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Grumpity Linden

A brief note on pricing changes, which ran long.

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5 hours ago, Dove Darkfold said:

So... I'm not going to pretend to understand the entirety of the technical aspects of this decision. There are so many Basic accounts, the loss of group slots for Basic accounts far outweighs the amount that is being added to Premium accounts because there are so many more Basic subscribers than Premium. It makes sense if groups is such a heavy load to cut groups on Basic. However, it seems like a patch to fix what's really wrong - and that is that Linden coding, servers, and networking are outdated and need updating. They understand this is a problem - how do they fix it? With lots of money - and we're the ones who put the food on their tables at night with their families and fund Second Life's running. 

A lot of people who are angry about these increases also need to remember that LL is a business. The Lindens have families they need to feed. They need to upgrade their equipment to provide a better experience for residents. They need to give back something for the price increases, but it can't cut into the profits in the long run because that defeats the purpose of what they're trying to accomplish. Vitriol helps no one in the situation... LL knew that the community would blow up from this - and they were prepared for the backlash, which makes me sad because LL has taken care of us for a very long time. They do LOVE their SL community. We should love them in return for all they've accomplished and graciously allowed us to be a part of - free of charge.

As a creator, I will keep creating. I will adjust my prices accordingly with the percentage increase as any RL business does in the cases of inflation and natural progression of supply and demand. For a while, it will hurt, but like LL, I'm looking at the long term. People will get used to this, and they will come back. While it might be an unpopular opinion, I staunchly support Linden Labs in their endeavors to make Second Life a better experience for everyone and to stabilize our stagnant economy. Linden Labs has been impressive over my last 11 years with Second Life, and I'm looking forward to many more years. This move, on their part, assures they will continue to be here.

TLDR; Be kind, and don't be afraid to support the Lindens even if it's a little painful. In the end, it's all worth it. 

you're going to double your prices? is that what you mean? just curious. if we did that, our customers would be really upset and would lose most. many are on fixed incomes and sl is already for discretionary income. can you clarify? thanks! :)

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, CoffeeDujour said:

Still worth it for that alone.

Sure, if one lives for going to those Events. I certainly don't, but I merely speak for myself :) 

Edited by Asadora Summers

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4 minutes ago, Kadah Coba said:

How is that even possible? I thought region ownership also required premium.

Just for mainland I assume. 

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54 minutes ago, Grumpity Linden said:

There are many great and reasonable a la carte suggestions out here (and quite a few we considered internally).  The truth is, we would be neck deep in bugs for the next 5 years, and while we're still open to implementing _some small number_ of the premium features a la carte, we have to pass on the "build your own membership" as a full blown offering. 

It would be real nice to have a scaled-down premium membership just for a (new) Linden home. That was my favorite part of premium anyway.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Callie Cline said:

you're going to double your prices? is that what you mean? just curious. if we did that, our customers would be really upset and would lose most. many are on fixed incomes and sl is already for discretionary income. can you clarify? thanks! :)

@Callie Cline XD Um, no. Never. Although I run a business, I do have some integrity when it comes to the pocketbooks of my clientele. The extra that I'm paying is 2.5%. Anyone who doubles their prices doesn't understand math. 2.5% raise in product prices is more than reasonable. 

Edited by Dove Darkfold
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8 hours ago, sourapplepie said:

Increasing the process credit fee to 5% is a 100% increase from 2.5%, that I believe is completely unfair and targeting the main economic source for SecondLife. The majority of creators in SL make things for the soul purpose to make money from it - some people make for fun but most do not. Targeting the people who make clothes, bodies, accessories, buildings, etc... these people are the main back bone for SL and targeting them is wrong and will almost certinaly affect the economy if people are unable to keep their income.

One of my good friends is a creator and relies completely on their SL income to pay bills, rent, buy food, etc. As an example say they withdraw $1000 USD - at the moment their fee is around $25 USD, but this will increase to $50 USD each time they withdraw money. That is a food bill for a week just gone, never to be seen again, even though they will continue to earn the same amount of money in SL. Losing an extra $25 USD per month may not seem a huge amount but it very quickly adds up ($300 USD per year to be precise) and losing that amount of money is completely unfair.

The increase for Premium is fair in my opinion as prices have gone up in most aspects of the world and increasing Premium while giving people more features is a fair exchange. What is unfair is removing a huge number of groups from Basic members, especially since (from my experience) the majority of members have a Basic membership and removing so many groups from the majority of your shoppers and spenders is another unfair punishment.

I can not comment on the land aspect as I do not own land - I rent from a 3rd party - so I won't add my two cents here as I don't have any experience in that field.

TL;DR: A 100% incrase in process credit is unfair and targeting the wrong people and will almost certianly affect the SL economy if people are unable to make money from their SL stores anymore and are forced to find different sources of income.

 

it was just increased a year ago as well from 25 dollars (per 10k) to 250 dollars. over the years it went from 1 dollar max to now NO max, and 500. per 10k (the most you can cash out which they state when you cash out so going by their numbers)

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I do not see one reason to pay an increase for less benefits, especially when those benefits are not equal for all premium members.  I think the premium should be based on what we have access to, and if I do NOT have access to a house boat, as many premium members do not, why should I continue to pay even more??

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Posted (edited)

Have you considered the harmful consequences that reduced group limit from the vast majority of users will have on various small businesses and therefore lead to reduced linden purchases for those stores due to less of the "group effect" on purchasing being taken into account, as well as the likely increased group join pricing (to prevent people from leaving VIP style groups) causing less exploration as far as VIP groups (therefore the increase not translating into linden purchases) etc which will effectively hurt the economy and on a much larger scale than premium can help it, causing a ripple effect. Almost anything that leads to stagnation of an aspect of an economy is bad for that economy.

....Or.... people leave their social groups for those groups instead and end up in a situation where the social aspect takes a hit which would also have a ripple effect that would in turn also hurt the economy. Also that would hurt premium due to perceived  lower cost efficiency of the platform.

Yes, it is partially conjecture but I find it more of a realistic outcome when I think about it than premium purchasing going up enough that it would offset the potentially hazardous effects that I have detailed here merely on the surface of the change. Did linden purchasing go up after the previous increase in group slots per capita?.. and do you expect it won't go down by the same amount with this change? This would be very important to know because this kind of change is like changing the shower head - it might direct the water away from your target and cause it to miss, reduce water pressure, etc... there are many options that do not lead to the intended outcome.

What I am asking is do you have an economist on board that plays actively enough to predict this sort of thing and has taken it into account with proper math, facts and figures?

I am not that economist.. I merely suggested animesh, bake on mesh, etc years and years earlier and suggested bake on mesh as a way to maintain backwards compatibility when mesh was first announced. Those things are recently being added while I saw the need for them a long, long time ago. (which is fine of course.. development takes time, just demonstrating that I do think about the health of this platform in at least a somewhat realistic way sometimes.) I have been wrong before (everyone has) but I am getting band-aid solution vibes from all of these changes.

I am worried about a possible bottle-necking effect where the current beast has less breathing room for the economical or social aspects of its frame and ends up suffocating a little.

While I myself realize alternatives to groups exist, expecting the vast majority of users to be set up with Flickr groups, Subscribe-O.. etc is unrealistic because most casual users operate merely with what they have in front of them. If people are using the groups currently, it would stand to reason that there is a purpose for their current use of those groups in many cases. I am all for the stability of the grid and am not entirely opposed to making sacrifices occasionally.. but I don't see this as an effective decision from my perspective and have seen MMO try this sort of route and choke themselves out before. Some of those MMO are now gone. Linden Labs is still the most fair and transparent developer and has cultivated a large world with more freedom than any other platform... but I fear you might be treading a beaten path here.

Edited by Sahfur Silvera
bolded some text for tldr
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1 minute ago, Dove Darkfold said:

XD Um, no. The extra that I'm paying is 2.5%. Anyone who doubles their prices doesn't understand math. 2.5% raise in product prices is more than reasonable. 

i just meant, the increases started a few years ago going fomr $1. to $10. then from $10 to $25, then from $25 to $250, then from $250 to $500. 
are you saying you've increased your prices the entire time to reflect those changes? 

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49 minutes ago, Blueray Darkes said:

From what I know most people want Events to die out, they are not doing SL any good at all. In fact they are killing creativity and have over-saturated the market, less events would mean creators would be more likely to sell items.

I don't think that refers to shopping events. I think it refers to a change in the way events like live music are advertised. Maybe an update to the events calendar or something that will reduce reliance on groups to advertise them.

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10 minutes ago, Callie Cline said:

you're going to double your prices? is that what you mean? just curious. if we did that, our customers would be really upset and would lose most. many are on fixed incomes and sl is already for discretionary income. can you clarify? thanks! :)

If that is the case, you could be looking at $495 a month for a full region and $195 a month for a homestead and be wondering if it is still worth being on this grid or is it better to just leave and go somewhere else.

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17 minutes ago, Akane Nacht said:

It would be real nice to have a scaled-down premium membership just for a (new) Linden home. That was my favorite part of premium anyway.

Thank you. After some of the reactions I've gotten in the past 24 hours I was afraid to make that suggestion.

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48 minutes ago, Callie Cline said:

so, will you reconsider? 

My question exactly. Doubling the fee seems heavy handed and mildly disrespectful. So please?

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One thing I was curious, for those to take advantage to prepay for the additional year in June, will you still get dinged on your anniversary day. For example if I started premium in September, would customers still get hit with a renew automatically on that day or will some mechanism be in place to filter those accounts that pre-payed?

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Malin Sabra said:

Easy fix. Let basic members keep their 42 groups, but still lower their offline IMs.

Not really an ideal situation but it is one I could live with as I already make a point to remove any notices I've gotten while busy building that I don't need and keep only those I want to give some thought to. Yes, I know I could just go to the group window and locate them there but that's not always something I have time for. No, I don't use the email feature and no, I'm not going to add yet another email addy to the ones I already have and can barely manage. 

It seems to all boil down to one thing. Basic accounts are on the way out. We've (other half and I) have been waiting for that to happen for years now. Seems the other half has been right all this time and I just didn't want to believe it. If that is the case, then it will be the end of SL for both of us. No more building to my heart's content and keeping my mind active and sharp and no more classic rock DJing.

The really stupid thing? I've literally been in tears since the announcement came out. Angry and sad tears. 

Edited by Selene Gregoire
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1 hour ago, Evangeline Arcadia said:

Make that 10😀

Eleven

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While I understand giving Premium members 'more' because they are paying, but to take away from basic users is not right. After all, and I know this to be fact as I had a Premium account, twice in the eight years I have been in SL, but Premium member already get 'more' with the gifts, a Linden home, weekly stipend...and last I knew they get L's just for becoming a Premium member. A one time amount, plus the weekly stipend and more groups. Why, do they even need more? Why lower basic membership groups? Personally, I keep my groups at 20 or 22, but many of us work in SL as Dj's, Hosts, Dancers etc...The SL jobs alone take group slots. And if you happen to be a manager of said job, there is also another group separate from staff groups. Currently, I am in three different groups for one job. Many groups I would like to be in and stay in, I can't due to trying to keep my group limit low. Not to mention, if you are the creator of the group, and you decide to be rid of that group, you can't there is no delete button. Sure you can remove all members of that said group, but it still remains in your list. Many creators of the group also charge a ridiculous fee, just to join and group, which discourages many, therefore not many new members join. If groups are such a back strain, then some other solution needs to be found. Perhaps, I don't know, maybe somehow link it out of world, put the joined groups on our Dashboards. Allow us to do 'more'with our dashboard as well. Make them more like a profile. Maybe invent a way for SL users to 'earn' a small amount of L's just by doing daily actions/tasks with the Dashboard. Could call them Promo Lindens. A one time amount for 'sprucing' up your dashboard. Like creating or using a background. Adding small images to your background, that are transparent, like stickers. There are many ways that this can be done, and would encourage more users to join SL. At the thought of earning small amounts of L's many would join. As it stands right now...I don't see LL getting much in the ways of Premium membership out of their existing Basic members. 

There's a reason I gave up my Premium membership, as there is a reason for all who have gave it up. While the weekly stipend is nice, it doesn't even cover anything. Even on the MP, good quality stuff, would take all of that stipend...or the stipend isn't enough to buy the product. The LL Homes, are nothing really. The prims are much too low, and the space in the homes are much too small. The good thing about mesh being implemented, is that it cuts down on the prims being used...but...not always can you find what your seek. Most of us, well we like to get things to go with the theme of our home. So, take the Wizard's Retreat for example. (My first Linden Home). While the home itself, the design of it looked amazing, there is still not a significant amount of mesh items to fill the place at a low price, nor is there much space. The Tahoe home, (My second Linden Home) an A framed home...awesome, but the space inside was very small. In order to have a place to put livingroom furniture and bedroom furniture, I had to create a loft-like thing up in the top of the home. Then I needed a way to get up there. Therefore taking up more prims that could have been used to make this a nice little home. 

So, with all this, and then LL is going to change the cost of membership, as well as 'take away' from their basic users without finding another solution and a way around things...my opinion...it's wrong. Compared to when SL first started, the number of users had dwindled significantly. This new plan of LL's is just going to make it dwindle more. Why not come up with a plan to gain more users, not turn them away? Personally, if I (and I'm sure many others do this as well) wasn't a user of SL and went in search of a virtual world...me as a potential new user would see the costs, would see how the basic users get nothing really and only get things taken from them, well I would definitely NOT join then. I would find another, that looks out for their basic members as well as their paid members before joining one that only looks out for their paid members. There is also a lot of MMORPG's that I would join long before I'd come to SL. At least the MMORPG's look out for 'ALL' members alike.

I also can see, many SL users leaving SL for another due to these new plans. I'll be sticking around...for now. But, I will 'NOT' be putting money into LL's pockets through a membership. Also, the fees of 'buying' L's going up too? It's all ridiculous. We all use a credit/debit card in one form or another. Whether it is buying directly, or buying through Paypal etc...The costs are high already, we don't need it higher. Many users can't even 'buy' their own L's. They have to get an SL job to make a go of it. Which is fine, since I love my job, but many of us enjoy the exploring of other lands. Seeing the beauty of those said lands. So, they don't want to spend money for L's, and then in turn spend L's on anything. I believe LL needs to re-think their so called ideas and realize how many this hurts.

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You know if merchants are going to use groups for advertisement then perhaps creating a new premium account .. a merchant premium account where a maintenance fee for the group is charged on the size of group might be a way to go. That way the merchant is the one paying for the upkeep and residents aren't penalized because they don't have enough group slots.

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Question,,,,if you have already paid your quarterly payment  this past week  and now you do the pay for a year do you get a year and a quarter since you already paid the quarter then next year the yearly payment would not be June but a few months from June  or do they  discount the 99 dollars since you have already paid for the  quarter you have yet to use ,,,,,. still having hard time trying to figure this all out  but it looks like doing the  year thing in the long run would be less expensive ,,,,,  just wondering if after all the dust from this settles will they charge another increase like last year for lindens,,,, it seems  a bit off  that the encouragement to do the year thing when they are trying to make money s,,, if everyone  did the pay the full year ,,, they would lose money vs  keeping the ability to do quarterly  so the next way to off set would be to increase  once again what you pay to buy lindens and  if you have already paid  for the year and no refund if you want to go to basic ,,,,,,things a bit foggy ,,,,  so  if you pay monthly it more ,,, save money pay the year ,,, but if the increase to buy lindens ,,, hummmmmm,,,,,,,,,, so confused ,,,,,,, 

 

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1 minute ago, roseelvira said:

Question,,,,if you have already paid your quarterly payment  this past week  and now you do the pay for a year do you get a year and a quarter since you already paid the quarter then next year the yearly payment would not be June but a few months from June  or do they  discount the 99 dollars since you have already paid for the  quarter you have yet to use ,,,,,. still having hard time trying to figure this all out  but it looks like doing the  year thing in the long run would be less expensive ,,,,,  just wondering if after all the dust from this settles will they charge another increase like last year for lindens,,,, it seems  a bit off  that the encouragement to do the year thing when they are trying to make money s,,, if everyone  did the pay the full year ,,, they would lose money vs  keeping the ability to do quarterly  so the next way to off set would be to increase  once again what you pay to buy lindens and  if you have already paid  for the year and no refund if you want to go to basic ,,,,,,things a bit foggy ,,,,  so  if you pay monthly it more ,,, save money pay the year ,,, but if the increase to buy lindens ,,, hummmmmm,,,,,,,,,, so confused ,,,,,,, 

 

Look at your next bill date. Then add a year to that date and that's when you will pay again. The year gets added to what you currently have when you pay.

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As someone who has a premium membership, I don't see how changing the groups is a good thing for the non premium people. I don't use all of the groups that I have now, let alone adding ten more. I don't understand how taking away seven groups but adding ten to the premium people makes much sense. I understand the price increase for premium, it's not awesome, but fine. I can accept it. However, maybe instead of taking groups and adding groups (Since that seems to be a huge deal for both parties) Perhaps changing the linden allotment? Instead of having it be 300 a week, maybe make it 500 a week? Or 750? Or something similar so that the groups don't need to be affected. Because the way I'm seeing this anyone who isn't premium is getting shafted group wise. There has got to be something different that can be done so that no one feels like they are getting a raw deal. A linden increase might make more people tempted because they might see the linden increase and be able to justify going premium. But don't take away groups from people.

 

Also, some of us joined premium because we were told we were going to be getting an opportunity to change our last names. That was a year ago, is that something that is actually going to happen or no? I joined SL just shortly after you guys stopped doing last names. I think I missed it by months maybe. When I saw we would be able to change our names I was excited, I enjoy the "first" name I have, I just want a damn last name. 

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I already wrote this in one of the other threads, but I am upset enough to repost here : ). I am one of those basic accounts who are now forced to go premium. Which I wouldn't even mind so much if there was -any- benefit in it for me. I rent a homestead, I don't own and can't afford a sim. I don't need or want a Linden home or any gifts. I don't want mainland. I build on my homestead and don't need premium sandboxes. I don't care about the offline-IM problem because I tell people to send notecards instead. BUT - I need the group slots for my business. I don't need 70, I need round about 42 to be in all the event and land and business groups.

I have a store, I pay transaction- and marketplace fees and contribute to the economy. I will from now on have to pay the increased subscription fee, probably plus VAT, and double transaction fees for my cashouts. For no benefits at all, just to keep those 7 group slots I can't toss. At the same time, life for my second main will get harder - she is active in several roleplay communities and maxing out group slots for all those admin, mentor and land groups. I certainly will not pay for TWO premium accounts.

Sorry, you are hurting people who have contributed a -lot- to the economy and to the social life of SL over years.

Yes, you are forcing people like me to go premium now, and it is not a nice feeling to be punished and forced. But basic accounts who are -not- actively contributing (but nevertheless are welcome as customers and social contacts of course) - they probably will easily be able to toss a handful of groups and just stay basic accounts.

If you want more premium members, attract them with incentives, don't punish your loyal and active userbase, please. If you are able to hand out more groupslots to premiums, it should not be necessary to take them away from us.

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You should really add more to the premium membership before raising the prices. I barely use what you have to offer because its not needed. The only thing i use for premium is the stipend, increased group limit, priority access, and the offline notifications. Everything else is nothing to me. Instead of raising prices.... create an "a la carte" system where we pay for what we want? I... truly do not see how you are benefiting premium members and am thinking about leaving second life after this price increase. If you add more premium features that benefit me then I will consider staying but this is ridiculous :(

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I want to jump in and include my voice along with many other creators have voiced their concerns here, primarily with the group losses for basic memberships along with raising costs for premium accounts. This move will definitely impact not only basic users, but creators and business owners as well, which will greatly impact the overall SL economy. I'll gladly relinquish my group allotments as a premium member to keep the basic members groups intact. Groups are a HUGELY necessary marketing tool for businesses. My heart hurts for those with small businesses trying to reach out and secure group membership for their stores where people are always saying they need more groups and being forced to leave groups as it is. Decreasing that number is only going to make that worse. Smaller stores don't stand a chance. Secondly, many basic users can't afford the current premium prices, much less raising them without a middle level premium package they could have and afford. Not having this option is going to push them away. Less customers means that stores will have less sales. The economy is going to drop even further. With the new Linden homes and the more personal interaction with others and with Lindens things were changing. People were starting to communicate and interact more. Doing the new Linden homes was a brilliant move and I truly applaud you for that. But I'm afraid these new changes are going to hurt the good those did. People were talking about how things appeared to be changing with LL and that SL looked to be making a comeback. Now people are scared again and they don't feel like SL is stable by lowering groups instead of fixing them. When people are afraid they don't spend as much money. This is detrimental to the whole economy in SL.

Please please reconsider the lowering of groups for basic and adding a middle premium level for those who can't afford the full premium level. Please let's at least talk it over. This move was too much. There has to be a middle ground. I know myself and many other creators would gladly do what we need to do to instill confidence and quality in Second Life. I for one don't take the opportunities SL has given me and so many others for granted. I want to make sure those opportunities continue for others. 

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