Jump to content
Grumpity Linden

A brief note on pricing changes, which ran long.

Recommended Posts

a thing that helps merchants a little bit is that the cost to your customers to buy L$ hasn't been increased. In a where is the good news in all this for merchants then I think that's good.  Had LL increased the cost of buying L$ then that would have hurt the customers, bleeding thru to merchants on top of increased merchant fees

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Cain Maven said:

No, I have not forgotten about the $20 cut in full region tier. It is a step in the right direction, although it will clearly not lead to dramatic changes. And it does not come close to making up for the doubled credit processing fee.

Actually, it most certainly does if the person cashing out cashes out less than $400/owned full region/month.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

a thing that helps merchants a little bit is that the cost to your customers to buy L$ hasn't been increased. In a where is the good news in all this for merchants then I think that's good.  Had LL increased the cost of buying L$ then that would have hurt the customers, bleeding thru to merchants on top of increased merchant fees

I agree. But that's maybe more in the "not worse" column than in the "better" column? :)

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Cain Maven said:

I agree. But that's maybe more in the "not worse" column than in the "better" column? :)

true. but not worse is better than worse :)

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

 

2 hours ago, Grumpity Linden said:

Fees to process credit are going up

I accept that this fee has to go up. What is unacceptable to me is that it has doubled. 

Edited by Lulu Rage
  • Like 8
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Actually, it most certainly does if the person cashing out cashes out less than $400/owned full region/month.

Fair point -- although I'm not sure how many creators that applies to? I would imagine that those who cash out less than $400 / month may not have a full region, as tier would account for over 60% of revenue. I do agree that it doesn't hit all creators equally, though.

In any event, I'm surprised that LL didn't increase the Marketplace fees first. The current 5% certainly is below "industry standards" and raising it might provide some revenue as well as having the positive side effects of encouraging creators to maintain in-world stores instead of only being on Marketplace.

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I feel like I want to pick up my pitchfork and burning torch every time we get one of these posts but then...

I think back to the early days of my time in SL. A time of prims, system clothing, no linked messaging functions, no homesteads, the average rental cost of a 1/4 sim around 8k Lindens a week with full sim rentals being around 22-26k per week. A time when Mono was not a thing and animesh and mesh in general was a desperate wish the lindens declared a loud authoritative no to the idea of. And you definitely had no hope of LL providing you with pre built premium houses...and I think...things aren’t that bad really.

  • Like 12
  • Thanks 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Grumpity Linden said:

We're open to suggestions, quite seriously.  One project currently in progress is an update to Events.  Hopefully by making events more useable, some of the group functionality can be absorbed there.  

Truly fixing events so that they work would help, but not everything that is done in a group can be done in events.  If the reason being given for reducing the number of groups for non-premium is strain on the system, yet the number of groups for premium members goes up *again*, that doesn't really add up.  It feels like manipulation to get people to pay premium.  

Perhaps explaining what it is about current group functionality that puts that much strain on the system would help people understand why this choice is being made.  I know I have read posts for years where people have talked about fixing groups and if anything, it is worse now than it was 5 years ago.

I would suggest that new groups moving forward do not have the option for group chat and a limit on notices per week, and if the person setting up the group wants chat or more notices, they can pay a higher group set up fee to help pay for whatever it takes to fix the group functionality.   Or a limit on group members in any group or something....  For example, how many land ownership groups really need group chat or the ability to send out a lot of notices?  Also, I am going to bet there are many groups that aren't even used - what about a process that, if the group has not been active and does not have any land holdings, deletes the group?  Many platforms have this.  

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm still somewhat on the fence about this. Part of me thinks, "Well played!" First they make going Premium a whole lot more attractive, what with the new Linden homes and all, and then they up the fees! A less 'tinfoil' way to look at this, LOL, is to simply realize that they went out of their way to make Prenium a lot better, and that, especially after a whole decade, we shouldn't be surprised prices are adjusted a bit accordingly.

The only thing I am slightly worried about/don't particularly like, is them doing away with quarterly fees. It feels like a bit of an unnecessary money-grub (to get a huge influx of cash all at once?). Upping the rates is one thing, asking for a whole year upfront is quite another, and may be cost-prohibitive for some. But, then again, they don't force annual on existing Premium members.

Tl;dr: I can see the good, and also the (potential) bad. Hence, I'm still on the fence with all of this. :)

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Grumpity Linden said:
  • We’re not lowering limits out of spite, groups really are quite a strain on our back end for a variety of painful historical reasons, including overloading group functionality instead of having other tools.  This subject alone is worth a novel liberally sprinkled with tears. So anyway, we don’t hate basic users, and in fact we work hard to retain our free-to-play offering as one of the most generous across many industries. But yes, no big surprise, we do want to nudge active residents to become subscribers, because we think it’s a great value, and - as many have noted - we’re also running a business. But no, we're not shutting our doors to non-premium residents. Rumors of our insanity and villainy have been slightly exaggerated.  

This would be easier to believe if you weren't raising the limits for Premium members at the same time. Let's face it, LL isn't run on a shoe-string, SL has funded Sansar (or that is popular belief) and will continue to do so as it doesn't seem to be taking off in the way it was hoped.  You're purely and simply hoping that the people using SL for no fee will 'feel the pinch' of being a standard member and pay up to go Premium. I used to have Premium membership and paid it gladly when I could afford to do so. Now I'd rather eat my own feet than be shoehorned into it by the company's shortsighted vision and - it seems to me - a basic lack of understanding about economics.

But thank you for explaining it so us in such a cute way, it sure does make us feel we're making a fuss about nothing and shouldn't worry our pretty heads about it.

  • Like 21
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Increasing the process credit fee to 5% is a 100% increase from 2.5%, that I believe is completely unfair and targeting the main economic source for SecondLife. The majority of creators in SL make things for the soul purpose to make money from it - some people make for fun but most do not. Targeting the people who make clothes, bodies, accessories, buildings, etc... these people are the main back bone for SL and targeting them is wrong and will almost certinaly affect the economy if people are unable to keep their income.

One of my good friends is a creator and relies completely on their SL income to pay bills, rent, buy food, etc. As an example say they withdraw $1000 USD - at the moment their fee is around $25 USD, but this will increase to $50 USD each time they withdraw money. That is a food bill for a week just gone, never to be seen again, even though they will continue to earn the same amount of money in SL. Losing an extra $25 USD per month may not seem a huge amount but it very quickly adds up ($300 USD per year to be precise) and losing that amount of money is completely unfair.

The increase for Premium is fair in my opinion as prices have gone up in most aspects of the world and increasing Premium while giving people more features is a fair exchange. What is unfair is removing a huge number of groups from Basic members, especially since (from my experience) the majority of members have a Basic membership and removing so many groups from the majority of your shoppers and spenders is another unfair punishment.

I can not comment on the land aspect as I do not own land - I rent from a 3rd party - so I won't add my two cents here as I don't have any experience in that field.

TL;DR: A 100% incrase in process credit is unfair and targeting the wrong people and will almost certianly affect the SL economy if people are unable to make money from their SL stores anymore and are forced to find different sources of income.

 

Edited by sourapplepie
  • Like 18
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Syo Emerald said:

You going to gurantee for that...how exactly?

How do you know the estate holders aren't just going to enjoy the passive profit increase? With other prices rising at the same time, I can easily see how a landlord might argue that they are going to use that money to cover for additional costs for membership and exchange.

 

I rent a Homestead from one of the Anse Chung subsidiaries. They may or may not pass along the savings, but you're right: that's by no means certain, of course.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
I understand price increases coming with innovations and I really like to pay for my favorite hobby 
(at least as long as I can afford it financially) but the only explicit reason to the topic 
of free account reduction is  are quite a strain on our back end? 7 groups are 
deducted for free player and 10 for premium added. I like to quit on 7 and take only 3 more 
groups so that the free players can keep their conditions! also in offline IM's it will be 
deducted 10 for free members and 30 added to the premium members. here I say increased by 20 not 30 so that the 
free players can keep on their existing conditions.

and price rising while premium members don´t have the same conditions is unfair. why dont finish the continent and THEN rise the price? 
Edited by Sarralie
  • Like 11

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Sarralie said:

price rising while premium members don´t have the same conditions is unfair. 

whát is different about the conditions for premium members?

you didn't answer that in your previous post either, but to clarify there is NO difference.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On the whole groups thingy, personally I didn't need an increase to 70. In fact, one could argue that doing so only encourages 'laziness' in ppl (as in them not feeling the need to clean out old, unused groups). 60 really was already a lot.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought the move to amazon servers was going to help reduce operating costs. This hit on basic accounts is going to hurt communities and in general make people more cynical and spiteful. You give with one hand and you take with another. Honestly, this is not how you make premium account more attractive.

What I see happening now in response to this folks being online a lot more. First people will leave themselves online through their phone or tablet just so they don't miss any messages or notices. This will put a drain on linden systems as there will be online zombies lingering about hogging network data and resources. Secondly, people will slowly stop using groups and just use discord which for the short term might look good but these communities will no long be tied to SL, they have discord to keep them connected. So the moment SL pisses off the majority of said community they'll leave all at once to find a new place together. Groups in SL kept people in SL with their communities that only exist in SL. This group limit reduction is shooting yourself in the foot.

I get that LL wants to making premium accounts more attractive but this isn't doing it. Not at all. I have a free account and I choose to stay free because there is literally nothing attractive to me on the premium account that makes it worth the cost. Instead I spend that money on lindens which goes to pay land owners and content creators who in turn pay LL. So to me I don't get it.

But you know to avoid sounding entirely negative. Here's some ideas to make premium more attractive that you could immediately implement:

1) Zero upload costs... limited to say 20? uploads per day/week or whatever before the upload costs return.

2) Actual good customer service that deals with griefers and drama, especially when there is a track record of it.

3) Higher min group requirement. Make it like 20? 50? people minimum otherwise you pay fees.. 10L per week? UNLESS you are premium.

4) Reduced fees for buying lindens while premium. You got them on the premium hook, do you really need to milk every transaction? Lower fees, means more impulse buying.

5) Allow private sim owners to expand sim size. Just literally make it bigger. LI can be the same. This way people could do races, or more indepth RP layout instead of stacking sim builds to skyboxes at various heights.

6) Promotional deals. Pick a content creator to promote, and on their marketplace page do a limited time discount. LL will ensure the creator still gets the full value of their products (ex: 1,000L) while the customers pay a discount amount (like 10%) so customers pay 900L, Linden labs pay the missing 100L, the creator still gets 1000L. All this to encourage impulse buying and improve brands and creators LL support and like.

Long term changes LL can do to make premium more attractive:

1. Allow sims to hold more than 40 avatars! This right here is killing your land business anyway. When Truth, blueberry or other stores do sales, it is jam pack for days and it does turn away some people from dropping in and buying stuff. Fix this.. some how...

2. Inventory preview wear option? Some wardrobe window maybe? So I don't have to wear the outfit just to see what it is cause the creator didn't include a photo. Plus then others won't have to render my outfit nor the sim.

3. Better notice system. Seriously why do notices count as offline messages? This should be client side, entirely. When did you log out? Ok now check for notices that popped in afterward... bam here you go.

4. Add a dating service for premium users? Silly, cheesy, bad taste.. I know.. but you know there's a market for it.

5. Give away outfits. In a game where there are no monsters to grind for gear and no way to generate cash without spending cash (upload costs and all). Most new players have 1 or 2 outfits at most to use and relying on freebies or anything extra which is just terrible. They get shunned, ignored and usually not welcomed without a remotely decent avatar. So for new arrivals let them pick an outfit from the marketplace (from a list you approve of) and make it free (aka you, LL buy it for them). Do this every 5 days for 30 days to keep them logging in regularly. Hey mobile tactics are profitable use'em. :P

Secondly, by implementing a system where you give new players a free outfit you can now put this as a feature for premium users! Add it to their weekly stipend.

6. Share (some) premium benefits to friends! Maybe your 3 best friends can now also access premium areas. Or get virtual gifts. Priority access to sims (at least from other basic accounts but not premium) Maybe something I mentioned above but reduced. Either way, share the benefits!

 

I'm sure the community here can come up with other ideas of how to make premium more attractive to people. In general, don't assume every listed benefit you create or I listed will be used by everyone, all the time. Some get premium for one reason (like support) and that's it. So if you can share the benefits, friends will get it just to give something to someone they care about.

Don't forget what makes people log back into SL everyday is the communities and people they met. Sure some are in it for the money, to create content, but majority of people are here to make connects with others, make friends and be apart of a community. Promote that, build around that and you'll have more retention which means more money casually spent. You don't have to force. Some of us drops $50 or more on a weekly basis without a second thought for ourselves and for our friends. So please, be considerate of the communities you are impacting by this move.

 

  • Like 12
  • Thanks 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Fox Wijaya not enough new lindenhomes yet alot of people have premium and cant get the new linden home because theres not enough thats a diffrent to me. it does not concern me because i have a new premium home on bellissaria i have to pay my premium year membership in the end of the year whats ok to me as i said i love to support my fav hobby ! but it is a diffrent atm but people have to pay more money soon for membership without having a new lindenhome and i think this is a big diffrent i understand why people are angry now.

  • Like 7
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Sarralie said:

@Fox Wijaya not enough new lindenhomes yet alot of people have premium and cant get the new linden home because theres not enough thats a diffrent to me. it does not concern me because i have a new premium home on bellissaria i have to pay my premium year membership in the end of the year whats ok to me as i said i love to support my fav hobby ! but it is a diffrent atm but people have to pay more money soon for membership without having a new lindenhome and i think this is a big diffrent i understand why people are angry now.

not enough Linden homes? there are 38.000 on the older sims, ánd there is the 1024 tiere level (+10% if you use it smart) it's not like they sell a car with only 3 wheels or no engine.
The only thing that's asked arount the new batches of homes is PATIENCE, just like when the older homes were released.
This has nothing to do with differences between premiums. Everybody had the same chance to get a new home.

  • Like 5
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Angelina Sinclair said:

I thought the move to amazon servers was going to help reduce operating costs. This hit on basic accounts is going to hurt communities and in general make people more cynical and spiteful. You give with one hand and you take with another.

 

Except, of course, 'giving' is perhaps where your whole argument falls apart. They're not a charity. Much as I'd love to have everything for the cheapest price possible, with the most perks and latest innovations, in a real-world economy, someone's gonna have to pay for all of that: aka, us. :) 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

@Fox Wijaya it is a diffrence between having 175 land impact or 351 land impact and then make premium account from72 $ to 99 $ i would understand making price to 99$ after finishing the continent but if 2 people pay one price for supposed the same conditions and then the conditions between both changes i totally understand why people get angry. just my opinion

Edited by Sarralie
  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, AyelaNewLife said:

In order:

  • Why remove quarterly payment plans? They're a staple of almost every subscription-based game out there, I just can't understand why or what you gain from this. Perhaps there's a real reason somewhere... but without it, this looks like a pointless spite decision.

I personally think that is crazy. With jumping up to 99 USD PA, I'd actually think bringing in a NEW 6 monthly level would make more sense (eg, around 55 USD). It's a BIG jump from free / monthly to 99 USD in one lump, and putting levels in would encourage those who just can not afford 99 USD in one fell swoop to become Premium, thus bringing in more funds.

Edited by FreyasFashions
  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, sourapplepie said:

Increasing the process credit fee to 5% is a 100% increase from 2.5%, that I believe is completely unfair and targeting the main economic source for SecondLife. The majority of creators in SL make things for the soul purpose to make money from it - some people make for fun but most do not. Targeting the people who make clothes, bodies, accessories, buildings, etc... these people are the main back bone for SL and targeting them is wrong and will almost certinaly affect the economy if people are unable to keep their income.

One of my good friends is a creator and relies completely on their SL income to pay bills, rent, buy food, etc. As an example say they withdraw $1000 USD - at the moment their fee is around $25 USD, but this will increase to $50 USD each time they withdraw money. That is a food bill for a week just gone, never to be seen again, even though they will continue to earn the same amount of money in SL. Losing an extra $25 USD per month may not seem a huge amount but it very quickly adds up ($300 USD per year to be precise) and losing that amount of money is completely unfair.

The increase for Premium is fair in my opinion as prices have gone up in most aspects of the world and increasing Premium while giving people more features is a fair exchange. What is unfair is removing a huge number of groups from Basic members, especially since (from my experience) the majority of members have a Basic membership and removing so many groups from the majority of your shoppers and spenders is another unfair punishment.

I can not comment on the land aspect as I do not own land - I rent from a 3rd party - so I won't add my two cents here as I don't have any experience in that field.

TL;DR: A 100% incrase in process credit is unfair and targeting the wrong people and will almost certianly affect the SL economy if people are unable to make money from their SL stores anymore and are forced to find different sources of income.

 

I 100% agree with everything you said, especially regarding the credit fee. Linden Labs, please reconsider these changes!

Edited by AislynDream
  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Grumpity Linden said:
  • We’re not lowering limits out of spite, groups really are quite a strain on our back end for a variety of painful historical reasons, including overloading group functionality instead of having other tools.  This subject alone is worth a novel liberally sprinkled with tears. So anyway, we don’t hate basic users, and in fact we work hard to retain our free-to-play offering as one of the most generous across many industries. But yes, no big surprise, we do want to nudge active residents to become subscribers, because we think it’s a great value, and - as many have noted - we’re also running a business. But no, we're not shutting our doors to non-premium residents. Rumors of our insanity and villainy have been slightly exaggerated.  

With all due respect, I would like you guys to reconsider this. If the groups are causing unnecessary constraint, then perhaps they should be fixed. They should be fixed regardless of any selling points because a simple look at Jira will reveal many problems with groups that already exist. Taking away group spaces from basic members, while increasing fees, instead of working towards a permanent solution, does not sit right.

From a creator's point of view, groups play the *biggest* role in advertising our new products. It is how we get sales. How do we expect newer creators to emerge without the ability to easily recruit customers to their group? Increasing fees is one thing, actively hurting our way to sell is my biggest concern here.

I also wholeheartedly believe  that Linden Lab is more than capable of selling premium membership without taking away features from it's basic account holders. You have a very capable team there. We believe in you guys. We hold you all to a higher standard. 

I appreciate that this is a privately owned company, and you guys don't realistically owe us a thing. But I still have hope in my heart and again, respectfully, in good faith, would like you guys to reconsider this one.

  • Like 39
  • Thanks 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Sarralie said:

@Fox Wijaya not enough new lindenhomes yet alot of people have premium and cant get the new linden home because theres not enough thats a diffrent to me. it does not concern me because i have a new premium home on bellissaria i have to pay my premium year membership in the end of the year whats ok to me as i said i love to support my fav hobby ! but it is a diffrent atm but people have to pay more money soon for membership without having a new lindenhome and i think this is a big diffrent i understand why people are angry now.

 

I get what you're saying. And -- not counting the old, crappy homes -- there are indeed not enough new Linden homes to go around... yet. I mean, already living on Bellisseria, reaping the benefits of the new shiny, Premium price increases are a lot more palatable, I reckon, than to those who are still in the pipeline, waiting (for maybe months?). I get that. Honestly, I do. But the thing is, making something incredibly beautiful and new, and its inevitable scarcity, are part and parcel (pun intended) of the same deal. So, either they resolve to never make anything new and desireable, ever again, or they continue to really make wonderful improvements -- at which point scarcity will kick in. I don't see this working any other way.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Sarralie said:

@Fox Wijaya it is a diffrence between having 175 land impact or 351 land impact and then make premium account from72 $ to 99 $

no because every premium has the 351 landimpact (=1024sqm of tier).. no matter thats in one parcel for the new Linden home ór 512 mainland and old lindenhome ór 1024 mainland.

(and please do not tag people but quote, they get a message automaticly)

Edited by Fox Wijaya

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...