect men to. 😉   

 

I think we have though.

Do you know of any women who think it is alright for someone to harass or assault someone? Or who thinks that consent and respect are not important components of any interaction with others?

That is, really, literally, what this is about. If you are a woman and you want to be treated like a so-called "sl*t," then that's fine: that is your prerogative. But it is your choice, and anyone treating you that way needs to make sure you're ok with it, and consent to it.

This is all so simple, really. I honestly don't understand why it's so contentious to ask that you not treat someone, man or woman, in a way that respects THEIR wishes and requires their consent.

Why is this hard?

[Scylla Rhiadra]

11 minutes ago, Catrie said:

I think @Scylla Rhiadra's main point, to start with, could be boiled down to the one rule most people have been taught since they were little:  Treat others as you would want to be treated. 

Thanks, Catrie: it really is this simple, surely?

The only emendation that I'd make is that you shouldn't assume that what you want is what someone else wants. Because you are ok with men jovially smacking you on the behind, doesn't necessarily mean I like it. (I use the royal "you" and "I" here: I have no idea if you like being smacked on the behind.)

So, crazy idea . . . ASK FIRST. Right?

Again, how hard is this?????

[Orwar]

1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

No, it's not easy. First Wave feminism, and the first really systematic attempts to change attitudes, is usually dated from the publication of Mary Wollstonecraft's A Vindication of the Rights of Woman: with Strictures on Political and Moral Subjects in 1792 -- and of course, there others who were making these points before then even, so I think we've demonstrated a certain degree of patience here.

   And here, feminism has achieved more than anything else - there's now a zero tolerance for 'violence' in schools, and many of them will notify the law enforcement as soon as two boys get physical.

   ... Which is an interesting way of trying to make men less aggressive, as there's tons of data from behavioral sciences that suggest that boys who are allowed to act out their aggression and fight and play rough in their youth grow to become more responsible and tempered adults as they are aware of the limits. Boys these days don't, which is a contributing factor of violent crime with deadly outcome and an increase of young men physically assaulting their partners as the result of an argument.

   But it's the wage gap issue all over - feminists generally don't care to actually read or understand the data or statistics, they need to be victims because then they can weaponize that. The world has changed a whole lot since Mary Shelley's time, and most of it for the better - but legally, most western societies have more or less achieved equality, but since there still are women who feel that they don't have enough, many of them now want to tip the scales the other way instead out of pure revanchism - and if they can wield their status as 'oppressed' to get there, they apparently have no problem doing so.

5 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

My "world view," as you put it, is that no one should be harassed because of the expectations or assumptions of someone else. This is unreasonable? 

   Unfortunately, yes. Reality doesn't care about humanitarian ideals, we're a species of opportunists and people will use whatever means they can to attain what they want, all too often without any regard for whom they must step on to get there. I'd love to live in your ideal world, but this simply isn't it, and I doubt it ever will be.

1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Thanks, Catrie: it really is this simple, surely?

The only emendation that I'd make is that you shouldn't assume that what you want is what someone else wants. Because you are ok with men jovially smacking you on the behind, doesn't necessarily mean I like it. (I use the royal "you" and "I" here: I have no idea if you like being smacked on the behind.)

   That's great, we'd never have to see another war or crime ever again. That's three of us down, just another 7,529,999,998 people to go.

[Akane Nacht]

8 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I think we have though.

Do you know of any women who think it is alright for someone to harass or assault someone? Or who thinks that consent and respect are not important components of any interaction with others?

That is, really, literally, what this is about. If you are a woman and you want to be treated like a so-called "sl*t," then that's fine: that is your prerogative. But it is your choice, and anyone treating you that way needs to make sure you're ok with it, and consent to it.

This is all so simple, really. I honestly don't understand why it's so contentious to ask that you not treat someone, man or woman, in a way that respects THEIR wishes and requires their consent.

Why is this hard?

Harassment or assault that is in violation of the law, of course not. No one has said that from what I read.

But there is a grey area in terms of what people consider harassment when it is not covered by the law. I've already said my piece on that, so no need to repeat it here.

It's hard because.. we can't read people's minds. It is impossible to treat someone in the exact way they want to be treated at any given point of time. Human interaction is always give and take.

[Selene Gregoire]

4 minutes ago, Akane Nacht said:

impossible to treat someone in the exact way they want to be treated

That's not what was said.

"Treat others as you would have them treat you", not "treat me the way I want to be treated". Big difference.

[Catrie]

18 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Thanks, Catrie: it really is this simple, surely?

The only emendation that I'd make is that you shouldn't assume that what you want is what someone else wants. Because you are ok with men jovially smacking you on the behind, doesn't necessarily mean I like it. (I use the royal "you" and "I" here: I have no idea if you like being smacked on the behind.)

So, crazy idea . . . ASK FIRST. Right?

Again, how hard is this?????

I only like it if @Orwar or Py does it, otherwise, that's just rude. lol

It should be that simple, but it never will be. Just look at the news, on a daily or even hourly, basis.

  It seems like people,on the forums, are coming to the same conclusion but from different directions.  I've tried to read what everyone has said, and people bring up a lot of good and valid points.  Since this issue can get so emotionally charged, and this IS text after all,I feel that some may have possibly read things not exactly as how they were originally intended.  We tend to add our own inflections and meanings to what others write, as we are putting our own experiences behind it. 

I think everyone can agree that harassing or assaulting someone is wrong. However, people still do it for various reasons, be it acts of war or simply " because they can".  Most of us come to Second Life to escape real life. There will always be bad people in this world. or at least, flawed people doing bad things.  We can't just tell everyone " stop doing bad stuff", because that will never work.  We can't also force them to be nice 24/7.  In fact, I'm pretty sure Charmed did an episode,in the '90s, with a plot similar to that, I believe. 

The best we can do is to individually treat people how we want to be treated.  Teach kids what common courtesy is. I still say "Please" and "Thank You" when asked a question or whatever.  Let me tell you,  I've received things like free chips and queso just by being polite for no other reason that because that's how I was taught. lol  Will this change the world?  Probably not on a global level, but it might change the small world around you.  Also, that was some REALLY good chips and queso.  yum yum. lol 

Edited June 26, 2019 by Catrie

[Janet Voxel]

40 minutes ago, Catrie said:

I think @Scylla Rhiadra's main point, to start with, could be boiled down to the one rule most people have been taught since they were little:  Treat others as you would want to be treated.  Common sense is no longer common.  In fact, I always joke that common sense is so rare, it should now be considered a super power and therefore, I'm a superhero.  I even have the common sense NOT to wear a cape with my superhero suit. 😛

Common sense and common courtesy should always be followed, regardless if you are in real life or online.

 @Orwar

 

 

[Coffee Pancake]

4 hours ago, Orwar said:

  And here, feminism has achieved more than anything else - there's now a zero tolerance for 'violence' in schools, and many of them will notify the law enforcement as soon as two boys get physical.

   ... Which is an interesting way of trying to make men less aggressive, as there's tons of data from behavioral sciences that suggest that boys who are allowed to act out their aggression and fight and play rough in their youth grow to become more responsible and tempered adults as they are aware of the limits. Boys these days don't, which is a contributing factor of violent crime with deadly outcome and an increase of young men physically assaulting their partners as the result of an argument.

You're really suggesting children be allowed to beat and bully each other so the ones who survive their education come out better rounded?

Are you for real ?

[Luna Bliss]

27 minutes ago, CoffeeDujour said:

You're really suggesting children be allowed to beat and bully each other so the ones who survive their education come out better rounded?

Are you for real ?

I think I saw that book on Amazon -- "The Aggressive Males Guide To Child Rearing"...

[Scylla Rhiadra]

29 minutes ago, CoffeeDujour said:

You're really suggesting children be allowed to beat and bully each other so the ones who survive their education come out better rounded?

Are you for real ?

I've been sitting here thinking of how to respond to just that in a way that doesn't involve using expletives.

Thank you for coming to my rescue.

[Selene Gregoire]

Sometimes there can be only one response. Walk away and don't look back.

[Beth Macbain]

6 hours ago, Orwar said:

   That's not what you just over-used the word 'this' for, though. It feels as if you're quite unsure of what exactly it is that you want or need - all you seem certain of is that you want everyone to agree with your world view, which honestly is a pretty vain expectation.

If you haven't gotten the message by now, you're not going to. I think that's absolutely intentional on your part. Women don't need men to explain the need for personal protection. The victim is never to blame. It's really pretty simple. 

My world view is that people should treat each other with respect, and yes, I do want everyone to agree with me on that. If that makes me vain, I'm okay with that. I'm pretty certain I'm on the right side of that argument. 

5 hours ago, Orwar said:

And here, feminism has achieved more than anything else - there's now a zero tolerance for 'violence' in schools, and many of them will notify the law enforcement as soon as two boys get physical.

   ... Which is an interesting way of trying to make men less aggressive, as there's tons of data from behavioral sciences that suggest that boys who are allowed to act out their aggression and fight and play rough in their youth grow to become more responsible and tempered adults as they are aware of the limits. Boys these days don't, which is a contributing factor of violent crime with deadly outcome and an increase of young men physically assaulting their partners as the result of an argument.

You're conflating physical exercise and sports with physical altercation. 

If you're not, please provide one peer-reviewed scientific study that shows violent male children grow up to be more responsible and even-tempered, and are less prone to commit violent crime and beat their partners. 

[KanryDrago]

Ok not going to quote anything but speaking as I think a respectful male I have to say

If I see you in a club and I am single and your profile shows nothing like a partenr or I am not interested then I may well im you and suggest we dance. If you dont like it and its unwelcome, sorry tough I had no way of knowing that before asking if you might like to dance. Its not about how you dress its about you being there , me liking what I saw and nothing saying I shouldn't.

Now that may offend some but I see this bull***** every day. We aren't mindreaders. If we have no reason to think its unwelcome and we ask then get off your high horse most people take a simple no I am not interested quite politely.

I do get the impression from some posts here that people should only ask those that they know want the offer. I would ask merely whats the difference between "Hello there, would you perhaps wish to dance?" and "Hello there, would you mind if I ask you to dance?"

 

[KanryDrago]

In case anyone is wondering about the post above I am currently peeved by a girl at work who is single, this was widely known. Two guys decided to invite her out one to a film the other to dinner. One she accepted the other she reported to hr for sexual harassment because apparently he should have known she wasnt interested. Her words, she was a friend now I told her to go fornicate over it and we argued about it today. Yes the guy she reported by her own admission it was the only time he asked. Her view being "well he is so ugly he should have known I wasn't interested"