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2 minutes ago, Desudesudesuka said:

What I have to say on the changes to group membership for free players, but framed as a creator:

This is not just bad for everyone not paying for premium, this is bad for everyone and will have a chilling effect on SL. This affects merchants in quite a major way, because we use groups for our stores.  Store groups are needed to supply updates, promotions, support, and even more through services like Caspervend. Up and coming merchants are going to be hit the hardest by this, given their groups may not offer as much benefit users may opt not to bother joining, or they may even be left. This affects sim owners, because they use groups for land management. This affects everyone not paying for premium, because they need to enter groups for rez permissions (like us for renting store locations) and to get benefits from merchants.

Exactly. There are so many indirect ways this is harmful to commerce -  and not just current commerce but future and potential commerce through new creators. People will still probably join the huge creators' groups but will be discouraged from joining those of smaller creators who have the potential to become huge creators. Discouraging commerce also impacts the quality of life for all residents, premium and otherwise. It puts a bad taste in users' mouths and such things have a cumulative effect over time. Your business is your reputation - and we want LL to do well because when LL does well, we all win. 

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Posted (edited)

Linden Labs shot themselves in the foot and don't really care. They acquired "tunnel-vision" on the changes they want to complete, and never took a single look at the bigger picture. These changes hurt LL overall. It hurts new and upcoming merchants by shafting them with increased fees. It makes no difference to land ownership really... 20 dollar decrease in the cost? Sims are still too expensive for the more common people to obtain. The change might see an increase of 0.00001% in owners, which won't offset the lousy price decease. And it shafts those purchasing Lindens to be able to purchase anything on SL, by increasing the transaction fee and effectively giving us less money to play with.

And lets not even start on the basic membership? Really Linden Labs? What was the point of decreasing the Basic Membership Group count and offline IMs. We fought over and over again to have it increased. You gave us the increase and now you are taking it away.... This is extremely petty, almost childish on your part Linden Labs. Grow up, look at the bigger picture, and realize this is the 21st century. Screwing over even your basic membership is going to completely demolish you guys in the long run if you keep up with these petty cuts.

Edited by Xiolin Furlough
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1 minute ago, Xiolin Furlough said:

Linden Labs shot themselves in the foot and don't really care. They acquired "tunnel-vision" on the changes they want to complete, and never took a single look at the bigger picture. These changes hurt LL overall. It hurts new and upcoming merchants by shafting them with increased fees. It makes no difference to land ownership really... 20 dollar increase? Sims are still too expensive for the more common people to obtain. The change might see an increase of 0.00001% in owners, which won't offset the lousy price decease. And it shafts those purchasing Lindens to be able to purchase anything on SL, by increasing the transaction fee and effectively giving us less money to play with.

And lets not even start on the basic membership? Really Linden Labs? What was the point of deceasing the Basic Membership Group count and offline IMs. We fought over and over again to have it increased. You have us the increase and now you are taking it away.... This is extremely petty, almost childish on your part Linden Labs. Grow up, look at the bigger picture, and realize this is the 21st century. Screwing over even your basic membership is going to completely demolish you guys in the long run if you keep up with these petty cuts.

And I know this is somewhat apples to oranges since OpenSim is to SL what a small town to NYC, but I think it's fair to mention some of its grids offer 100 free groups - and they do this to ENCOURAGE membership and commerce. They do this for a reason - because they don't want to be small anymore. Maybe there is a negative side to that but as a user it makes me want to join more shop groups and shop more. 

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1 minute ago, mehllama said:

And I know this is somewhat apples to oranges since OpenSim is to SL what a small town to NYC, but I think it's fair to mention some of its grids offer 100 free groups - and they do this to ENCOURAGE membership and commerce. They do this for a reason - because they don't want to be small anymore. Maybe there is a negative side to that but as a user it makes me want to join more shop groups and shop more. 

Tell Linden Labs that.... Doubt they will listen though. It pretty apparent that they don't give a damn about the bigger picture of it all, and care little to nothing about the Second Life commerce other then lining their own pockets, and hurting all the common people in the process.

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About OpenSim. What OpenSims are there? I think Avination shut down. So I don't know what OpenSims still exist. Do any of them allow camping?  If an OpenSim were to allow camping, but not bots, then more people might join OpenSim.

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19 minutes ago, Desudesudesuka said:

his affects merchants in quite a major way, because we use groups for our stores.

It would ... if groups worked like they should for merchants.

Right now store groups are little more than a way for a customer to list your brand in their profile, support via groups has really too low a participation to be effective, group notices are only worth anything if you are online right as they are sent out ... so .. meh

Groups as social space is barely fit for purpose, but that does at least somewhat work.

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2 minutes ago, Frankie Antonioni said:

About OpenSim. What OpenSims are there? I think Avination shut down. So I don't know what OpenSims still exist. Do any of them allow camping?  If an OpenSim were to allow camping, but not bots, then more people might join OpenSim.

Opensim proved beyond all doubt that low land prices do not a community make ... and you're wondering if they have places you can idle for free money. Sheesh.

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Just now, Frankie Antonioni said:

About OpenSim. What OpenSims are there? I think Avination shut down. So I don't know what OpenSims still exist. Do any of them allow camping?  If an OpenSim were to allow camping, but not bots, then more people might join OpenSim.

There are myriad. Not very big but people tend to sort of go there when LL is down. OSGrid and Digiwordlz are probably the two largest, the latter actually having an economy while the former is more for testing. Their server software is free for anyone so you can start your own grid if you're technically inclined. But it is a lot like a small town vs the big city. Many of the things we enjoy in SL aren't a thing over there yet. The sim sizes can be 64 times as large as you find in SL (variable - or "var-" regions). 

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5 minutes ago, Xiolin Furlough said:

Tell Linden Labs that.... Doubt they will listen though. It pretty apparent that they don't give a damn about the bigger picture of it all, and care little to nothing about the Second Life commerce other then lining their own pockets, and hurting all the common people in the process.

I think they do care. They do tons of testing on stuff and I'll willing to bet testing shows that you and I will be here tomorrow, and you and I are still gonna pay our premium, and you and I are both going to suck it up and continue playing SL even with the increased premium and linden purchase/sell fees.

See you tomorrow :)

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Just now, Malin Sabra said:

I think they do care. They do tons of testing on stuff and I'll willing to bet testing shows that you and I will be here tomorrow, and you and I are still gonna pay our premium, and you and I are both going to suck it up and continue playing SL even with the increased premium and linden purchase/sell fees.

See you tomorrow :)

Dunno about you, but I don't pay premium. Its not worth it. Which is why I am peeved about the basic membership reductions, that literally make no sense other then to be petty in an attempt to make Premium look better then it actually is. Will I still be here? Yes, of course. But I won't be spending nearly as much money as I have been when it comes to purchasing things off of the marketplace.

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i will add my protest against reducing the number of groups allowed to Basic members

this is a bad move. More than bad its bordering on insanity

is almost like Pitchfork Linden went: I am going to have to necessarily stick it to merchants, basic and premium members with commerce fee increases. Necessarily stick it to premium members with premium fee increases.  But to maintain my reputation for unnecessary wilfulness I am going to doubly stick it to basic members by taking stuff away from them

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2 minutes ago, Xiolin Furlough said:

Dunno about you, but I don't pay premium. Its not worth it. Which is why I am peeved about the basic membership reductions, that literally make no sense other then to be petty in an attempt to make Premium look better then it actually is. Will I still be here? Yes, of course. But I won't be spending nearly as much money as I have been when it comes to purchasing things off of the marketplace.

While I do have stuff on the marketplace, I think we should buy less on the marketplace. Or even stop buying on the marketplace. Do this for 90 days. Perhaps more. Merchants would make less money, but LL would also make less money. If you plan to boycott the marketplace, then email LL. Tell them that you are going to boycott the marketplace until LL reverses its policy.

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8 minutes ago, Malin Sabra said:

I think they do care. They do tons of testing on stuff and I'll willing to bet testing shows that you and I will be here tomorrow, and you and I are still gonna pay our premium, and you and I are both going to suck it up and continue playing SL even with the increased premium and linden purchase/sell fees.

See you tomorrow :)

I think they do care and I think they are basically good people in there. But I do think they are missing the mark. 

As for premium users, not everyone can be. But they can buy and sell in-world, which directly contributes to LL financially as well as those happy users go and tell others who might join and might be able to be premium users. So you always want to try not to "other" certain groups within the overall userbase. 

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16 minutes ago, Frankie Antonioni said:

About OpenSim. What OpenSims are there? I think Avination shut down. So I don't know what OpenSims still exist. Do any of them allow camping?  If an OpenSim were to allow camping, but not bots, then more people might join OpenSim.

http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Grid_List

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5 minutes ago, CoffeeDujour said:

It would ... if groups worked like they should for merchants.

Right now store groups are little more than a way for a customer to list your brand in their profile, support via groups has really too low a participation to be effective, group notices are only worth anything if you are online right as they are sent out ... so .. meh

Groups as social space is barely fit for purpose, but that does at least somewhat work.

A lot of merchants are forcing people to join groups for free items so they do have some value to people. There's also groups for regular gifts, which are the ones people do not want to leave at any cost. Group notices aren't the greatest, but Caspervend's equivalent cannot be used for purely information/marketing so they serve a purpose. Customers asking questions in support groups and getting answers is sorta rare, as problems are - or should be - sorta rare, but I think it has a lot of value, if only to avoid potentially confused and upset customers.

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15 minutes ago, CoffeeDujour said:

support via groups has really too low a participation

You should hang out in the FS support group for a couple of days. It's almost always busy with people needing help of all kinds.

I promise I won't harass you. Much. xD

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1 minute ago, Desudesudesuka said:

A lot of merchants are forcing people to join groups for free items so they do have some value to people. There's also groups for regular gifts, which are the ones people do not want to leave at any cost. Group notices aren't the greatest, but Caspervend's equivalent cannot be used for purely information/marketing so they serve a purpose. Customers asking questions in support groups and getting answers is sorta rare, as problems are - or should be - sorta rare, but I think it has a lot of value, if only to avoid potentially confused and upset customers.

So what you are saying is THE REAL ISSUE is not the decrease in groups but group owners forcing people to join their group for benefits.... seems like group owners need to change their plan.

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6 minutes ago, Frankie Antonioni said:

While I do have stuff on the marketplace, I think we should buy less on the marketplace. Or even stop buying on the marketplace. Do this for 90 days. Perhaps more. Merchants would make less money, but LL would also make less money. If you plan to boycott the marketplace, then email LL. Tell them that you are going to boycott the marketplace until LL reverses its policy.

Just fyi, many of us use the MP as a catalog and make our purchases in world.  For me, personally, no inworld store? No sale. The exceptions to that rule are slim to none.

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Malin Sabra said:

So what you are saying is THE REAL ISSUE is not the decrease in groups but group owners forcing people to join their group for benefits.... seems like group owners need to change their plan.

No, because that is not an issue unless the cost of being in groups is in fact so high it cancels out the massive benefit of those 7 groups. It is nothing but good for everyone involved if people have a better time shopping and spending.

Edited by Desudesudesuka
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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Malin Sabra said:

So what you are saying is THE REAL ISSUE is not the decrease in groups but group owners forcing people to join their group for benefits.... seems like group owners need to change their plan.

While I agree, that it is an issue that store owners somewhat force/cohort users into joining their groups, its not as big as an issue as in General. I am a basic account. I was also an Estate Manager for a role-play sim. That can average between 8-10 groups just for that 1 place. Then you have to add on the places I want to frequent, that require specific group for land/rez rights. I am also a mod in 2 social groups. There are also beneficial groups for role play that I am a part of. All of that said, the current 42 group cap is filled up pretty fast. And I am only a member of 1, maybe 2 store groups.

EDIT: And take this with a grain of salt I suppose. I know that it is a very select minority of Store Owners that do the whole force/cohort thing, so while I say its an issue, it isn't a major issue or one that should be causing any sort of problems. I agree with posts above and below this one, that store groups can be beneficial. Both from an interaction stand point, and a commerce stand point.

Edited by Xiolin Furlough
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2 minutes ago, Malin Sabra said:

So what you are saying is THE REAL ISSUE is not the decrease in groups but group owners forcing people to join their group for benefits.... seems like group owners need to change their plan.

But that's not a bug but a feature. It's normal commerce to incentivize consumers to hang out at your store or join your group with discounts. Plus people see the group's name in profiles and as I often do then check out the group and then the store on MP to see what they have. Much of the time I find new and awesome stores this way. Also, many groups have very active chats - like Teegle, Tonic, and Maitreya. Those groups are always aflutter with activity. And then you have Truth which offers its regular freebie to its group. This is normal, healthy commerce and name-branding. 

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1 minute ago, mehllama said:

But that's not a bug but a feature. It's normal commerce to incentivize consumers to hang out at your store or join your group with discounts. Plus people see the group's name in profiles and as I often do then check out the group and then the store on MP to see what they have. Much of the time I find new and awesome stores this way. Also, many groups have very active chats - like Teegle, Tonic, and Maitreya. Those groups are always aflutter with activity. And then you have Truth which offers its regular freebie to its group. This is normal, healthy commerce and name-branding. 

 

2 minutes ago, Xiolin Furlough said:

While I agree, that it is an issue that store owners somewhat force/cohort users into joining their groups, its not as big as an issue as in General. I am a basic account. I was also an Estate Manager for a role-play sim. That can average between 8-10 groups just for that 1 place. Then you have to add on the places I want to frequent, that require specific group for land/rez rights. I am also a mod in 2 social groups. There are also beneficial groups for role play that I am a part of. All of that said, the current 42 group cap is filled up pretty fast. And I am only a member of 1, maybe 2 store groups.

Agree agree.

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3 hours ago, Heathernorton said:

I have 2 premium accounts , not going to renew early. I am very interested in this part:

Even more improvements to Premium Membership are coming later this year: more new Linden Home themes and options as well as the introduction of an all-new membership level for those who want to get the absolute most out of their Second Life. Look out for updates to Events and more limit increases as well. 

Perhaps having 1 and paying a bit more may get something worthwhile and wont need 2

Time will tell. If not, I will just go to one premium, i don't need two

 

I am not sure if I will renew early either, I also want to see what other stuff might coming.

I am also not upset about the increase, most things increase over time and it is just the way the world works.  Personally, I will still pay and still come here and play cause I just love SL that much and for me I really enjoy it.

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Posted (edited)

I live on a fixed income and have only one premium account but I have to ask, did Linden labs even consider this as a thing they needed to look out for?  I see a trickledown effect they won't like the results of happening soon. 

1) Premium goes up 

2) Retail space has to go rental rather than ownership because they can no longer afford 'land alts' to keep space open

3) People have fewer free $L to spend because they have fewer real bucks to spend. 

4) Less free income to spend on retail purchases means retailers go hungry, so they begin closing quickly...even moreso if they actually LIVE on their SL income and the transfer fees make it no longer feasable to make a meaningful profit.

5) Overall fewer memberships are created or maintained because there is little to no point to remaining in what will become an increasingly expensive and empty grid..thus far smaller.

 

I would also encourage LL to not reduce group slots for free members and consider a special premium tier fee (reduced, obviously)  for people on fixed incomes.

Edited by Lindsay Noonan
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7 minutes ago, Xiolin Furlough said:

While I agree, that it is an issue that store owners somewhat force/cohort users into joining their groups, its not as big as an issue as in General. I am a basic account. I was also an Estate Manager for a role-play sim. That can average between 8-10 groups just for that 1 place. Then you have to add on the places I want to frequent, that require specific group for land/rez rights. I am also a mod in 2 social groups. There are also beneficial groups for role play that I am a part of. All of that said, the current 42 group cap is filled up pretty fast. And I am only a member of 1, maybe 2 store groups.

EDIT: And take this with a grain of salt I suppose. I know that it is a very select minority of Store Owners that do the whole force/cohort thing, so while I say its an issue, it isn't a major issue or one that should be causing any sort of problems. I agree with posts above and below this one, that store groups can be beneficial. Both from an interaction stand point, and a commerce stand point.

Yeah. With SLCS and the airport I manage I'm in 10 groups alone, then the club I own two more, then two more as a Safe Waters Foundation officer, then land groups for rented parcels, my store - anything you're remotely seriously involved in requires multiple groups. For avis that are several years old, those connections can be quite broad. Granted, that's more of a social argument than a commercial one. But again it goes back to not making your users who do spend stuff necessarily unhappy. It's one thing to add features for premium accounts - great. But to strip down basic accounts may at some point start to make them feel kind of demo-ish.

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