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Grumpity Linden

A brief note on pricing changes, which ran long.

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12 hours ago, Crim Mip said:

As far as raising the premium prices, I'm not upset or surprised. I'm actually more surprised it's taking so long. I think the timing stinks though. They should have gone up prior to or at the same time as the new Linden Homes were released out into the wild. As it is, there are going to be people feeling like they are getting bait and switched and not entirely without cause. You've been doing so well making premium worth getting for a lot of people who hadn't had premium accounts before and in one badly timed move, you're wrecking a lot of that good will.

I know groups have been a problem, but you don't encourage basic members to go premium by cutting a basic mainstay in SL that drastically. You will encourage people to leave doing that though. I guess that would also lower the strain on the servers. Better yet, fix the stupid code! We've heard repeatedly that it's hard and would be lot of hours of dev time. At least it would be for something people use instead of something like cough...cough..pathfinding...cough. Group function is pretty much the one legacy thing in SL that is pretty much just as crappy now as it was 10 years ago. Also, why add more groups to premium if it's an issue? 60 was more than many of us use as it was. If you'd really wanted to make it more attractive, another raise of the land allowance would have been nice. People who get a usable size parcel often find they want more and hey another 1024 is only another $7 a month with half of that coverd by the stipend. 

As for the sim prices going down, wonderful! Want to get a bunch of people and groups buying them? Cut the setup fees. There's no good reason it should cost what it does to transfer ownership and change the name of an existing sim. Does anyone other than LL themselves even create totally new sims anymore? Charge the equivalent of a month tier to do a transfer, rename, and move of location (combined, not for each) and I promise you'd have a LOT more people buying and keeping sims long term. As it is, the initial hit for doing that is just prohibitive for a lot of people. I know the group I'm part of that holds land on the mainland for our homes and some nice build areas would jump at a reduced price estate if the setup were reasonable. We already pay within $40 of that now for tier.

Your be lucky LL are running SL down for basic users soon private landlords will be gone as basic users will be gone as LL are forcing people to pay monthly 

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16 minutes ago, Diaxm said:

We are talking about the raise of Process Credit being Over the top . We know they must be a increase somewhere to maintain Secondlife Economic, i respect that . But the 2.5% Increase is Dramatic and The questions is How much every year is going to be a Increase? Is there going to be a end one day? Or every year we will face another 2.5 % ? One thing is that there must be a fees and im willing to pay but at the end of the day we are talking about processing Money to give out to Paypal. IS it going to be faster for us at least? Whats more does we get from benefit? Nothing. I dont see a reasons valuable to resonate this Ammount .

I totally agree with you aris , I really hope they take some time to answer properly to some of those questions. If this is a "marketing strategy" to increase the premium accounts I must say its a completely failure. Anyways I hope they considerer this action in less than a month without enough information for those increases. 

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Someone made a good point in one of the groups inworld: "LL made a big mistake when they made only one kind of group, and crammed  everything into it. If they had Land Groups, Social Groups, and Merchant Groups as separate things, I think would be easier. At least, wouldn't be so much hit on servers checking land permissions against groups every time you cross a sim line if most groups didn't have that."

Would it help if they were different types of groups?

Another observation: Currently in one group that is set up as a land group,  we noticed it used to be you could untick ability to rez for the "everyone" role and other roles could have the ability to rez but that's apparently not the case. Any role in a land group is able to rez on the land. Having different group types would be helpful in some cases.

 

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My idea for what it's worth @Grumpity Linden  

Premium Members - If you are going to raise the fees, raise the value included. 

• Up to 70 Groups 

• Cloud-based storage for inventory backup (if there is a sim crash or you accidentally trash and delete something, you did not just lose possibly thousands of US dollars). 

• Land and Linden allowance increase slightly (351 prims and 500L Stipend) 

• Remove service fee on purchasing linden (this promotes premium membership, and the number of times someone buys linden would not hinder anything, and they are putting more money into the economy, giving you a guaranteed monthly amount and when premium users cash it out, they would pay 4% and when basic members cash out they would pay 5%. This promotes premium memberships by giving them real added value.)

• Welcome package for new premium members (a box of goodies from LL) 

Premium Fees - Keep Quarterly options - not everyone can afford 100$ at once or wants to pay monthly, having something in-between is needed and is just better business. 

 

Basic Members 

• Up to 50 groups (This helps everyone, creators and players alike. It helps build and strengthen our economy and provides more longevity for SL. If there is an issue with groups, look at JIRA and work on fixing those issues.). 

• New Group Limits must have 20 members or more - groups owned by Non-premium members must have at least 20 people in them to stay open or be charged a weekly fee (50-100L weekly). 

•  Keep service fee on buying lindens and increase cash out fees to the 5% 

• Offer new members basic packages that they can redeem (social media type offer codes like new players receive a welcome package full of things to get started, this will drive new people to the site)

• Better tutorials and walkthroughs for new members. Linden employees who are at welcome points to help those who are new - a new position possibly that offers help to those just starting and get them into the groove of things. 

• Using Social Media to attract new players - people love a good deal and offering things to get them to start playing only builds your own economy and adds to the longevity for SL. 

 

Using tactics that promote growth rather than forcing people to do things will give you a much better outcome over the long term. 

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Hello @Grumpity Linden @Kat Linden

 

Thank you for opening this thread. I feel Kat has been the most responsive...and that Grumpity has an attitude. Another Linden with kinder words might be better suited, the flippant attitude is not appreciated.

 

As a general rule, please give us a 3 months' notice for any kind of fiscal changes...this impacts our  RL wallets, particularly those who spends hundreds and thousands.   I do believe you guys made the decision to rip the bandaid off instead of introducing changes with enough notice. TOS not-with-standing, it is common decency, and no one will care about what your TOS says if you treat your customers this way. 

In one form or another you have raised prices over the last 11 years here without enough notice. Every time, unsurprisingly, we get upset. We are the living breathing people who make your platform worthwhile to play in, and earn you money from, and many of us make a living out of this. Going forward, please give us enough notice about new fiscal changes.

THat being said, the new changes do not sit well with me, like everyone else. I feel the timing has been suspiciously close to the opening of the new homes, and that the changes take advantage of non-Premium members and force people to go PRemium...many people don't want to go PRemium and instead opt to spend in other areas of SEcond Life. I think it is unfair that you are forcing them to. I would rather that everyone have the same amount of groups and Premium does not get any extra, if that would solve your server problems.

The price of Premium going up without increased value-add of land or Lindens makes zero sense and is unwelcome in such a short amount of time.

 

 

 

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Just suggestions and thoughts please don't yell at me, argue or criticize, no replies needed thanks, not checking this thread again,

My suggestions, do away with chat pop-ups except for Mods and Owners, I disabled mine they lagged me, if people want to chat let them open it themselves!... also making members stop showing in the group windows except to owners/mods also, then less loading for all... maybe get rid of fees but I doubt that will happen, so disregard is not possible...  Do Not touch the amount of groups at all, leave them as is, it is making for too much anger, shouldn't take things away people get upset way more then when gaining nothing... As for Prices rising: raising prices should always be small and gradual in any market, annually.. years between price hikes is insanity.. inflation sucks no one likes it but slow raising, small increments once a year is not a bad choice, not many would jump on you guys for raising it 1-2 dollars a year, stop with the sticker shock, its breeds anger, most people hate change but change is inevitable, just don't shock everyone so severely, slow and gradual changes creates a calmer acceptance! Just my observations, Hope they help the Lindens some. :) have a fun SL all!

     Thanks for listening to my 2 cents, I am just a shopper who is always sacrificing groups even at 42 slots. ~Peace ☮ & 💗 💕 ❣ ℒღνe ❣ 💕 💗 & ☯ ⚖ Balance~

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3 minutes ago, VanillaBaeSUPPORT said:

Using tactics that promote growth rather than forcing people to do things will give you a much better outcome over the long term. 

SO MUCH THIS!!! ❤️

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12 hours ago, Evangeline Arcadia said:

Lol The levity is much appreciated 😀. I still think one way forward would be to have different levels of premium from a very cheap one with limited perks to higher ones with more perks. At the lower end you might well get people signing up cos it's not so expensive whereas they wouldn't have joined before, so more income for LL.  Or have add on perks that you could choose to pay for, so you have a more customised subscription package. That might be more useful for more people.

I agree with that. People have different needs. While I don't care for offline cap or whatever that is, I care about group space as I always have only a couple free slots.

Since nowadays everybody charges a group fee, it makes it a difficult decision to leave a group, yet groups are needed. Some free groups I use an alt to join them but then I can't be bothered to log in with my alt. Groups are part of the economy (=group fee to avoid spammers or for worthy rewards) and lifestyle (=group chats for DJs or Estates...). But not everybody needs that many groups, so if that is a strain, why not let people decide on how many groups they need by offering it as an add-on perk. You could still be a free member but only pay to have a group space?

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12 hours ago, Digit Gears said:

I do wonder though, did premium REALLY need 10 more group slots at expense of basic? Was 60 really not enough?

i am a premium and i approve this ^

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How about letting me sell my spare group slots? A bit like fishing quotas.

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11 hours ago, AyelaNewLife said:

 

  • Have you considered raising the weekly stipend in line with the price increase? As it currently stands, the monthly fee pays can be split up into $5 of Lindens and $4.50 of other features. Under the new prices, that changes to $7 of other features - £2.50 per month for 10 more group slots. Such value. A relatively small increase to 350L per week comes out at $6 of Lindens and $6 of other features per month, which keeps the ratio roughly the same, and means we're getting something material for pretty large price hike. 

We have to pay an extra $27 to get just 10 more group slots but stipend remain the same. Not sure if there was ever a raise with the stipend amount? 50L extra would be a nice start.

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I advise everyone to make 10 alts and fill their groups to maximum ^^

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Posted (edited)

Fyi, decreasing the number of groups not only harm creators but also harm clubs, DJs, roleplayers, and basically anyone cultivating the very communities that keep people in sl. With the number of social media platforms, chat programs that sl is competing with, that might not be a good idea? You might want to maybe consider getting rid of inactive accounts and groups. Or as others have mentioned create a variety of premium accounts that have specific perks that a landowner or creator or regular user would want. Maybe have people select from a dropdown menu to select options such as a monthly stipend or free number of uploads, free home, waive a certain amount of cashouts, premium sandbox, etc. Also, why not give a warning to everyone of the price increase for those not on premium now? The very basics you learn in marketing is offering a great deal that is time based lol. I bet you would have had a good amount of free users that would have bought into a premium account before the increase if you gave them the opportunity to do so. Like how you offered the ability to purchase grandfathered regions..

Also, it's appreciated that the price of land has gone down slightly. I think it's still way too high and hope you can find more ways to lower the operating costs and continue to pass the savings to consumers. 

 

Edited by Uneven
Minor grammar edits
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14 minutes ago, VanillaBaeSUPPORT said:

• Up to 50 groups (This helps everyone, creators and players alike. It helps build and strengthen our economy and provides more longevity for SL. If there is an issue with groups, look at JIRA and work on fixing those issues.). 

• New Group Limits must have 20 members or more - groups owned by Non-premium members must have at least 20 people in them to stay open or be charged a weekly fee (50-100L weekly).

This is a terrible idea. Groups would be fine staying at where they are or being decreased by 2 to be 40 max. Your group limits will kill role-playing communities, where police/fire/ems groups barely get above 10 on average.

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2 hours ago, Blueray Darkes said:

From what I know most people want Events to die out, they are not doing SL any good at all. In fact they are killing creativity and have over-saturated the market, less events would mean creators would be more likely to sell items.

We are working on the Events feature (https://events.secondlife.com/), not actually making changes to resident-run shopping or other events inworld :) - Although hopefully the improvements to the feature will improve the running and publicizing of said events. 

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13 hours ago, Grumpity Linden said:

We're open to suggestions, quite seriously.  One project currently in progress is an update to Events.  Hopefully by making events more useable, some of the group functionality can be absorbed there.  

Why not move out of California? Move to Texas, or Nevada. No state income tax there. How about off shoring some of your labor to India? Or how about Nigeria? You can employ 10 workers in one of those countries, for the price of one employee in California. This would be for support, and something like the G team.

I also think that everybody should boycott the market place, for 90, to 120 days. Buy nothing on the market place, and don't visit the market place web site.

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What will happen to the people who depend on groups to work?

I am Host and DJ and by club at least there are 2 groups that I have to have. +  group gift groups ... it was impossible to work with 42, I do not know what I will do with 35. I am part of Latin America, for us is difficult to buy lindens, and much more to become premium.

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Posted (edited)

@Grumpity Linden

When this was decided, was there any voice input from the community?  I understand that Linden Labs needs to make a profit in order to keep Second Life and any other projects running.

Edited by Coolnet Ordinary
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1 minute ago, Xiolin Furlough said:

This is a terrible idea. Groups would be fine staying at where they are or being decreased by 2 to be 40 max. Your group limits will kill role-playing communities, where police/fire/ems groups barely get above 10 on average.

This would only apply to basic members. Someone with a premium membership could start the group to get around that. I understand they run a business and have to do things to limit groups and add value to their premium membership while still being fair to the basic member community at large. That number was just a random one, they can choose the minimum to be 10 instead of 2 for example, but it adds value to premium memberships while not impacting the economy in a way that affects creators and everyone else alike. Limiting the actual groups that people paid for to join would have a bigger impact as people paid money to join a group that they can potentially lose out on. 

I understand people who RP want to have their groups as well and that is totally fair, and that is why premium members could start groups without the same limits applied. At the end of the day, we have to understand they are a business and some things will not be fair to every single community in SL. What we need to focus on is things that grow the economy, which is what keeps SL open and going - without a strong working economy, it would die out and they would not have a reason to keep the servers open anymore. That should be the ultimate goal - giving value to premium memberships while providing a good experience for basic members on a universal level. 

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23 minutes ago, VanillaBaeSUPPORT said:

New Group Limits must have 20 members or more - groups owned by Non-premium members must have at least 20 people in them to stay open or be charged a weekly fee (50-100L weekly). 

That won't work for those of us on fixed or limited incomes. You're also punishing basic accounts with this even if you don't mean to. That is what has people so upset. Please, don't add to it.

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13 hours ago, Grumpity Linden said:

Premium accounts have 3 weeks to pre-pay an additional cycle of premium at the old rates.  Best deal is, of course, prepaying for annual regardless of your current level.

This is pretty much coercion and unethical.

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15 minutes ago, Prisqua Newall said:

We have to pay an extra $27 to get just 10 more group slots but stipend remain the same. Not sure if there was ever a raise with the stipend amount? 50L extra would be a nice start.

Stipend has never been raised, only lowered. It's never been more than 500Ls per week either. I don't believe LL would ever agree to raising stipends. If they do, they would also need to raise stipends for basics and that they won't do because they seem to want us gone if we can't afford premium. :(

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Posted (edited)

Does anyone know why LL eliminated the quarterly membership tier for new members?? Ugh...soon they will also get rid of it for exhisting quarterlies

Edited by Therese Tammas
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6 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Stipend has never been raised, only lowered. It's never been more than 500Ls per week either. I don't believe LL would ever agree to raising stipends. If they do, they would also need to raise stipends for basics and that they won't do because they seem to want us gone if we can't afford premium. :(

i dont think basics have stipend tho, right ?

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Just now, DonnaCasta said:

i dont think basics have stipend tho, right ?

No basic account holders do not have a stipend. 

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