Cashout Fees To Rise to 5%

[Luna Bliss]

On 6/9/2019 at 3:42 AM, Da5id Weatherwax said:

@Luna Bliss It's ok, don't worry about it. You get these guys. Back in the days before "the internet" became synonymous with "the web" (heck there wasn't even AN "internet", there were several "internetwork arrangements" and they only sometimes overlapped) and before the word "troll" entered regular usage we called them "knockers" - they'll knock any idea any position, often twisting themselves into pretzels to somehow manage to take a contrarian position to both sides of a well-defined discussion. They are actually useful at the start of a discussion, acting as the voice of pessimism and cynicism, but once the pretzeling starts you tune them out. Or, when they go off the rails, plonk 'em.

I used to be an active seller of "virtual things" - on the old forums, if you remember, you couldn't even see this board unless you were - but after I switched to being pretty much exclusively a performer I still didn't meet a single serious SL merchant who didn't regard me as being as much a "supplier" within the SL economy as they were and thus a part of their community. When you come down to it we're ALL artists of one type or another trying to make our art pay so that we can do more of it, right?

And "art as a business model" only gets to NOT be "on the edge of failing" for a tiny few, whatever the platform or venue. Virtual or physical, that's just the way it is, but we keep on making it and accept that risk because we love what we do. "Business" comes into it when you have to say "I can't afford to do this here no more" before you spend too much time, cost and effort trying to turn it around when it won't. And, let's face it, that's the concern some of us are raising here.  If LL believe our concerns are baseless or they believe that there's enough of us with larger margins to weather the changes and not detract from SL as a whole or that there are enough "budding talents" waiting to replace us that it won't matter, then they will not see our concerns as anything to stand in the way of the changes. They may even recognize our concerns and share them but the calculations of their own business model leave them no choice. Nonetheless we owe it to our colleagues in the creative community and to LL who are running the platform on which we want to continue expressing that creativity to raise those concerns, to make them part of the discussion. And in doing so, we can still tune out the "knockers".

I'm glad you explained your position in greater detail -- living on the edge as an artist. I feel the lack of awareness of how creative freelancers must live in this society is the source of so much of the criticism levied against us here. Like you said, we must live on the edge if we want to continue to do what we love -- for most there is no secure financial plan as is with many other types of businesses, as very few are able to actually make a good living.
And as you know, many people in society believe creatives should give to society for free -- as if we can live on air.

Anyway, as you could tell, I was very upset that someone was arrogantly insisting that your business was already failing if you couldn't absorb the most recent 2.5% cashout fee increase. Likewise, people have applied RL business circumstances to the very different financial realities of a SL business in an attempt to tell them they were doing something wrong or should not be feeling upset about the cashout fee increase.
It's just bizarre to me that all these people think they know everything about our circumstances. I mean even though I'm deeply involved here with a business as a content creator I wouldn't presume to know the details of how a musician funds their work here, or even another content creator really. Each business is unique, in both how they fund their enterprise in SL and their circumstances in RL.

Regarding whether this was trollish behavior on the part of the person who was butting into your space by accusing you of having a failed business, I'm not so sure being a "knocker" was the issue. I think he's jealous of creatives and wants to tear them down, but then maybe that is always a primary issue with all trollish behaviour where people delight in tearing down others via taking up contrary positions -- they've failed in their own endeavors and so enjoy trying to make others feel they have also failed?
Perhaps a factor is how he's been treated by other creators, in the way that you were treated as somehow 'less than' or not part of the group anymore when you stopped creating content and began contributing as a musician instead. I've certainly met my share of snobby creators. The tribalism of humankind can be annoying, the way there is such a penchant for making unnecessary divisions in the attempt to win and feel better than someone else.

Anyway, this thread should be a space for all businesses to express how the fee increases will affect them. It should not be about demonizing one side or the other. The reality is that even SL does not know if the increase will be a good change for SL overall. And even if it does end up being a positive change for SL overall this does not negate the fact that for some individual people it will be a disaster that causes them to give up on a dream.

Edited June 10, 2019 by Luna Bliss

[ChinRey]

On 6/8/2019 at 3:25 PM, Alyona Su said:

99% of all merchants are CREATORS

I thinkt here's a decimal point missing there. You did mean 9.9% , right?

[Luna Bliss]

7 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

On 6/8/2019 at 8:25 AM, Alyona Su said:

99% of all merchants are CREATORS

I thinkt here's a decimal point missing there. You did mean 9.9% , right?

I've often wondered just how many residents of SL are creators now....this is so important to the discussion.

What's your guesstimate?

[ChinRey]

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

I've often wondered just how many residents of SL are creators now....this is so important to the discussion.

What's your guesstimate?

It depends on how you define creator of course. You can argue that somebody who put together their own outfit for their mesh avatar is a creator.

But if you ask how many of the merchants selling mesh items on MP actually make mesh themselves, I think 10% actually is a fairly good estimate although it may be lower.

[Rya Nitely]

so anyone who wants to cash out before the increase be aware there will be a bit of a rush. It already takes days to sell at 251, not sure how long because I had to go 252.

[Marina Ramer]

On 5/29/2019 at 11:09 PM, Alexxis DeCuir said:

Cashout fees to transfer cash to paypal are rising to 5%. Thoughts?

Sl is slowly dying against cell games, loosing players more and more, and their genious idea, to gain more players, is to increase all fees 100% and even more, I can sadly see that itsjust a matter of time, till they will eventually die and to cease to exist as they are putting even more stones on the path for people who is fighting for this old and obsolet game to continue existing,  specially merchants and content creators. On my own case I am expanding to sell in other platforms because of previously said, and will also stop paying my premium accounts in order to try to minimize looses after this dumb desition.

[Marina Ramer]

On 6/8/2019 at 5:19 AM, Naiman Broome said:

I do not understand why LL is so focused in Killing SL by attacking the ones that create content ingame!

Without Merchants what would be SL?

Without Creators what would be SL?

Increasing 5% to a no limit feee , it passed from 1,5 to 5% in a two years!!!

I mean then you have to account that even paypal cuts another 3,5% on conversion fees.

Then there are VAT , that in my country at least takes another 25% !

So whats resulting in the end ?

I am really pissed to this habit of milking the cows instead of improving popularity and quality of the platform they point to milk the content creators that are keeping the platform on!

And what's worst you have no way to communicate your disappointment to LL as they just blindly take their decisions without care of inquire on the Merchants!

 

Totally agree with you here, the made a terrible attemp which drastically failed with Sansar, and instead of trying to do anything better, they just keep milking the cow till nothing is left anymore, on a too obsolete games which has barely a new player. So sad...

[Dakota Linden]

Greetings all!

We understand that discussing the announced changes can get heated, please just remember that negative comments directed at, or about, others is not appropriate. 

We have removed a few posts in this thread and would ask that everyone try to remain civil. 

Thank you!

[Mollymews]

5 hours ago, ChinRey said:

It depends on how you define creator of course. You can argue that somebody who put together their own outfit for their mesh avatar is a creator.

i would argue that

as I would argue the same for people who rez and mount stuff on their parcels to create a whole and tell a story in doing so. Same for musicians, storytellers, photographers, film makers, performers and curators who don't create stuff stuff. Yet their creations are at least as important, sometimes even more so than stuff stuff, which without a story is just stuff. For sure stuff can be important as props to a story.Yet without any stuff, stories can still be told

[roseelvira]

I think it  would do us all good to read this  from another thread ,,,,,, AFTER READING THIS IT ALL MAKES SICKINGING SENSE ,, THE THREAD  IS AS FOLLOWS AND PAGE 17 THE POST BY ANN AND THE ADAPTION AND LINDEN LABS    WE ARE BEING STUDIED /   OUR BEHAVIOR/ OUR BUYING HABITS / EVERYTHING..... ETC AND PAYING MONEY TO AB  BE THE LAB RATS  ,,,,,,, they want us to fight and bicker among ourselves ,,,,,,,, i am so heartsick 

What are your opinions on the new "Land Price Reductions, News, and Pricing Changes "? 

 

Edited June 11, 2019 by roseelvira

[Adumelial Rothstein]

On 5/29/2019 at 9:09 PM, Alexxis DeCuir said:

Cashout fees to transfer cash to paypal are rising to 5%. Thoughts?

This is an effort by LL to weed the serious SL merchants from the wannabe. It could be their greed OR it could also be an effect of what is going on in the RL world economically - especially in California. OR it could be LL greed?

[Mollymews]

18 minutes ago, Adumelial Rothstein said:

OR it could also be an effect of what is going on in the RL world economically

i go with this or

[Elvina Ewing]

11 hours ago, Rya Nitely said:

so anyone who wants to cash out before the increase be aware there will be a bit of a rush. It already takes days to sell at 251, not sure how long because I had to go 252.

the rush has started soon after they announced these news. I've been selling at 250L for many months, my last filled order was at 250L on May 23, i had to cancel my other orders and move them to 251L 2 days ago. I see now that they will probably not clear in time before the doomsday so i will have to move them to 252, too. I suspect it will get even worse. Now on top of the fee increase we will also get the exchange rate increase. Thanks

[Alyona Su]

21 hours ago, ChinRey said:

I thinkt here's a decimal point missing there. You did mean 9.9% , right?

Nope - full 99% (because of gacha resellers and scofflaws/thieves)

20 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

I've often wondered just how many residents of SL are creators now....this is so important to the discussion.

What's your guesstimate?

We all can split hairs on the definition of Second Life "Creator" - so I should clarify my definition, which is: anything built in-world with prims, full-perms items, or uploaded into SL (including after-market template mesh) - specifically: if it shows their name in the "Creator" box in properties, they are a "creator."

This is where my 99% of SL merchants are creators is based. I'm also not saying my way is the only right way of calculating or looking at it. It's simply one of those "foggy" type definitions.

[Mollymews]

4 hours ago, Elvina Ewing said:

the rush has started soon after they announced these news. I've been selling at 250L for many months, my last filled order was at 250L on May 23, i had to cancel my other orders and move them to 251L 2 days ago. I see now that they will probably not clear in time before the doomsday so i will have to move them to 252, too. I suspect it will get even worse. Now on top of the fee increase we will also get the exchange rate increase. Thanks

there is always volatility on the LindeX when LL makes substantial changes. The last reduction in tiers sent the LindeX to 260 plus for some months. When XStreet was merged with MP then it went to about 270. Back about 2007 when LL started printing estate regions in bulk it went to 300. The beneficiaries of this were people/customers who bought L$ and used the extra to buy more stuff and rent parcels

am not sure how far the L$ will go this time but I think it could go to 255-260 about, if the past is any reliable guide. Or not, depending on what Supply Linden does

[ChinRey]

1 hour ago, Alyona Su said:

We all can split hairs on the definition of Second Life "Creator" - so I should clarify my definition, which is: anything built in-world with prims, full-perms items, or uploaded into SL (including after-market template mesh) - specifically: if it shows their name in the "Creator" box in properties, they are a "creator."

I can agree to that. Any number can make sense, it all all depends on how we define "creator".

When it comes to prims, it's simple enough: you rezzed it, it's your creation.

It's a bit more complicated when it comes to mesh. If you check the parts of a linset, not jsut the root, you'll find that most mesh merchants don't make or upload meshes themselves, they rely on full perm stuff from other creators. Don't misunderstand me, I have nothing against this. I sell full perm meshes and textures myself and the only time I have problems with it is when they forget that root prim so I show up as the creator and has to do customer support. I don't buy the "genuinely original work" myth anyway. Everybody are standing on somebody else's shoulders. But it means there is a greyzone. Some do little more than add a root prim with their name to a build that already is complete, other assemble elaborate builds from parts from different sources. Most are somewhere in between. If it's clothing, they probably add their own textures, if it's funriture they add animations from a different creator etc.

How much does it take before something is a new creation? Everybody have to make up their own mind and there's no "correct" answer.

 

[Luna Bliss]

On 6/10/2019 at 12:40 PM, ChinRey said:

It depends on how you define creator of course.

Well sorry ChinRey, I was kind of on my way to an all-encompassing theory and barely beginning....lol

What I'm trying to understand is....how many residents are creators (in all the varied ways, from mesh creators to those who create plays and perform music and everything in between.... AND cash out from these endeavors) vs those who come to SL just to play and relax? I'm wondering what the % is of these 2 groups.

Lately, I've run into a couple people who didn't know what a prim was, yet had been in SL for some time.

[Luna Bliss]

20 hours ago, Mollymews said:

as I would argue the same for people who rez and mount stuff on their parcels to create a whole and tell a story in doing so. Same for musicians, storytellers, photographers, film makers, performers and curators who don't create stuff stuff. Yet their creations are at least as important, sometimes even more so than stuff stuff, which without a story is just stuff. For sure stuff can be important as props to a story.Yet without any stuff, stories can still be told

Why do you feel a need to place one above or below the other?

[ChinRey]

2 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

What I'm trying to understand is....how many residents are creators (in all the varied ways, from mesh creators to those who create plays and perform music and everything in between.... AND cash out from these endeavors) vs those who come to SL just to play and relax? I'm wondering what the % is of these 2 groups.

That's very hard to say. The best estimates I've seen indicate that there are between 70,000 and 120,000 Real Life people who log on to SL regularly (that is at least once a month over a prolonged length of time). Those estimates are a bit old and there may actually be a little bit more now but certanly less than 200,000.

There are almost 220,000 stores on MP and then there are of course land owners, a few people who still only sell in-world, DJs, estate agents, pole dancers, escorts... you name it. But of course, not nearly all the MP stores are active, some people have multiple stores and many of the stores are run by people who only have them for fun and have no ambition of making any kind of money from them.

I have no idea really.

 

2 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Lately, I've run into a couple people who didn't know what a prim was, yet had been in SL for some time.

Oh yes, that's quite common today.

[Mollymews]

3 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Why do you feel a need to place one above or below the other?

another good question

when it comes to material things we all have our own set of relative values. How important each piece is relative to each other, the importance a piece may have in enhancing our present experience, and/or a place it may have in our memories of a previous experience or person. So it can get quite deep and varied on a piece by piece basis. No two experience values necessarily being the same, or even comparative to those of another person

in my own case, when a material thing has no place in my memories and no longer enhances my present experience then I either give it away or delete it when I can't give it to someone else. I am quite ruthless when it comes to stuff in both my RL and SL. Clothes, furniture, etc. There some things like memento I will keep, but everything else is gone and replaced by other newer stuff. Spring, summer, autumn, winter closets cleaned out. RL stuff like coats and boots might survive a few seasons, most other stuff no. RL and SL paint and paper a room then new color tones new style new stuff

i try to give what RL stuff I can to the Sallies. When they can't take it then when clothes its into the charity recycle bins. When furniture, kitchen stuff, etc, then put on the road outside my house with a sign Free. Somebody always takes it, no matter what it is

in SL when stuff is transfer then give it away to whoever wants it. Some things which are transfer can have some larger monetary value to other people, like I have this adult dog I got off a gacha when all I wanted was a puppy which I did get as well. A dog I don't have any feelings for, so I will hold on to it until there is a charity yard sale inworld and any money the dog may be worth can go to the charity

anything else goes in the bin

so that's how I relate with stuff

now onto the next level of the question: What about the creativity of the person who made the piece, how does that factor in ?.  For myself, I can admire a piece of work for the crafting skills that went into it, and for how the crafted piece shows/reflects the values of the crafter. However, despite my admiration I am not going to buy it if I don't like it. Or even if do like it I still won't buy it when it has no place in my current experience, house, home, garden. Maybe next season

[Theresa Tennyson]

On 6/10/2019 at 11:50 AM, Luna Bliss said:

Likewise, people have applied RL business circumstances to the very different financial realities of a SL business in an attempt to tell them they were doing something wrong or should not be feeling upset about the cashout fee increase.
 

IF a Second Life business is the primary source of the owner's real-life income

THEN it is a real-life business.

 

[Alyona Su]

3 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

IF a Second Life business is the primary source of the owner's real-life income

THEN it is a real-life business.

 

Actually, no.

People earning intangible trading tokens (the legal definition of L$) for cash-out into legal tender have no control whatsoever of what or how or when Linden Lab does things. Therefore, at best, these people are in a subcontractor agreement (though there is no contract.) As the author of that agreement, Linden Lab can change the terms of that agreement, which they have done and can do because it is not a contract. And even that doesn't apply because even though we call it a "cash-out", that is not what it is. Rather it is officially a refund of credit on your account. You can call it a business if you like, but it's hardly "real life business".

Edited June 12, 2019 by Alyona Su

[Theresa Tennyson]

13 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

Actually, no.

People earning intangible trading tokens (the legal definition of L$) for cash-out into legal tender have no control whatsoever of what or how or when Linden Lab does things. Therefore, at best, these people are in a subcontractor agreement (though there is no contract.) As the author of that agreement, Linden Lab can change the terms of that agreement, which they have done and can do because it is not a contract. And even that doesn't apply because even though we call it a "cash-out", that is not what it is. Rather it is officially a refund of credit on your account. You can call it a business if you like, but it's hardly "real life business".

I'm referring to how the merchant should think of it, as opposed to Bliss's statement that it's a "very different financial reality." You are right that they have no control over what Linden Lab does, any more than any other businessperson would have control over what their customers and suppliers do outside of actual contracts.

[Mollymews]

13 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

 intangible trading tokens (the legal definition of L$)

 L$ are classified as Convertible Virtual Currency by the US Treasury

the US Internal Revenue Service determines that a person earning real money making and selling stuff, or providing a service, as self-employed when that person is trading on their own account, and as such that person is eligible to claim business expenses

it is the IRS that decides who/what is business, not LL, not Apple, not Amazon, not Youtube, nor any other online platform

[Theresa Tennyson]

18 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

What I'm trying to understand is....how many residents are creators (in all the varied ways, from mesh creators to those who create plays and perform music and everything in between.... AND cash out from these endeavors) vs those who come to SL just to play and relax? I'm wondering what the % is of these 2 groups.

Those statistics haven't been public for a long time, but apparently in 2007 3000 people were cashing out over $100 a month and 800 were making over $1000 a month.

https://www.hypergridbusiness.com/2011/05/no-happy-endings-for-virtual-investors/