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I posted this in the long post "A Brief Note on pricing changes, which ran long".  I spent a lot of time, and thought on it...but i feel it got lost in the long thread.  I had hoped that there were suggestions in this post that might have had some good possibilities, so I am posting here, on it's own thread.  Perhaps others can toss in their own suggestions, and maybe the Lindens can see, and maybe even comment.  ((some edits from the original post will be added/changed, to make information correct)).

 

okay.  I spent 1/2 hour writing this up...but instead of it posting, i got the LL "login screen", so I want to try again, and hopefully I get as nicely written as i feel i did before.

 

#1 - Groups --

I personally like the addition of groups to premium.  Some people say that you don't need that many...Sadly, they can truly add up.  As a creator of children's clothing, i have texture groups and mesh creator groups.  Yes, to get the discount and/or gifts, but some require you to be part of it to get their items.  Then of course, you have advertising (I push some of it off to alts, but i need to do some of it on my creator alt).  And my store group.  I sell gachas, so...again, stores, advertising.  Some groups have the main group, and management groups, and then land/shop rental groups.  I have heard of situations like say you rent a parcel in a community sim, you need that group.  Want to RP on that sim? you need the RP group.  Do you moderate that RP?  Another group.  Do you do a "job" on that? (i.e. fireman, policeman, etc)....another group.  Or stores that use bloggers, a lot require another group.  So, for some, having a need for groups is beyond "hey, i want 10 groups just for the free hair, and another 10 for the free clothes".  

 

Anyway, I realize that there are reasons for the backend "cost" of groups, as far as setup and ...for lack of a better word... memory that it takes to maintain.  I would like to suggest some possibilities of different types of groups, that could help reduce some of the backend, but still allowing for the needs of people.

----Notice Only.  This would be a good type of group for stores and clubs.  Allows for the store to set MM boards/group gifts to group only, as well as send out the information that is needed about their store.  Could have a small set amount of allowed managers.  Perhaps a second level Notice Only, also, for event-type groups, where the store owners (DJ's, whatever) can send out their store notices.  <<edit:  i realize groups have a setting that allow this, however, i mean removing the possibility of chat/etc, so making a smaller needed "memory" space on this type group.>> <<second edit:  Possible second type of notice only...one that the notice only stays for 24-48 hours.  Events, or group gifts, may only need 1 or 2 days, so take up that space, hanging on for 2 weeks.  Also possibility of when creating the notice, a checkbox that allows for amount of days to keep it on the server, as some may only need to be on for 1-3 days/etc>>

----Limited People.  I feel that there are a LOT of groups out there, that are limited in people, as they are not needed.  So perhaps a Limited People group, of 10-20.  should be good for management type groups, and families (I know there are families out there that have more, of course).

----Event/Rental Time-Limited.  This could be a group, that is owned by the event/market/mall owner, and management (to me, 3-4 would seem appropriate, for invite and other management, but, i dont run events).  A non-notice, non-chat group (these all can be taken care of by regular groups, discord, or forum threads), that a person joins and doesn't actually count against their groups, and is only active in it for 24 hours, or 2 hours after the active group is changed.  Most events, you only need one setup.  And mall/market owners, you don't need it EVERY day, if it's a secondary store, so the management staff can re-invite as needed).

----Large Population Groups.  Perhaps in the circles I am in, but I do not know of many groups, who are more than, say, 1000 people, or 5000 people.  Active people.  I would think that a large group, of say 10,000 or more, could incur a monthly fee (even a dollar).  It could encourage people to go through their groups, and remove those who have not logged on for x time.  Of course, there could be some exceptions, for example (I am guessing!!!), firestorm support, caspervend support, education groups, new avatar education groups.

<<adding at this time>>

----Basic Group/Additional Members.  This type of group would be similar to the above group, but the difference is perhaps groups start with 500 member.  Then for each additional 500 members, a purchase of $250L fee, one time only.  <<>>

 

I also feel that there should/could be an alternative to taking away from the non-premium, and offering everyone a chance to get what they need.  I think perhaps an "a la carte" add-on of groups could be an option.  To me, I feel that it should be perhaps $1/month for 10 groups, for premium, and perhaps $3/month for 10 groups, for non-premium.  If this fee is not paid/deactivated, then the last 10 groups joined (no matter how many they have open) should be removed, unless they had brought their groups under the amount needed before deactivating that payment need.

 

#2 - Estate Land

I truly feel that giving discounts to the estate owners are good...however, a lot of us do feel blocked out.  I would love to own an estate land, but the setup fee and all the other fees make it very prohibitive.  I think that there are incentives that could be given to premium members, again, to help us acquire land.  One, to me, would be once per annual premium payment, the chance to purchase the land, without the setup fee, should be an allowed item.  I would think ONLY one estate land, per premium membership, per annual payment.  Or, slightly alternative, is to charge the setup fee, but absorb a one-month payment into it.  This second alternative, I feel may bring in more income, if it was a 2 times a year 1 day/1 weekend event, maybe.  You may not get that initial month, but more people would be able to get estate land.  <<edit:  i have now found that the first month is absorbed into the activation fee.  I was not aware of that, as that chart is slightly confusing to me.  However, the rest of this note stands>>

 

#3 - Mainland

Not QUITE related to the issues at hand, but may be a "perk" to offer to premium account holders, are possible "changes" to Mainland.  There is a lot of abandoned land, and it's just very...broken.  Some is very ugly, because it is so broken.  I would propose that for those premium members that own land on a sim, that has abandoned land, that people can request it (under the same regulations as the past), for free, up to the next tier level.  I.e. you own 2048, you could get 2048 for free, to bring you up to 4096.  Obviously you have to pay the tier, and you have to have pre-existing land (perhaps you have to own it for 6 months or so, not just move in, and try to get the other free land).

Alternatively, another idea.  I own parcels on a sim, that has ended up looking like a pixel snake, some wider, some smaller.  weaving in and out of current participants.  I would love the ability, to consolidate it, and either move to a square/rectangular parcel on that sim, or another sim.  (equivalent type, no matter that i would love to move to a beachfront parcel.  *giggles*).  I think this could open up some larger parcels, that people could purchase, or could work to help make some parcels look "neater", if there aren't small parcels all over one, instead of buying a lot of small parcels on a sim "just for prims", you can decorate larger areas.  

The other option I would love, kindof combined with the above, is combining land from different sims into one.  for example, there is a full sim near me for sale. I would love to be able to take my land from the 2 sims that i own, have it on there, then pay the difference for that land.  Not quite the right example, as this mainland sim is owned by another person, but if he abandoned it, i would love that possibility.  Again, in my mind, possible prettier sim, more land opened in others, and possibly more people purchasing mainland, if they could have a possibility of making it a little more of what they want, instead of small/tiny parcels.

 

KK, after typing this all out for the 2d time, i am hoping this posts...a little long winded, but i hope these are ideas that might be viable.  Or...at least let me vent in a semi-productive way.  *smiles*

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11 hours ago, Fyrebird Courier said:

I have heard of situations like say you rent a parcel in a community sim, you need that group.  Want to RP on that sim? you need the RP group.  Do you moderate that RP?  Another group.  Do you do a "job" on that? (i.e. fireman, policeman, etc)....another group. 

A lot of this script-count bloat could be remedied if scripts could see which Roles a group member has available and which one they currently have active. As-is, scripts' visibility into Groups is extremely limited (hence contributing demand for bots used solely to work around -- with extra lag -- some of those script limitations).

(Lots of other ideas in the post; I just wanted to throw this in as a relatively easy improvement the Lab could make.)

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Would it help to disable voice chat in group IM aswell?

I have honestly never seen it used once apart from accidental clicks on the call button, in all 10 or so odd years of being around SL. 

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1 hour ago, Digit Gears said:

Would it help to disable voice chat in group IM aswell?

I have honestly never seen it used once apart from accidental clicks on the call button, in all 10 or so odd years of being around SL. 

same and when it was new it was horrible if you were the one accidentally clicking it. 

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1 hour ago, Digit Gears said:

Would it help to disable voice chat in group IM aswell?

I have honestly never seen it used once apart from accidental clicks on the call button, in all 10 or so odd years of being around SL. 

Might it be a historical thing? Was it there before conferences?

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40 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

Might it be a historical thing? Was it there before conferences?

Nope. There was no voice until there was voice. lol

What I mean is when voice was deployed on the grid it was deployed for groups as well.

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I do not know of any groups (public) that have that even activated now that we have all the options to control it, it would be very much a good idea if they could remove it if it was in fact a drain on the grid to have it pinging all over the place.

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On 6/9/2019 at 8:45 PM, Fyrebird Courier said:

I posted this in the long post "A Brief Note on pricing changes, which ran long".  I spent a lot of time, and thought on it...but i feel it got lost in the long thread.  I had hoped that there were suggestions in this post that might have had some good possibilities, so I am posting here, on it's own thread.  Perhaps others can toss in their own suggestions, and maybe the Lindens can see, and maybe even comment.  ((some edits from the original post will be added/changed, to make information correct)).

 

okay.  I spent 1/2 hour writing this up...but instead of it posting, i got the LL "login screen", so I want to try again, and hopefully I get as nicely written as i feel i did before.

 

#1 - Groups --

I personally like the addition of groups to premium.  Some people say that you don't need that many...Sadly, they can truly add up.  As a creator of children's clothing, i have texture groups and mesh creator groups.  Yes, to get the discount and/or gifts, but some require you to be part of it to get their items.  Then of course, you have advertising (I push some of it off to alts, but i need to do some of it on my creator alt).  And my store group.  I sell gachas, so...again, stores, advertising.  Some groups have the main group, and management groups, and then land/shop rental groups.  I have heard of situations like say you rent a parcel in a community sim, you need that group.  Want to RP on that sim? you need the RP group.  Do you moderate that RP?  Another group.  Do you do a "job" on that? (i.e. fireman, policeman, etc)....another group.  Or stores that use bloggers, a lot require another group.  So, for some, having a need for groups is beyond "hey, i want 10 groups just for the free hair, and another 10 for the free clothes".  

 

Anyway, I realize that there are reasons for the backend "cost" of groups, as far as setup and ...for lack of a better word... memory that it takes to maintain.  I would like to suggest some possibilities of different types of groups, that could help reduce some of the backend, but still allowing for the needs of people.

----Notice Only.  This would be a good type of group for stores and clubs.  Allows for the store to set MM boards/group gifts to group only, as well as send out the information that is needed about their store.  Could have a small set amount of allowed managers.  Perhaps a second level Notice Only, also, for event-type groups, where the store owners (DJ's, whatever) can send out their store notices.  <<edit:  i realize groups have a setting that allow this, however, i mean removing the possibility of chat/etc, so making a smaller needed "memory" space on this type group.>> <<second edit:  Possible second type of notice only...one that the notice only stays for 24-48 hours.  Events, or group gifts, may only need 1 or 2 days, so take up that space, hanging on for 2 weeks.  Also possibility of when creating the notice, a checkbox that allows for amount of days to keep it on the server, as some may only need to be on for 1-3 days/etc>>

----Limited People.  I feel that there are a LOT of groups out there, that are limited in people, as they are not needed.  So perhaps a Limited People group, of 10-20.  should be good for management type groups, and families (I know there are families out there that have more, of course).

----Event/Rental Time-Limited.  This could be a group, that is owned by the event/market/mall owner, and management (to me, 3-4 would seem appropriate, for invite and other management, but, i dont run events).  A non-notice, non-chat group (these all can be taken care of by regular groups, discord, or forum threads), that a person joins and doesn't actually count against their groups, and is only active in it for 24 hours, or 2 hours after the active group is changed.  Most events, you only need one setup.  And mall/market owners, you don't need it EVERY day, if it's a secondary store, so the management staff can re-invite as needed).

----Large Population Groups.  Perhaps in the circles I am in, but I do not know of many groups, who are more than, say, 1000 people, or 5000 people.  Active people.  I would think that a large group, of say 10,000 or more, could incur a monthly fee (even a dollar).  It could encourage people to go through their groups, and remove those who have not logged on for x time.  Of course, there could be some exceptions, for example (I am guessing!!!), firestorm support, caspervend support, education groups, new avatar education groups.

<<adding at this time>>

----Basic Group/Additional Members.  This type of group would be similar to the above group, but the difference is perhaps groups start with 500 member.  Then for each additional 500 members, a purchase of $250L fee, one time only.  <<>>

 

I also feel that there should/could be an alternative to taking away from the non-premium, and offering everyone a chance to get what they need.  I think perhaps an "a la carte" add-on of groups could be an option.  To me, I feel that it should be perhaps $1/month for 10 groups, for premium, and perhaps $3/month for 10 groups, for non-premium.  If this fee is not paid/deactivated, then the last 10 groups joined (no matter how many they have open) should be removed, unless they had brought their groups under the amount needed before deactivating that payment need.

 

#2 - Estate Land

I truly feel that giving discounts to the estate owners are good...however, a lot of us do feel blocked out.  I would love to own an estate land, but the setup fee and all the other fees make it very prohibitive.  I think that there are incentives that could be given to premium members, again, to help us acquire land.  One, to me, would be once per annual premium payment, the chance to purchase the land, without the setup fee, should be an allowed item.  I would think ONLY one estate land, per premium membership, per annual payment.  Or, slightly alternative, is to charge the setup fee, but absorb a one-month payment into it.  This second alternative, I feel may bring in more income, if it was a 2 times a year 1 day/1 weekend event, maybe.  You may not get that initial month, but more people would be able to get estate land.  <<edit:  i have now found that the first month is absorbed into the activation fee.  I was not aware of that, as that chart is slightly confusing to me.  However, the rest of this note stands>>

 

#3 - Mainland

Not QUITE related to the issues at hand, but may be a "perk" to offer to premium account holders, are possible "changes" to Mainland.  There is a lot of abandoned land, and it's just very...broken.  Some is very ugly, because it is so broken.  I would propose that for those premium members that own land on a sim, that has abandoned land, that people can request it (under the same regulations as the past), for free, up to the next tier level.  I.e. you own 2048, you could get 2048 for free, to bring you up to 4096.  Obviously you have to pay the tier, and you have to have pre-existing land (perhaps you have to own it for 6 months or so, not just move in, and try to get the other free land).

Alternatively, another idea.  I own parcels on a sim, that has ended up looking like a pixel snake, some wider, some smaller.  weaving in and out of current participants.  I would love the ability, to consolidate it, and either move to a square/rectangular parcel on that sim, or another sim.  (equivalent type, no matter that i would love to move to a beachfront parcel.  *giggles*).  I think this could open up some larger parcels, that people could purchase, or could work to help make some parcels look "neater", if there aren't small parcels all over one, instead of buying a lot of small parcels on a sim "just for prims", you can decorate larger areas.  

The other option I would love, kindof combined with the above, is combining land from different sims into one.  for example, there is a full sim near me for sale. I would love to be able to take my land from the 2 sims that i own, have it on there, then pay the difference for that land.  Not quite the right example, as this mainland sim is owned by another person, but if he abandoned it, i would love that possibility.  Again, in my mind, possible prettier sim, more land opened in others, and possibly more people purchasing mainland, if they could have a possibility of making it a little more of what they want, instead of small/tiny parcels.

 

KK, after typing this all out for the 2d time, i am hoping this posts...a little long winded, but i hope these are ideas that might be viable.  Or...at least let me vent in a semi-productive way.  *smiles*

This all sounds interesting, but until I can learn more about what exactly the "novel of tears" involving the programming of groups involves (per Grumpity), I have no idea if it is relevant.

Having groups with land in it would seem to me to be a big problem -- the whole business of determining which group a given piece of land is in, such as to return prims from it, is likely a problem. On my end, I can say it's an endless annoyance. I wish that if you were owner of a group and land parcel, regardless of the tag you have on, it would simply put it in the right group for you. But that may be a programming nightmare.

The group is apparently always scanning to see what role a member has -- but then, how else can you have the variety of powers you need to run rentals or events or any kind of business? I just don't know what is involved in trying to differentiate groups so that some groups don't have any functions in them that cause lag and programming headaches, but maybe socializing groups that only involve chat and a tag could be a "group lite" that is freed of the kinds of scanning of permissions you need to determine who can return prims from land, who can ban, etc.

 

 

 

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