A brief note on pricing changes, which ran long.

[Selene Gregoire]

7 hours ago, Mollymews said:

We would own Universal of which You Tube would be a subsidiary, etc etc

Screw YouTube. I want the Star Trek franchise!

[Selene Gregoire]

6 hours ago, Mollymews said:

what LL are doing is stuff like CDN, which has significantly changed my SL experience for the better. I now get content delivered to me from a data center in Australia rather than previously from a data center in the US. LL have plans to take this approach further, more and more content onto servers closer to users where ever they are in the world   

 

Well now, that sounds like a very plausible and logical reason for the recent premium fee hike. I think you just hit the nail on the head E... I mean Molly.

[Mollymews]

4 hours ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Well now, that sounds like a very plausible and logical reason for the recent premium fee hike

the server side work that LL are doing does require resources yes. This work sometimes gets a bit overlooked when we are more focused on our stuff, and not so much on the delivery of the stuff

pretty much delivery systems are not really thought about at all by every day people, other than when we don't get our stuff

a bit like the Post Office, how the mail/parcels get sorted and delivered. For many of us its all some kinda abstraction. When the cost of postage goes up then we grumble a bit even tho we have some idea that the Post Office has mail/parcel sorting centers and delivery systems that all have to be paid for,. As do improvements to those centers and delivery systems

[Selene Gregoire]

2 hours ago, Mollymews said:

the server side work that LL are doing does require resources yes. This work sometimes gets a bit overlooked when we are more focused on our stuff, and not so much on the delivery of the stuff

pretty much delivery systems are not really thought about at all by every day people, other than when we don't get our stuff

a bit like the Post Office, how the mail/parcels get sorted and delivered. For many of us its all some kinda abstraction. When the cost of postage goes up then we grumble a bit even tho we have some idea that the Post Office has mail/parcel sorting centers and delivery systems that all have to be paid for,. As do improvements to those centers and delivery systems

Good thing there are (usually) a few around who do think about such odd things.

Sometimes though, there are better ways to accomplish the ends without the means digging into people's pockets so deeply they can't afford to enjoy life even the least little bit. I think everyone deserves some enjoyment out of life (regardless of income or lack thereof), otherwise it's not worth having to live in a hell created by the same society that denies them the right to well... for lack of a better way to put it, "the pursuit of happiness" as it states in the Declaration of Independence. Another one of those things people conveniently forget about. In the US that is. Can't speak for the rest of the world since I've never had the means to live anywhere else.

[Mollymews]

53 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Sometimes though, there are better ways to accomplish the ends without the means digging into people's pockets so deeply they can't afford to enjoy life even the least little bit. I think everyone deserves some enjoyment out of life (regardless of income or lack thereof), otherwise it's not worth having to live in a hell created by the same society that denies them the right to well... for lack of a better way to put it, "the pursuit of happiness" as it states in the Declaration of Independence. Another one of those things people conveniently forget about. In the US that is. Can't speak for the rest of the world since I've never had the means to live anywhere else.

we are opening up a big line of thought and consideration here

i think tho that most societies work out where the bottom of their society for people should be. And then try as best they can to work toward achieving it. Is not easy this due to all the competing interests of the individuals involved, but I do think that overall we do try. Like when we look at our societies today and compare them to say 100 years ago, 200 years ago and so on, then we as body of people are better off than people back in those times. We generally live longer, we are generally more healthy, more educated, fewer infants die now than they did, etc

what I think greatly influences our thoughts on a personal level, is how our own situation compares to others within our own society. When so then its more about personal income relative to the costs, rather than the costs themselves. Which is a whole topic in itself

a thing about this tho that sometimes astonishes people when talking about where the bottom of society should or could be, is that things like state-provided (tax-payer funded) welfare, and more recently wealth distributive things like universal basic income, are necessary components of capitalist systems. Without them then capitalist societies turn into merchantilist societies and begin to unravel. More and more people end up at the bottom. When so then if unchecked then it reaches a tipping point and it all goes up in flames. History shows us this, and no doubt some if not many people living at those times prior to it all flaming out, could ever conceive that it would, even when it was happening

when we do look at the writings of capitalist thinkers, as opposed to merchantilists, then we find quite a bit of thought on why the bottom can't be too low relative to the society to which the bottom applies.  Even when that bottom can be higher than a society in another country

[Selene Gregoire]

16 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

we are opening up a big line of thought and consideration here

i think tho that most societies work out where the bottom of their society for people should be. And then try as best they can to work toward achieving it. Is not easy this due to all the competing interests of the individuals involved, but I do think that overall we do try. Like when we look at our societies today and compare them to say 100 years ago, 200 years ago and so on, then we as body of people are better off than people back in those times. We generally live longer, we are generally more healthy, more educated, fewer infants die now than they did, etc

what I think greatly influences our thoughts on a personal level, is how our own situation compares to others within our own society. When so then its more about personal income relative to the costs, rather than the costs themselves. Which is a whole topic in itself

a thing about this tho that sometimes astonishes people when talking about where the bottom of society should or could be, is that things like state-provided (tax-payer funded) welfare, and more recently wealth distributive things like universal basic income, are necessary components of capitalist systems. Without them then capitalist societies turn into merchantilist societies and begin to unravel. More and more people end up at the bottom. When so then if unchecked then it reaches a tipping point and it all goes up in flames. History shows us this, and no doubt some if not many people living at those times prior to it all flaming out, could ever conceive that it would, even when it was happening

when we do look at the writings of capitalist thinkers, as opposed to merchantilists, then we find quite a bit of thought on why the bottom can't be too low relative to the society to which the bottom applies.  Even when that bottom can be higher than a society in another country

Why the need and/or desire for a "bottom"? Not you, personally, of course. Humans in general. Is there not a point at which humans can get past that and all the "baggage" that goes with it? If there is no bottom, there is no top. And honestly, humans really do not have a need for the existence of a "bottom". 

You know where I'm going. lol

[Mollymews]

6 hours ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Why the need and/or desire for a "bottom"? Not you, personally, of course. Humans in general. Is there not a point at which humans can get past that and all the "baggage" that goes with it? If there is no bottom, there is no top. And honestly, humans really do not have a need for the existence of a "bottom". 

You know where I'm going. lol

bottom in the context of a capitalist society of the form in which individual pursuit of self-advancement, self-accumulation of wealth/power/control is seen by its members as beneficial, for at least most of them. It becomes problematic when it stops becoming beneficial for most, most ending up at the bottom

like you are referring to, communal societies have a whole other view on this, starting with as you say: Why would we ever need a bottom? Or put another way; What is it about a society that creates the need for  a state welfare system, when a society can be arranged differently

 

[bigmoe Whitfield]

100% passing on a streaming version of SL.  I'll stick with what I am using now. k, Thanks.

[Selene Gregoire]

7 hours ago, Mollymews said:

bottom in the context of a capitalist society of the form in which individual pursuit of self-advancement, self-accumulation of wealth/power/control is seen by its members as beneficial, for at least most of them. It becomes problematic when it stops becoming beneficial for most, most ending up at the bottom

Doesn't answer why but it was rhetorical since no one really cares to know the answer. No one wants to see themselves in that light.

Quote

like you are referring to, communal societies have a whole other view on this, starting with as you say: Why would we ever need a bottom? Or put another way; What is it about a society that creates the need for  a state welfare system, when a society can be arranged differently

It goes far beyond just that. But don't even suggest that it is possible to have a society where prisons don't exist. The disbelief is palpable because they can't learn to think any other way.

[KanryDrago]

1 hour ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Doesn't answer why but it was rhetorical since no one really cares to know the answer. No one wants to see themselves in that light.

It goes far beyond just that. But don't even suggest that it is possible to have a society where prisons don't exist. The disbelief is palpable because they can't learn to think any other way.

It is possible to have a society where prisons don't exist, merely execute those that kill because they will always be a part of human society, oh and probably have to execute rapists and paedophiles too because I have sure people won't feel a few hundred hours picking litter is a sufficient punishment and those people will always exist too

[Selene Gregoire]

41 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

It is possible to have a society where prisons don't exist, merely execute those that kill because they will always be a part of human society, oh and probably have to execute rapists and paedophiles too because I have sure people won't feel a few hundred hours picking litter is a sufficient punishment and those people will always exist too

That's not quite how it was done. People were exiled and if they were lucky, it wasn't a death sentence. 

[Coffee Pancake]

22 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

That's not quite how it was done. People were exiled and if they were lucky, it wasn't a death sentence. 

You did the $uberbad, go live somewhere else.

That doesn't exactly fly in modern times. Where do they go, the next city? The next state over? Another country?

 

[KanryDrago]

42 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

That's not quite how it was done. People were exiled and if they were lucky, it wasn't a death sentence. 

So you make your criminals someone else's problem because you don't want to deal with them. How absolutely caring of you

[Selene Gregoire]

1 minute ago, KanryDrago said:

So you make your criminals someone else's problem because you don't want to deal with them. How absolutely caring of you

No. You don't get what I'm saying. Molly does. I was speaking with Molly. I'm not interested in getting into a huge argument over it. What little you are getting isn't the whole picture. Not even the basics of a beginning to build a society on. The SL forum really is not the place for it which is why I'm not going to even try to go into details. 

One person understands and it spreads from there. If not, then I've done all I can do. I can't force people to listen or see.

[Coffee Pancake]

1 hour ago, Selene Gregoire said:

The SL forum really is not the place for it which is why I'm not going to even try to go into details. 

Just shy of 1000 word derail on this page alone, and now you decide this isn't the place.

😐

[amyalka]

@Linden.@lindenlab.com One idea for the future, perhaps it can be heard somehow lol. Right now we can only take money into PayPal and Skrill, it would be good in the future to be able to take money directly to our bank accounts. WHY? Because the rate PayPal is exchanging the Dollar to Euro it is A BIG MESS! From 480$ all I got is 413 Euro, there's a huge gap because of Paypal, and I think if we could take the money directly to our bank we would've gain much more from the money we extract. Especially if you're not in US.. 

Edited June 9, 2019 by amyalka

[Beth Macbain]

wonders if we can get @Grumpity Linden or @Patch Linden to just lock up this thread now, too.

It's gotten too long for anyone to read it to learn anything about the pricing changes, and it's gone off the deep end.

[Whirly Fizzle]

I don't know if anyone posted this yet, but Mad Pea have started a petition on Change.org
https://www.change.org/p/ebbe-altberg-an-open-letter-to-linden-lab-825f27f4-6215-4041-bd6b-d107633c96b7

[bigmoe Whitfield]

2 hours ago, Whirly Fizzle said:

I don't know if anyone posted this yet, but Mad Pea have started a petition on Change.org
https://www.change.org/p/ebbe-altberg-an-open-letter-to-linden-lab-825f27f4-6215-4041-bd6b-d107633c96b7

 

Yep, I tried to inform a certain person about one of the changes they complain about is no longer needed to be on there, but nobody listens.  

[bigmoe Whitfield]

2 hours ago, amyalka said:

@Linden.@lindenlab.com One idea for the future, perhaps it can be heard somehow lol. Right now we can only take money into PayPal and Skrill, it would be good in the future to be able to take money directly to our bank accounts. WHY? Because the rate PayPal is exchanging the Dollar to Euro it is A BIG MESS! From 480$ all I got is 413 Euro, there's a huge gap because of Paypal, and I think if we could take the money directly to our bank we would've gain much more from the money we extract. Especially if you're not in US.. 

 

Fee's are always going to apply,  you have LL, then a processor of some kind,  because it has to convert from usd to euro, most likely your own bank will do that and since it's considered a wire transfer, there is a fee, now not sure what or how much that is anymore, but when I did wire transfers it was close to 15.5% for the fee,  and then you run into international banking laws and all kinds of funny regulations, I do not see a direct bank transfer happening. 

[Frankie Antonioni]

LL should accept Bitcoin. Then there would be no fees. Or better yet, accept L$ as payment for premium, and tier. No fees there either.

[Kyrah Abattoir]

21 minutes ago, Frankie Antonioni said:

LL should accept Bitcoin. Then there would be no fees. Or better yet, accept L$ as payment for premium, and tier. No fees there either.

Bitcoin very much has fees.

And Linden Lab doesn't reside in a tax haven.

[bigmoe Whitfield]

1 hour ago, Frankie Antonioni said:

LL should accept Bitcoin. Then there would be no fees. Or better yet, accept L$ as payment for premium, and tier. No fees there either.

LL pulled the 3rd party exchanges because of this, if they accept them.  I'll walk away.

[ananoelle]

1 hour ago, Frankie Antonioni said:

LL should accept Bitcoin. Then there would be no fees. Or better yet, accept L$ as payment for premium, and tier. No fees there either.

They do accept L$ as payment for premium and tier (kinda) you will have to sell them first and not cash out. Just keep a USD balance in your account to cover such things.

[Erwin Solo]

1 hour ago, ananoelle said:

They do accept L$ as payment for premium and tier (kinda) you will have to sell them first and not cash out. Just keep a USD balance in your account to cover such things.

This is true.  you can sell L$ for US$ and use that US$ to pay tier.