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A brief note on pricing changes, which ran long.

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Just now, Kyrah Abattoir said:

Freedom of speech isnt freedom of consequences.

Freedom of speech does not exist on a privately owned forum,  Since LL is a private business they can let you post or not let you post or remove the posts or what ever they want to do.

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Since LL is trying to balance land costs, any plans to lower the tiers a bit more for mainland parcels?

I would like to comment on an earlier suggestion. Someone suggested that LL not reduce the basic account's groups by 7, but instead only add 3 new group slots for premium members. That is really not a feasible suggestion because it is not a 1:1 ratio between premium and basic accounts. (Besides as a premium member, I really want those additional groups...)

Also, LL is not actually taking away the 7 slots as in making people choose 7 groups to drop. They just wont let them join any more new groups until their group count is under 35. So if someone has 42 groups and does not change any groups, they can still keep their 7 "extra" groups... (of course, in reality, most users drop/add groups frequently, so most basic users will feel this new cap. 

 

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7 minutes ago, Grumpity Linden said:

Hi Jo! You can do that today by creating Roles which cannot receive messages or participate in group chat.

That does LESS than what they wanted. That's removing features from users not adding more.

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2 minutes ago, bigmoe Whitfield said:

Freedom of speech does not exist on a privately owned forum,  Since LL is a private business they can let you post or not let you post or remove the posts or what ever they want to do.

Not the point i'm making but yeah, obviously.

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okay.  I spent 1/2 hour writing this up...but instead of it posting, i got the LL "login screen", so I want to try again, and hopefully I get as nicely written as i feel i did before.

 

#1 - Groups --

I personally like the addition of groups to premium.  Some people say that you don't need that many...Sadly, they can truly add up.  As a creator of children's clothing, i have texture groups and mesh creator groups.  Yes, to get the discount and/or gifts, but some require you to be part of it to get their items.  Then of course, you have advertising (I push some of it off to alts, but i need to do some of it on my creator alt).  And my store group.  I sell gachas, so...again, stores, advertising.  Some groups have the main group, and management groups, and then land/shop rental groups.  I have heard of situations like say you rent a parcel in a community sim, you need that group.  Want to RP on that sim? you need the RP group.  Do you moderate that RP?  Another group.  Do you do a "job" on that? (i.e. fireman, policeman, etc)....another group.  Or stores that use bloggers, a lot require another group.  So, for some, having a need for groups is beyond "hey, i want 10 groups just for the free hair, and another 10 for the free clothes".  

 

Anyway, I realize that there are reasons for the backend "cost" of groups, as far as setup and ...for lack of a better word... memory that it takes to maintain.  I would like to suggest some possibilities of different types of groups, that could help reduce some of the backend, but still allowing for the needs of people.

----Notice Only.  This would be a good type of group for stores and clubs.  Allows for the store to set MM boards/group gifts to group only, as well as send out the information that is needed about their store.  Could have a small set amount of allowed managers.  Perhaps a second level Notice Only, also, for event-type groups, where the store owners (DJ's, whatever) can send out their store notices.

----Limited People.  I feel that there are a LOT of groups out there, that are limited in people, as they are not needed.  So perhaps a Limited People group, of 10-20.  should be good for management type groups, and families (I know there are families out there that have more, of course).

----Event/Rental Time-Limited.  This could be a group, that is owned by the event/market/mall owner, and management (to me, 3-4 would seem appropriate, for invite and other management, but, i dont run events).  A non-notice, non-chat group (these all can be taken care of by regular groups, discord, or forum threads), that a person joins and doesn't actually count against their groups, and is only active in it for 24 hours, or 2 hours after the active group is changed.  Most events, you only need one setup.  And mall/market owners, you don't need it EVERY day, if it's a secondary store, so the management staff can re-invite as needed).

----Large Population Groups.  Perhaps in the circles I am in, but I do not know of many groups, who are more than, say, 1000 people, or 5000 people.  Active people.  I would think that a large group, of say 10,000 or more, could incur a monthly fee (even a dollar).  It could encourage people to go through their groups, and remove those who have not logged on for x time.  Of course, there could be some exceptions, for example (I am guessing!!!), firestorm support, caspervend support, education groups, new avatar education groups.

 

I also feel that there should/could be an alternative to taking away from the non-premium, and offering everyone a chance to get what they need.  I think perhaps an "a la carte" add-on of groups could be an option.  To me, I feel that it should be perhaps $1/month for 10 groups, for premium, and perhaps $3/month for 10 groups, for non-premium.  If this fee is not paid/deactivated, then the last 10 groups joined (no matter how many they have open) should be removed, unless they had brought their groups under the amount needed before deactivating that payment need.

 

#2 - Estate Land

I truly feel that giving discounts to the estate owners are good...however, a lot of us do feel blocked out.  I would love to own an estate land, but the setup fee and all the other fees make it very prohibitive.  I think that there are incentives that could be given to premium members, again, to help us acquire land.  One, to me, would be once per annual premium payment, the chance to purchase the land, without the setup fee, should be an allowed item.  I would think ONLY one estate land, per premium membership, per annual payment.  Or, slightly alternative, is to charge the setup fee, but absorb a one-month payment into it.  This second alternative, I feel may bring in more income, if it was a 2 times a year 1 day/1 weekend event, maybe.  You may not get that initial month, but more people would be able to get estate land.  

 

#3 - Mainland

Not QUITE related to the issues at hand, but may be a "perk" to offer to premium account holders, are possible "changes" to Mainland.  There is a lot of abandoned land, and it's just very...broken.  Some is very ugly, because it is so broken.  I would propose that for those premium members that own land on a sim, that has abandoned land, that people can request it (under the same regulations as the past), for free, up to the next tier level.  I.e. you own 2048, you could get 2048 for free, to bring you up to 4096.  Obviously you have to pay the tier, and you have to have pre-existing land (perhaps you have to own it for 6 months or so, not just move in, and try to get the other free land).

Alternatively, another idea.  I own parcels on a sim, that has ended up looking like a pixel snake, some wider, some smaller.  weaving in and out of current participants.  I would love the ability, to consolidate it, and either move to a square/rectangular parcel on that sim, or another sim.  (equivalent type, no matter that i would love to move to a beachfront parcel.  *giggles*).  I think this could open up some larger parcels, that people could purchase, or could work to help make some parcels look "neater", if there aren't small parcels all over one, instead of buying a lot of small parcels on a sim "just for prims", you can decorate larger areas.  

The other option I would love, kindof combined with the above, is combining land from different sims into one.  for example, there is a full sim near me for sale. I would love to be able to take my land from the 2 sims that i own, have it on there, then pay the difference for that land.  Not quite the right example, as this mainland sim is owned by another person, but if he abandoned it, i would love that possibility.  Again, in my mind, possible prettier sim, more land opened in others, and possibly more people purchasing mainland, if they could have a possibility of making it a little more of what they want, instead of small/tiny parcels.

 

KK, after typing this all out for the 2d time, i am hoping this posts...a little long winded, but i hope these are ideas that might be viable.  Or...at least let me vent in a semi-productive way.  *smiles*

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1 minute ago, Fyrebird Courier said:

okay.  I spent 1/2 hour writing this up...but instead of it posting, i got the LL "login screen", so I want to try again, and hopefully I get as nicely written as i feel i did before.

 

#1 - Groups --

I personally like the addition of groups to premium.  Some people say that you don't need that many...Sadly, they can truly add up.  As a creator of children's clothing, i have texture groups and mesh creator groups.  Yes, to get the discount and/or gifts, but some require you to be part of it to get their items.  Then of course, you have advertising (I push some of it off to alts, but i need to do some of it on my creator alt).  And my store group.  I sell gachas, so...again, stores, advertising.  Some groups have the main group, and management groups, and then land/shop rental groups.  I have heard of situations like say you rent a parcel in a community sim, you need that group.  Want to RP on that sim? you need the RP group.  Do you moderate that RP?  Another group.  Do you do a "job" on that? (i.e. fireman, policeman, etc)....another group.  Or stores that use bloggers, a lot require another group.  So, for some, having a need for groups is beyond "hey, i want 10 groups just for the free hair, and another 10 for the free clothes".  

 

Anyway, I realize that there are reasons for the backend "cost" of groups, as far as setup and ...for lack of a better word... memory that it takes to maintain.  I would like to suggest some possibilities of different types of groups, that could help reduce some of the backend, but still allowing for the needs of people.

----Notice Only.  This would be a good type of group for stores and clubs.  Allows for the store to set MM boards/group gifts to group only, as well as send out the information that is needed about their store.  Could have a small set amount of allowed managers.  Perhaps a second level Notice Only, also, for event-type groups, where the store owners (DJ's, whatever) can send out their store notices.

----Limited People.  I feel that there are a LOT of groups out there, that are limited in people, as they are not needed.  So perhaps a Limited People group, of 10-20.  should be good for management type groups, and families (I know there are families out there that have more, of course).

----Event/Rental Time-Limited.  This could be a group, that is owned by the event/market/mall owner, and management (to me, 3-4 would seem appropriate, for invite and other management, but, i dont run events).  A non-notice, non-chat group (these all can be taken care of by regular groups, discord, or forum threads), that a person joins and doesn't actually count against their groups, and is only active in it for 24 hours, or 2 hours after the active group is changed.  Most events, you only need one setup.  And mall/market owners, you don't need it EVERY day, if it's a secondary store, so the management staff can re-invite as needed).

----Large Population Groups.  Perhaps in the circles I am in, but I do not know of many groups, who are more than, say, 1000 people, or 5000 people.  Active people.  I would think that a large group, of say 10,000 or more, could incur a monthly fee (even a dollar).  It could encourage people to go through their groups, and remove those who have not logged on for x time.  Of course, there could be some exceptions, for example (I am guessing!!!), firestorm support, caspervend support, education groups, new avatar education groups.

 

I also feel that there should/could be an alternative to taking away from the non-premium, and offering everyone a chance to get what they need.  I think perhaps an "a la carte" add-on of groups could be an option.  To me, I feel that it should be perhaps $1/month for 10 groups, for premium, and perhaps $3/month for 10 groups, for non-premium.  If this fee is not paid/deactivated, then the last 10 groups joined (no matter how many they have open) should be removed, unless they had brought their groups under the amount needed before deactivating that payment need.

 

#2 - Estate Land

I truly feel that giving discounts to the estate owners are good...however, a lot of us do feel blocked out.  I would love to own an estate land, but the setup fee and all the other fees make it very prohibitive.  I think that there are incentives that could be given to premium members, again, to help us acquire land.  One, to me, would be once per annual premium payment, the chance to purchase the land, without the setup fee, should be an allowed item.  I would think ONLY one estate land, per premium membership, per annual payment.  Or, slightly alternative, is to charge the setup fee, but absorb a one-month payment into it.  This second alternative, I feel may bring in more income, if it was a 2 times a year 1 day/1 weekend event, maybe.  You may not get that initial month, but more people would be able to get estate land.  

 

#3 - Mainland

Not QUITE related to the issues at hand, but may be a "perk" to offer to premium account holders, are possible "changes" to Mainland.  There is a lot of abandoned land, and it's just very...broken.  Some is very ugly, because it is so broken.  I would propose that for those premium members that own land on a sim, that has abandoned land, that people can request it (under the same regulations as the past), for free, up to the next tier level.  I.e. you own 2048, you could get 2048 for free, to bring you up to 4096.  Obviously you have to pay the tier, and you have to have pre-existing land (perhaps you have to own it for 6 months or so, not just move in, and try to get the other free land).

Alternatively, another idea.  I own parcels on a sim, that has ended up looking like a pixel snake, some wider, some smaller.  weaving in and out of current participants.  I would love the ability, to consolidate it, and either move to a square/rectangular parcel on that sim, or another sim.  (equivalent type, no matter that i would love to move to a beachfront parcel.  *giggles*).  I think this could open up some larger parcels, that people could purchase, or could work to help make some parcels look "neater", if there aren't small parcels all over one, instead of buying a lot of small parcels on a sim "just for prims", you can decorate larger areas.  

The other option I would love, kindof combined with the above, is combining land from different sims into one.  for example, there is a full sim near me for sale. I would love to be able to take my land from the 2 sims that i own, have it on there, then pay the difference for that land.  Not quite the right example, as this mainland sim is owned by another person, but if he abandoned it, i would love that possibility.  Again, in my mind, possible prettier sim, more land opened in others, and possibly more people purchasing mainland, if they could have a possibility of making it a little more of what they want, instead of small/tiny parcels.

 

KK, after typing this all out for the 2d time, i am hoping this posts...a little long winded, but i hope these are ideas that might be viable.  Or...at least let me vent in a semi-productive way.  *smiles*

Ok, thanks for letting us know.

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13 hours ago, Jo Yardley said:

 A Facebook clone on the SL website would be great and might also take away some of the pressure on groups.

There are few things I feel as strongly about as the outcome of that attempt - you may know them as web profiles and the profile feed.  A facebook clone is hardly possible without the facebook budget - otherwise you end up with what we have. 

Your larger point about needing better solutions than the current overloaded group system is absolutely fair, and we're very much aware of it. 

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4 minutes ago, Grumpity Linden said:

There are few things I feel as strongly about as the outcome of that attempt - you may know them as web profiles and the profile feed.  A facebook clone is hardly possible without the facebook budget - otherwise you end up with what we have. 

Like most things in SL, this sounds like it would be best suited for users to create and regulated by demand. If there are any talented independent dev teams out there looking for a project, this could be so much fun. Remember that the original marketplace was created by users and then acquired by Linden Lab. 

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41 minutes ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

Freedom of speech isnt freedom of consequences.

Obviously people will judge you based on your position and views, its how as a society we weed out bad ideas.

Its also how many in society single out people for abusive behaviour for  just having a differing opinion, not necessarily 'bad ideas'.

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50 minutes ago, Lizzy Gracemount said:

You're just as entitled... js

How so? I am not sure what you mean by this.

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8 minutes ago, Blueberryxx said:

Like most things in SL, this sounds like it would be best suited for users to create and regulated by demand. If there are any talented independent dev teams out there looking for a project, this could be so much fun. Remember that the original marketplace was created by users and then acquired by Linden Lab. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avatars_United

 

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1 hour ago, bigmoe Whitfield said:

I own a webhosting/vpn/vps business and have since 1998,  our visa CREDIT card fee's just went through the roof, so we have stopped taking them as a form of payment,  we still accept paypal which just went up and we still take mastercards which just went up,  now I'm not talking bank cards, debit cards are fine,  it's the credit cards, the processors like paypal and our other merchant accounts is where the fee's are going a bit bonkers.   

Speaking of other fee's.   depending on how LL has things setup,  payroll, power, datacenter fee's,  up and down stream providers,  all kinds of fee's.   people are way goign LL IS FORCING THIS OR THAT, when reality is, this is a business decision to help them along and keep our SL running and going.  sorry people are so upset they are just all over the place.  

Yes I know LL I know, I'm trying to be the voice of reason , Even if I'm not correct on what fee's and such are what is happening, I am giving a gist, because of the rates the fee's have gone too from my end.

LL is also based in California. You can assume everything in this state costs between 30-200000% more than it would in any other place, outside of Manhattan and Hawaii.

9 minutes ago, Grumpity Linden said:

There are few things I feel as strongly about as the outcome of that attempt - you may know them as web profiles and the profile feed.  A facebook clone is hardly possible without the facebook budget - otherwise you end up with what we have. 

Your larger point about needing better solutions than the current overloaded group system is absolutely fair, and we're very much aware of it. 

Projects to fix the various problems with groups have been going longer than Grumpity has been a Linden. xD

I think we're past the point where we just make a new group system from scratch and migrate over.

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2 minutes ago, Kadah Coba said:

I think we're past the point where we just make a new group system from scratch and migrate over.

Nothing is getting remade ever. The current lindens are stewards, nothing more.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Sweet Valentine said:

if you are making money to buy things, pay rent shop for fun things then yes i think anyone making a profit in Sl should be premium its not fair that free folks to make money and do nothing to cover the costs of having a business there...and im not taking about shopping for clothes or home decorating things that is my opinion...its how a real life business works also

@Sweet ValentineWhat about those who buy linden dollars on a regular basis and work their tails off doing jobs in Second Life (providing a service that contributes to the community is as valuable as money if not more so) for the lindens that they in turn spend and give to those who do business?

Yes, there are freeloaders in Second Life. Not all basic account users are among them.

Without basic accounts, business owners wouldn't have an audience worth talking about. I'm tired of the notion that we don't have the right to as much of the basic experience as premium members. We pay for the service too, with our time, our talents, and yes our hard earned money.

Edited by Adam Spark
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Posted (edited)

And here is my 5 cents into this topic ...
https://youtu.be/NU3zpbhajy8

Anway we all know we will have to accept whatever they will choose to do ... being a premium or just going to a basic user but that does not mean we can't express our opinion about it. At least leave the groups to basic players ... do something. People are not happy with the changes that bring more bad then good news.

 

maxresdefault.jpg

Edited by Naria Panthar
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1 hour ago, NonVoxSedVotum said:

I've been reading through this thread and the overall sense I get : entitlement. You all know that LL is a business first and foremost, but consider this : SL is NOT a necessity for you to exist in the world. If your biggest gripe is group slots and stipend amount or SL fees you live a pretty cushy life, even if you don't' believe so.  You either pay up or you move along, this is how life works-virtual or otherwise. No one is forced to make a living in SL or even use it, it's all a choice. You (we) are not entitled to anything. Your RL budget and financial limits are of no concern to anyone but you.

It does not matter if you are on a fixed income or you have a zillion dollars in the bank, things cost money. When you can't afford the things, you do without them until you can.  You really think whinging on this forum is going to change any of that? I don't care if you've been in SL since they opened the doors or 5 minutes, you pay or you move along. End of.

And yes this is a new account I made because I would rather not make myself a target by posting with my years old account, because people can be really extra like that.

You pay or move along?! I guess every company on the planet should stop soliciting feedback from their paying customers, then. We aren't entitled to these changes not happening, but we are entitled to the ability to express our displeasure.

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1 hour ago, bigmoe Whitfield said:

I own a webhosting/vpn/vps business and have since 1998,  our visa CREDIT card fee's just went through the roof, so we have stopped taking them as a form of payment,  we still accept paypal which just went up and we still take mastercards which just went up,  now I'm not talking bank cards, debit cards are fine,  it's the credit cards, the processors like paypal and our other merchant accounts is where the fee's are going a bit bonkers.   

Speaking of other fee's.   depending on how LL has things setup,  payroll, power, datacenter fee's,  up and down stream providers,  all kinds of fee's.   people are way goign LL IS FORCING THIS OR THAT, when reality is, this is a business decision to help them along and keep our SL running and going.  sorry people are so upset they are just all over the place.  

Yes I know LL I know, I'm trying to be the voice of reason , Even if I'm not correct on what fee's and such are what is happening, I am giving a gist, because of the rates the fee's have gone too from my end.

I own a RL bar and we just had our fees go up to accept credit cards and we are looking on maybe dropping taking cards after we research how much our sales comes through that route. Probably why LL raised the rates while back to buy Lindens as the CC vendors have their hands out too for their share.

39 minutes ago, Grumpity Linden said:

There are few things I feel as strongly about as the outcome of that attempt - you may know them as web profiles and the profile feed.  A facebook clone is hardly possible without the facebook budget - otherwise you end up with what we have. 

Your larger point about needing better solutions than the current overloaded group system is absolutely fair, and we're very much aware of it. 

Bet LL wish they had the FB budget. :) Maybe someone here will win the super big lotto and invest into the Labs.

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I love that that person made a whole new account to lecture people from. Because other people are "really extra". Mm. 

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I'm confused about a practice thing. My annual membership is renewable in August. Will I be able to renew it and keep that price in June, or am I out of luck because I don't renew until August. Thanks for the bullet points; answered at least two other of my confusions.

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between the 3d and 23d, you can pay for one year, that will tac onto the end of your year at august.  If you wait til August, you will pay 99.

 

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Posted (edited)

Most of what I want to say has been more eloquently said by so many others here. All I want to say is that after this announcement, I went to my one alt premium account and reverted her account to basic. I could barely afford her on premium before, but made do. Now there's hardly any incentive for me to keep two premium accounts. Ten groups more? More offline IMs? Sorry, I can't afford even that price increase for something I personally don't need.

If in the future there are more perks (ie. higher weekly stipend, higher LI limit, free choice of new LL homes), then I'll reconsider upgrading my alt back to premium. As it is now, it's a no from me.

Edit to add: I don't think it's necessarily unfair that there's a price increase. But I do think that you should add more incentives for people to want to go premium or at least stay on premium. I don't think it's a good idea to take stuff away from basic account users (like reverting to 35 groups) and expecting them to be okay with it when they contribute just as much or even more than premium members through their purchases. Give more within reason for the price increase, don't take away things that people already have.

Edited by Leti Melody
added some more commentary
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Posted (edited)

Lots of good and bad in here, which I guess is the mark of a good discussion! The main problem is that it is a discussion that should have happened well before this was set in stone, and not after. Again, LL is left  being reactive instead of proactive and getting out in front of the issue. That is a difficult position to be in.

Everyone seems to agree that land costs need to be lower. The residents have been asking for that for years and LL staff have stated several times publicly that they think so too and are working on ways to do that and offsetting the costs elsewhere. Everyone seems to agree that buying and renting server space should not be the cost of an apartment rental in the mideast US.

The problem is that for a typical sim owner who also has a business (which is a status I think would consume a LOT of sim owners) this really does not lower the price of owning land. It is actually an increase. Your just switching revenue streams, but then turning up the faucet. When you take the reduction in land cost which, let's be honest,  is pretty small, and you factor that in with the increase in premium members ship and the cost of moving even a marginal amount of $L into a paypal account (a significant increase) you have a situation where a lot of people will actually be paying MORE for their land now, not less. Prices go up and Paypal has raised there fees, but when you compare their fees percentage wise, with what the increase being implement her it looks like you are taking an awful big bite out of the pie via comparison If you really want this to hold up up, you need to cut the land prices more, or do *something* to give this value

I want LL to make more money. I think there are dozens of ways to increase revenues that would allow you to greatly offset the price of land, but this plan does not seem to have been thought out well at all. It is actually kind of a big loser for the type of resident you want to KEEP in SL. The ones that makes and gives you money! And to the staff who have pointed out that premiums have not been raised in so long and that premium members have obtained so much for that premium....come on now. First, thank you for communicating with us, sincerely, but the advantages of premium are minimal at best for the typical resident. I know you think you hit the ball out of the park with your new houses and all, but you are still just barely reaching 2015  in quality and value. Painting a new coat of paint on a house with asbestos, does not make it a bargain. Nor do I need 70 groups. In a way, i think you are only encouraging bad habits with that wierdness, then punishing the non premium resident for having good habits. Instead of a gazillion groups, which you admit isa hassle, why not provide more  mainland tier with the premium increase. You have chopped up abandoned land laying around all over the place. Make money off of it!  Either make premium a REAL premium, or get rid of it and just charge everyone a monthly fee for  using SL. There are dozens of other ways to raise revenue and I hope, if you are sincere about reducing land fees to a realistic range, you will really look across the board at what you  have to tinker with and really talk to your customer next time and come up with something that really works. 

Edited by sodasullivan
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21 hours ago, Grumpity Linden said:

We looked. We hadn’t raised premium prices in the history of premium prices in SL. Crazy!

That is pretty crazy. Here's why:

historical-inflation-rate-by-year-2019-05-31-macrotrends.png.f16555a930196cf8de93022a210a03b8.png

Historical-inflation-rate-by-year-2019-05-31-macrotrends [USA]

Let's assume, based on the graph above an average annual inflation rate in the US tallies 1.5%. This would mean that the current annual fee, inflation-corrected should be as follows,

72*(1.015^15) = US$ 90.02

So, US$ 99 is not far off the mark, given that my 1.5% was a rough estimate based on staring at a graph.

In conclusion, the actual value of cost has been decreasing* over the years and only now has LL caught up correcting the price. In other words, there's no reason to complain, but rather celebrate the fact that SL Premium has increasingly become cheaper over the past 15 (16?) years.

* Except for 2008. Thanks, Obama.

 

 

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9 hours ago, Plurabelle Laszlo said:

For no benefits at all, just to keep those 7 group slots I can't toss

Plurabelle, you don't have to pay to keep those groups.  You won't lose them until you decide to change groups.  And you could even go premium, use your 60 group slots, and downgrade - and still get to keep them.  

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3 hours ago, Jo Yardley said:

if your sim has been doing well for a few years maybe get a little tier discount, etc...

what or who decides if a sim is "doing well"?

My 'sim' is doing amazing. Few people know about it and fewer still are permitted to teleport onto it. It's my perfect oasis that I have paid for, just like anyone else who pays for one or more sims. Who is to say yours is better than mine? Or that the next person's is better than both of ours? I believe rewards for 'sims that do well' and without rules for said popularity contest, has potential to turn into a drama-llama factory. Or do you mean rewards for renting from the lab for x-amount of time equals a discount at certain milestones?

I very much agree with the logic of loyalty rewards. Time spent being active (not simply signing up many accounts) is rewarded with something useful. Evidently, group slots are popular so sure. Personally, most all of the 40ish groups I am in are silenced as far as chat and notices. I do a lot of shopping as I am forever the consumer but I have never depended on groups and their spam, to inform me of places to throw cash at. On rare occasions I'll join a group to get a freebie and leave it once I've acquired my prize.

I'm not sure if you were the one who said it (this thread is HUGE ) but I absolutely agree with premium being a requirement for selling. Both in-world and on the marketplace. This might even give the lab an opportunity for 'vendor package'. A person who wishes to sell only on MP must maintain a monthly/yearly fee. A person who wishes to sell in-world and MP pays the normal premium fee as it enables one to occupy mainland and/or island regions.

At the end of the day, a real 'perk for premium', even with the increase, would be to lower the amount of mainland required before being permitted to pay for island regions.

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