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Grumpity Linden

A brief note on pricing changes, which ran long.

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, AbbyFraser said:

Let's not forget those thousands of so-called "Traffic bots" from around 2007 who were members in all sorts of groups. I am sure many of those zombie accounts still exist, and still use resources that could be used otherwise. So why not simply clear out all inactive accounts that haven't logged in for let's say 5 years? Would that be an idea?

 

According to the link I posted just above your post:

Quote

As long as you're in good standing with Linden Lab (not delinquent with billing or otherwise in violation of the Community Standards and Terms of Service), your Second Life account can remain inactive as a basic membership account indefinitely. This means that your avatar and inventory will continue to be stored on the Second Life servers.

This has been LL's policy from day one. I don't think it will change. 

Edited by Selene Gregoire
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2 minutes ago, AbbyFraser said:

Let's not forget those thousands of so-called "Traffic bots" from around 2007 who were members in all sorts of groups. I am sure many of those zombie accounts still exist, and still use resources that could be used otherwise. So why not simply clear out all inactive accounts that haven't logged in for let's say 5 years? Would that be an idea?

 

If that was the case I would have lost my account. Im glad they don't clear inactive accounts like that I was inactive for 5-6 years. Leave the group cleaning up to the group owners. Not hard to filter your member list and bulk boot inactives all in one swoop. I can teach you how if needed.

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I think there would be a lot of backlash if LL took it upon themselves to across the board automatically clear inactive* accounts from groups.  Not all groups are store or event groups.  Some are personal land groups or other friends/family groups and sometimes group owners keep names in the group for sentimental reasons. 

* providing a fair definition of inactive could be determined

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5 hours ago, LeeeBlack said:

forget about new stores - after the sanctions on putting money into the game, much less money will come into the game.
This will tell you any bank employee.
In order for more money to come in and more people put money into the game - you need to lower the commission, and not raise it.

Except they haven't raised fees for putting money into the game, only for taking it out. Which, if you know anything at all about economics, is the right way to do it.

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On 5/30/2019 at 10:42 AM, Cain Maven said:

Good idea -- but why not also let the back end do this? That would also handle cases where the group creator no longer is active. Plus, some group owners may prefer the inflated count... :)

May be adding a option in group preferences to automatic eyect users that no login in certain time. f.e. I'm owner of a few groups, so I can choose select automatic eyect users since last login was at 365 days or so. And if I no use it, then system does at fix time, said, 2 or 3 years.

Now, i do it manually because having a lot of users that no be part of SL for a long time means nothing to me, only a number.

 

SaludOS/2

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25 minutes ago, Malin Sabra said:

If that was the case I would have lost my account. Im glad they don't clear inactive accounts like that I was inactive for 5-6 years. Leave the group cleaning up to the group owners. Not hard to filter your member list and bulk boot inactives all in one swoop. I can teach you how if needed.

I am glad they don't clear them out as well. I was gone for close to 5 years myself with the except of logging in once or twice for about 5 seconds in the first year or two. What with 3 deaths in the family (brother, father & MIL) during those years I just didn't have it in me to be in SL and deal with that and all the other bad things that were going on at the time. 

Things happen that we have no real control over that cause us to not log in for long periods, years even. I'm grateful LL does not simply remove accounts due to inactivity. I sincerely hope they never start.

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I wasnt talking about inactive Account but deleted Accounts. You can delete your Account but it seems like they are still there like Ghosts and the Name will not be usable for otheres. And i also did not mean  Accounts that are just a Year deleted but more then 2 Years. I think there was somewhere written on a side that you can still reopen an Account for a Year or so. (Paying a Fee for reopening it) But i am not sure wher i have read it and if its still true.

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Posted (edited)

Hands up who believes the group cropping will relieve the backend servers.

Do you really believe folks will crop the superbusy groups? I tell you a secret: they won't. They will crop old inactive groups they held on to for sentimental reasons. The results on the servers will be negligeble.

 

Edited by Fionalein
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Hey Grumpity Linden, I made a post today in another thread I started. I'm not sure if you saw it. But here it is. 

=

Ok, so LL has said that they are going to raise premium, and other fees. But I think there is a better way. It would also help get rid of some of the abandoned land.  In the sim where my store is at, there is about 43,000 sq. meters of abandoned land. Even with the increase in the amount of land that premium members can own, there is still a lot of abandoned land around. So below are some solutions that LL can adopt.

LET VERIFIED BASIC ACCOUNTS OWN 512 SQ METERS OF LAND.

Ok, if a person has a basic, but verified account, then they can own 512 sq. meters of land. They will get no stipend, and no live support. The only way for them to deed the land to a group, is if they own the group. And only one parcel of land can be deeded to the group. If they are offline for 6 moths, or more, then they lose the land. So if the person is going to be offline for a long period of time, then they should sell the land. They also can't buy land on the auctions.Also can't buy land from LL.

LETS HAVE MINOR PREMIUM.

SO lets have minor premium. Minor premium would cost about $1.75 a month, or about $12.00 a year. They will be able to own 1024 sq. meters of land, but will get no stipend, or live support. They can deed the land to a group, and it wouldn't have to be a group that they own. They could even deed it to a rental. Unlike VB, there is no time limit for how long they can be offline. They could be offline for several years. As long as they pay minor premium, then they can keep the land.

Premium Members.

LL is talking about raising premium. If they are going to do that, then why not let premium members own 1536 sq. meters of land. If you guys are going to raise the price of premium, then how about letting people own more land. This will mean that more land gets sold, and less abandoned land.

LAND TRANSACTION FEES.

Now this might make some people mad. But I think there should be land transactions fees. When you sell a parcel of land, a percentage of the sales would go to LL. The fee would be smaller for larger parcels, than smaller parcels. Here is how it would look.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1/128 Region  25 Percent
 512 m2

 
1/64 Region
 1,024 m2

 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1/32 Region     20 Percent
 2,048 m2
 

1/16 Region
 4,096 m2
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------
1/8 Region          15 Percent
 8,192 m2
 
 
 
1/4 Region
16,384 m2
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1/2 Region                  10 Percent
 32,768 m2


Entire Region
 65,536 m2
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you sell a 512 sq. meter parcel of land for 10,000 L$, then you would make 7,500 L$, and LL makes 2,500 L$. There would be no transaction fees on auctions, or on estates. With more people being able to own land, this will make land prices go up. The higher the price, the more LL makes.

Now you can sell land for 0L$. But you will have to sell it to a certain person. Say to a friend. You just couldn't put sell for 0 L$, and have no name entered into the field. Now, I have just mentioned land, but what about the L$ amount that premium members get each month.S

SHOULD MORE LINDENS BE GIVE OUT EACH WEEK?

Well if LL were to give out more L$ each week, that would make prices go up. Kind of like Germany after WW I. But there might be another way.

Let people be able to pay premium, and tier to LL, with L$.  Lets say 25,000 L$ a year. That is $100.00 a year. If LL is going to stick with the new $99.00 for premium, then let the premium members pay with L$. There would be no cash out. Premium members might have to pay more if they pay with L$. There is also an added bonus. Fewer L$ in circulation. Now the L$ has more buying power.

LL could increase the stipend to 500 L$ a week, but a lot of that would be going back to LL.

LETS HAVE TWO EVENTS.

Lets have two events, instead of one. One of the events is for spam. It is ok to spam the events for spam. There would be a 5 L$ fee for each spam. You can send up to 10 spams a day. Each time it would cost 5 L$. The posting in the spam events would stay up for 7 days. Spam Events would look like the regular events. I did a search today in events, for the word money. There were 5 listings, and 4 of those were from the same person. If you spam in the regular events, then you will be find 20 L$ for each spam.

I would like for some one at LL to look at what I posted.  Would LL make more money? If so, how much more would they make? I don't know how to set up a poll on here. But how many would go for the minor premium if it was offered? For those that are verified basic, how many of you be wiling to buy land? The land would be 512 sq. meters. How many basic members would like to try minor premium? The post that Grumpity Linden made is now 29, or more pages. So everybody might want to start posting here. 

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Posted (edited)

Who is LL to decide which groups to lose anyway ? Most of my groups are from clubs or places where I dj and need those to have access to their stream, tipjars and shoutcast boards.

 

Oh, what about those groups on free accounts where the person question has paid for to join it ?

Edited by Dorientje Woller
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On 5/30/2019 at 4:40 PM, Wulfie Reanimator said:

 This is why I'm asking for someone to give some kind of a concrete example. How much are you cashing out? How often? (And most importantly:) How much of a difference does the 2.5% actually make in the total you get into your bank account? I understand these are pretty personal questions, but it's very difficult to relate when all you hear is "the sky is falling, believe me."

ok. time for some answers .lol. on my main account ,as a small creator, i make  around 70 $ in a bad month, 110$ in a good one. this is the profit, after i pay all my bills.usually, after I exchanged 100-120 $ i sent them to process credit ( you have to process more than 100 because is 2,5% now but is minimum 3$/trade so it need to be more than 100). and i do this thing once at every couple of months, because i don't cash out every penny i made. I have a life here too :) and you cannot resist to a nice pair of shoes, or some nice new hair etc. so for me, the increase is not a big deal . i already spend around 40-50$ /month in sl, so i really don't care about 2-3 $ more. ( yeah, hate me, but i am on lindens side here. )

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SL live music relies on groups. Yes, a lot of musicians have subscribos, but you know what, I hate having to be on a subscribo when I don't have space for the group because firstly I can't participate in group chat and secondly, when the notices for an imminent gig go out, the subscribo messages are too easy to miss. I want and need to be in more groups, not fewer!

Is the reduction in groups going to persuade me to become a premium member? No, absolutely not. Will the reduction in groups be yet another SL irritation that drives me to spend less time and money here? Yes, absolutely.

If there was some sort of half-way house between free membership and premium membership, of a couple of USD a month (max 3USD), then I'd consider it if it provided me with 100 group slots.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Jo Yardley said:

Because some people don't want to have people who were a part of their SL~ but aren't anymore.... removed from their groups, even if it is for expediency ~ that sentimental value is sometimes more important.

Edited by polysail

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6 minutes ago, polysail said:

Because some people don't want to have people who were a part of their SL~ but aren't anymore.... removed from their groups, even if it is for expediency ~ that sentimental value is sometimes more important.

for some it could be more than "sentimental" but emotional.  an SL (or RL) mother/father/spouse/child/master/slave/whatever dead...one morning, log on to find they are "gone"...that could sometimes be a second 'death' also.

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2 hours ago, Selene Gregoire said:

You have to ask a Linden for their bear these days. If they have one they will give you a copy. Some will be copy/mod some will be copy/no mod. They are all no trans though. At least the few I've acquired are. Some are very prim heavy as well but still nice to put on display once in a while when you have the LI available.

Just today, a Linden visited my LRC hub in Tensel Moor, which needless to say I totally fangirled but was able to talk about what the Linden Road Community is about - Anyway, I was so excited that I had forgot to ask for a bear, but I had not to fear because this particular Linden did ask if I would like one of his bears to which I said 'Yes please!' 
Also, a friend of mine recently acquired some abandoned land and through the live chat feature asked the Linden that was working with her about a bear - though they didn't have one. 
So, sometimes a Linden will offer their bear and others you have to ask - but just take no chances - whenever you see or speak with a Linden always ask for a bear:) 
It's one of the traditions that makes SL so very SL and it's wonderful! 
 

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4 minutes ago, Fyrebird Courier said:

for some it could be more than "sentimental" but emotional.  an SL (or RL) mother/father/spouse/child/master/slave/whatever dead...one morning, log on to find they are "gone"...that could sometimes be a second 'death' also.

That was more or less what I was implying~ without stating specifically.

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1 hour ago, Gekischa Amaterasu said:

I wasnt talking about inactive Account but deleted Accounts. You can delete your Account but it seems like they are still there like Ghosts and the Name will not be usable for otheres. And i also did not mean  Accounts that are just a Year deleted but more then 2 Years. I think there was somewhere written on a side that you can still reopen an Account for a Year or so. (Paying a Fee for reopening it) But i am not sure wher i have read it and if its still true.

You can't reopen an account that has been deleted though. That is why LL does not actually delete accounts. Once they are gone, they are gone. LL does not reuse user names. I have never encountered any site that does. I've never heard of any game, website etc that does that. It's a very bad idea. For a number of reasons. Legal and security wise.

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O  now i get it ,,,, asking the linden for a bear ,,, or them giving one,,,,, its a tradition,,,,,wow ,,

, here i was thinking they were giving away  a beer.  i need to get new contacts 

 

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Posted (edited)

Here is an idea why don't LL create a poll and ask premium members if they want / need more groups to the detriment of basic accounts?

5 hours ago, Selene Gregoire said:

I could almost guarantee (almost) the outcome would be in favor of what is already in the works. Frankly, enough of the premiums really don't care about others' needs or wants as long as they get what they want.

If you asked me I'd say that Linden Lab didn't go far enough. Not only should basic accounts have the number of groups reduced but so should the premiums. It was a mistake to give us so many groups in the first place. They were not designed to be used as they are being used today. It's broken!!! Too broken to be fixed! Groups need to be used as they were intended when we were only given 10. 

We need a new system for advertising and running huge RP communities. It just boggles my mind that any RP group/land group would need 10+ groups to run their business.

As a side note, I also think they've given us too many attachment points.

Edited by Blush Bravin
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3 hours ago, Malin Sabra said:

Topic has turned in to Cake and Bears.

🤔 🚆

How very “gay”! 😹

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4 hours ago, Grumpity Linden said:

 

We have approximately 90,000 basic members with 36 or more groups.  We have approximately 10,000 premium subscribers with 55 or more groups.  This is not a 1:1 change.  Does that help with the confusion?  

 

Just 90,000? That doesn't sound like a lot in the grand scheme of things. How will this help improve SL overall? I find it hard to believe that just 90,000 people with extra groups is impacting SL's performance that much. It is not like all 90k are online all the time or chatting in all those extra groups at once. Only thing I can figure is the profile images you are forced to download every time of these groups pop open.

Surely this might be more of a design flaw with the server software or viewers that needs tweaking to improve the quality of SL overall. I really would love to see how much of an impact having all those groups really are cause if it is that bad. I'll glad trim off the excess groups if it means those around me have a better experience.

Fyi, I am one of those basic members who is impacted by this. I tried premium in the past but there was nothing there really enticing me. I rather spend my money buying lindens and supporting content creators by buying their stuff. Now while the ability to speak with Live Support was nice, they never did help me with a serious griefer/stalker problem I and my friends had despite the constant messaging to Support and AR reports. A griefer problem that persist over a year. I'm not exaggerating.

So no with the poor customer support, the gradually rising cost of fees, performance bugs like that dreaded tp-in/out bug and now this I really don't see a reason to get premium. Granted you guys have done a fantastic job fixing bugs and improving things over the past few years so I very much appreciate it. I'm not trying to be negative and attack you or LL. I'm just stating my experience with it.

Right now I just see no value with premium membership, even with the new linden homes. I made a list of suggestions in page 3 of this thread which got some support. Surely there must be ways to tackle this problem without removing people's groups. Surely there must be new incentives, new things you and your company can do to try to generate more money.

We love SL and we know SL isn't going to magically become the next Fortnite or FF15 but it is our place, it is our home and we love it here. We expect you guys to take care of, take care of us, and improve this wonderful world we created. A world that breaks all norms and has become something truly special. So please from the content creators who run businesses within them, to the communities within SL who need them, to the people who like to sit at home and just chat in groups all day long; please reconsider this decision.

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11 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

Here is an idea why don't LL create a poll and ask premium members if they want / need more groups to the detriment of basic accounts?

If you asked me I'd say that Linden Lab didn't go far enough. Not only should basic accounts have the number of groups reduced but so should the premiums. It was a mistake to give us so many groups in the first place. They were not designed to be used as they are being used today. It's broken!!! Too broken to be fixed! Groups need to be used as they were intended when we only given 10. 

We need a new system for advertising and running huge RP communities. It just boggles my mind that any RP group/land group would need 10+ groups to run their business.

Nothing is too broken that some code wizard monkey can't fix it. All depends which monkey and how long you leave him/her pounding at the problem.

tenor.gif?itemid=4769770

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90,000 people * 7 groups per person = 630,000 group memberships * the average group size of dunno ... 400?  Is 242 Billion connections that would be saved.

Seems reasonable to me.

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instead of taking away something that we already had and are use to (42 groups) and making so many people leave slwhen traffic seems to be slowing anyways....heres an idea for LL to help save "resources"! why not delete anything not sold or used or rezzed in sl since before 2007? 2010? omg every time you look on mp is way outdated thiings that im pretty sure noone buys thats just taking space on servers. and with a small program searching uuids im very sure this is completely possible. instead of ruining sl and making so many just get tired of less for more

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