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Cashout Fees To Rise to 5%

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I was on board when they removed the max fee. $25 was stupidly cheep if you know how to hold onto your credit till you hit you max cashout.   

I was even on board with their initiative to get teir cheaper by shifting costs to other fees. It makes sense. Cheap land = More activity = More Sales for everyone.  But they are doubling the cashout fees to knock 10% off the teir costs. There is some lopsided nonsense going on here.   

But I'm still of the opinion they should just bump it to 10% and have it be a credit useable toward land use, MP fees, premium and other fees (like region name changes and such).  It'd still be well below the industry standard of 15-30%, encourage more land use and make us feel like we're getting something for our fees.  Because right now, it just feels like we're being nickle and dimed from every direction.

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1 hour ago, Beth Macbain said:

Isn't that the risk every small business owner faces, though? 

You could never convince a bank to finance a business that works like a SL creators.

Quote

If an item doesn't sell, that sucks for the creator. If an item sells, but they're selling it below whatever their cost is to make it, that also sucks. 

If an item doesn't sell, then that creator went to work for a week and didn't get paid. That doesn't just suck.

It sucks that if all went well, and they will get paid for that week eventually in drips and drabs.

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If a creator raises their prices and things don't sell, they always have the option of marking them back down.

No they don't as products have a shelf life, newer stuff sells way more than old stuff. If you don't get that initial burst of sales, you aren't ever going to get it and you wasted your time.

Your time is directly connected to your ability to live IRL.

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If a creator keeps prices the same as their costs rise, they're just screwed because they aren't even testing the waters to see what the market will bear. 

There will always be someone willing to make the same thing and give it away.

Edited by CoffeeDujour
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I'm not really a crunchy granola, kubaya kind of person, but wow, the negativity just flows through some of you. There are no solutions, there is nothing that can be done, everything sucks, the sky is falling, and we're all going to die.

Er... good luck with that. 

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Well one could always just leave on their tilia what LL takes out for land and account fees and take out the rest for whatever you may need it for irl. That's what I do but I also work as well irl so I don't depend on what I make from sales on here.

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14 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

I'm not really a crunchy granola, kubaya kind of person, but wow, the negativity just flows through some of you. There are no solutions, there is nothing that can be done, everything sucks, the sky is falling, and we're all going to die.

Er... good luck with that. 

It's not negative to know the solutions you have presented won't work (raise prices). I know that because I've experienced it as a merchant, as have many other merchants.

Please be sensitive...those who can't be merchants here anymore are having to give up their dreams...sometimes dreams years in the making...and dreams they thought would continue. For me it has been an experience of much depth and meaning, you could say 'spiritual'. Developing artistically, increasing 'the flow' in creating that translates to RL, learning to know and appreciate nature more.

Imagine doing that for a living, along with the very, very hard work creating anything entails, and having to leave it to go flip burgers or something, having no energy left at the end of the day to create.    Have some sympathy.

Edited by Luna Bliss
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1 hour ago, Chellynne Bailey said:

It'd still be well below the industry standard of 15-30%

Unfortunately it is approaching your bottom number  :(

With the current changes it  is 13 1/2 %  (5% Marketplace fee, 5% cashout fee, 3 1/2 % conversion fee from $L to $). Probably there's some other fee I've forgotten.
Upload charges for every mesh and texture, & sometimes land is needed depending on what one sells.

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13 hours ago, Beth Macbain said:

If a creator that I love refuses to raise their prices in order to counter increases in fees, etc., and ultimately goes out of business due to that stubbornness, yes, it displeases me that they wouldn't trust enough in me as a customer (or, perhaps, in the quality of their work) to think they could survive a small price increase.

As a matter of fact, Linden Lab creates a product that I adore, and I'm perfectly willing to pay this increased premium price in order to keep them in business so I can keep getting this product I love.

One thing that strikes me about this is the emphasis on the I. Would you consider seeing it from another point of view?

When creators are wary of raising prices, it's generally based on years of accumulated data on what sells best and how pricing affects this. I daresay most of us have experimented with nudging prices from time to time and sometimes we're able to make it work. For myself, I know that something nicer priced at L$100 will sell less than one priced at L$90 and the L$70s will sell even more. It's not about insufficient trust in you or in the quality of our work. If only that were sufficient.

Casting aspersions on creators in the forum isn't going to help at all. What would help far more is if you could create a culture whereby customers who are happy to spend more make a habit of paying extra when they buy something. If you're genuinely happy to pay a bit more, there's already a mechanism in place to do so.

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5 minutes ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

Casting aspersions on creators in the forum isn't going to help at all.

completely true, bút ... those creators should stop blaming LL for businessplans that turn out less good, LL didn't make those.....
This isn't a "told you so" post, but putting all your bets on a computer platform should at least raise some flags, there are no virtual things that survived as long as SL does.. logically thinking should warn you for that. Also old creators have seen many come, and many go, also famous brands longer here than themself, for various reasons the leave, 99% chance the current ones also will get those issues as the poofed ones, some will fall, others go on, regrab their things, reorganise and move on.

Yes, it's not fun to pay more, but i'm seriously convinced this 2.5 % isn't the killer.
Yes, it will lower the proces credit results ( but also taxable income, so it's not all loss)
 

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the way this conversation has turned is silly

a: hi, i am A customer who is ok with you B shopkeeper putting your prices up a little bit, because I realise that your overheads have increased
b: my long experience of customers is that this is not true
a: thats not fair, I kinda resent you saying this
b: oh! well. Please to have some sympathy for our plight
: dear A, if you truly feel this way then please to give B shopkeeper a donation on top of paying the asked sale price


its like we now in playschool

Edited by Mollymews
c :

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2 minutes ago, Fox Wijaya said:

completely true, bút ... those creators should stop blaming LL for businessplans that turn out less good, LL didn't make those.....
This isn't a "told you so" post, but putting all your bets on a computer platform should at least raise some flags, there are no virtual things that survived as long as SL does.. logically thinking should warn you for that. Also old creators have seen many come, and many go, also famous brands longer here than themself, for various reasons the leave, 99% chance the current ones also will get those issues as the poofed ones, some will fall, others go on, regrab their things, reorganise and move on.

Yes, it's not fun to pay more, but i'm seriously convinced this 2.5 % isn't the killer.
Yes, it will lower the proces credit results ( but also taxable income, so it's not all loss)

Since we're playing buts, here.... But I haven't done any of that though, have I? Please show me where if you think differently. I was pretty certain all of my bets were somewhere else :)

To whatever extent what you've written is true, it doesn't change things for the way the market works. What I've seen over the last decade is a general decline in prices, with newer creators tending to undersell older ones in order to establish themselves and prices across the board being driven down.

And every time a creator has to leave because the costs and difficulties outweight the benefits, it's a loss to that individual on a personal level. It might be for the best, but it's still a loss. And some do work that's so unique no one will ever replace them.

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I wonder if the greater picture here is lost. In simplest terms, Second Life is the only, that I know of, an entertainment platform that other people are willing to pay RL money to convert into digital tokens (L$ legally defined as this) to buy your pretty pixels with and also allows you to convert those valueless tokens into a *credit* that you can reinvest into your spending into that platform (the way most others do it) *and* also allows you to take a "refund" of that credit in real life legal tender.

That is all this is. So the company that gives you a refund on RL legal tender, that doesn't have to do this whatsoever (as most, if not all other entertainment platforms do not) and they decide to keep 10% of that as a surcharge (to also cover the RL charges their bank and government regulators demand) and you get the rest, essentially for free (as all your work creating pixel art is voluntary and discretionary,) that you actually complain about that?

Okay, go ahead and complain about it. Nothing wrong with that. Just realize that most realists will shake their heads with a hearty chuckle.

As for the argument that there are people whose real lives depend on their "revenues" coming out of Second Life: I'm sure there may be some. But what they rely on surely is only supplemental to whatever they are getting from any pension or State welfare. Surely the wiser among them have alternate means to supplant the loss of anything coming out f SL. And in my mind, if a creator is successful enough to be able to "rely" on the revenue generated through Second Life, then that creator must be pretty darned talented to make enough sales to generate that amount, to which I say there are many real-life opportunities where that talent can be turned into considerably higher levels of income than what is generated in SL.

All of that to say this: even if Linden Lab takes 80% commission, you're still getting free money you can't get from any other pretend playground. One shouldn't look a gift-horse in the mouth.

Edited by Alyona Su
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On 6/4/2019 at 4:13 PM, Alyona Su said:

..even if Linden Lab takes 80% commission, you're still getting free money you can't get from any other pretend playground...

I am booked to play a RL gig. I assemble a set list, spend two or three hours rehearsing it and tweaking it to fit my time slot to within a couple of minutes. Then, at the agrred time and place, I perform it live.

I am booked to play a SL gig. I assemble a set list, spend two or three hours rehearsing it and tweaking it to fit my time slot to within a couple of minutes. Then, at the agreed time and place, I perform it live.

"pretend", "free"... Yeah, right. The only "pretend" thing about it is how I look to others when doing it, like a stage costume in RL.

The stipend is free money, if you happen to be premium. No other SL income is. I work for it, no less than if I were performing in RL.

For me this is LL saying "we're taking more of the door price and giving you less" - which is fair enough, they are running a business. They have to make these decisions. So do I. If it stops being worth my while to perform at their venue, on their platform why would I continue doing it?

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8 minutes ago, Da5id Weatherwax said:

So do I. If it stops being worth my while to perform at their venue, on their platform why would I continue doing it?

*PRECISELY*

So, is a 10% take not worth your time and effort? I'm willing to bet the house take is a lot more than that in your RL performances. Everyone has that threshold. I doubt very many have one as low as 10, even 15%. Most will tolerate even 20% or more before they throw in the towel. Each must decide for themselves. No need to shout shrill about it, just move on. (Generally speaking, not directed at quoted)

Edited by Alyona Su

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@Alyona Su, you say "precisely" but maybe you're missing the point.

Nobody is saying LL owes them a living. They are saying "I am an example of this category of contributors who have a role in making SL the kind of environment it is. This can make me stop doing that." and questioning whether this is really a desirable consequence for SL or for LL. From anyone in that position who cares about being part of this community, that is a valid concern to raise.

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47 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

No need to shout shrill about it, just move on.

and why not? because you are annoyed by it? Then don't participate in these threads, i am sure you can waste your valuable time doing much more exciting things than listening to the whinings of upset creators/artists.

If enough of us shout shrill enough about it, maybe - just maybe! - somebody at LL will wake up and listen and do something about it. You just wintessed yourself that it worked for the groups!! Why are you still trying to shut us up?

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On ‎6‎/‎4‎/‎2019 at 10:13 AM, Alyona Su said:

 your pretty pixels

creating pixel art is voluntary and discretionary

Okay, go ahead and complain about it.  you're still getting free money you can't get from any other pretend playground. One shouldn't look a gift-horse in the mouth.

You got some kinda pixel problems gurl      hehe

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41 minutes ago, Elvina Ewing said:

why not? because you are annoyed by it?

In truth? I am generally entertained and I am not being sarcastic or any of that, it is the truth. I am a believer that life is generally a lot more stress-free if you laugh at everything, including and especially yourself. :)

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Just now, Kiera Clutterbuck said:

You got some kinda pixel problems gurl      hehe

Hahaha, I do! Wait, no, Ima sexay set of pixels in-world.

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1 hour ago, Alyona Su said:

So, is a 10% take not worth your time and effort? I'm willing to bet the house take is a lot more than that in your RL performances.

If performing at their venue paid the same as performing at an RL venue, considering my time and costs are identical for both, they could take the same cut as the RL venue does and I'd be happy.

It doesn't even come close enough to compare. If you want entertainers in your venue their margins have to be positive. That means the house percentage has to reflect the lower margins the talent is accepting,  or you won't HAVE any performers.

In this, albeit indirectly via other residents, LL are my customer, not the other way around.

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On 5/31/2019 at 4:31 PM, drusilladarkwillow said:

second life should never be anyone's main source of income as it's not always grantee that it will be around in another 5 or so years.

Absurd. No businesses have guarantees. Look at how many solid money makers are now kaput. 

I was a teacher, quit to run my business in SL full time ten years ago, and during all that time have made far more than I did teaching. 

 

SL is like any job. When LL does things that are going to injure our income, and not always just by a few percent, we object. 

Edited by Pamela Galli
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5 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

I am a believer that life is generally a lot more stress-free if you laugh at everything, including and especially yourself. :)

You maybe don't know it but you should be laughing a whole lot more.

Edited by Kiera Clutterbuck

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1 hour ago, Kiera Clutterbuck said:

but if too many leave it could be bad for Second Life!

Yes, exactly. And how many is too many?

Personally, I genuinely don't think this change will create as many emigrants as you presume, and hardly enough to make a scratch in SL that it would feel anything whatsoever.

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2 hours ago, Pamela Galli said:

Absurd. No businesses have guarantees. Look at how many solid money makers are now kaput. 

I was a teacher, quit to run my business in SL full time ten years ago, and during all that time have made far more than I did teaching. 

 

SL is like any job. When LL does things that are going to injure our income, and not always just by a few percent, we object. 

That's good for you and I'm glad that it makes you happy. But in my personal opinion no one should depend on sl as it can be shut down or they can shut down at any given point and what would you do then? You can't really use them as a job reference. You'll have more skills, yes but no reference. It's just my personal opinion, don't take it so personally.

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16 minutes ago, drusilladarkwillow said:

That's good for you and I'm glad that it makes you happy. But in my personal opinion no one should depend on sl as it can be shut down or they can shut down at any given point and what would you do then? You can't really use them as a job reference. You'll have more skills, yes but no reference. It's just my personal opinion, don't take it so personally.

If SL shuts down, and it shows zero signs of doing so anytime soon, I will continue to be self employed using the skills I have developed. There are many other ways to do that.

SL is not some special risky job that only lunatics would make a career of, even if you can’t imagine doing so. 

Edited by Pamela Galli
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