Windlass Houseboat Interior Texture Issues?

[Beth Macbain]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

How do we know that “blue wall” won’t be used for a magical teleport, television, messages from LL, etc.?

Well crap! I've covered it now! What if my beloved @Quartz Mole is flashing messages on it asking me out on a date and I'm missing it??? DEAR GOD, WHAT HAVE I DONE???

[kiramanell]

12 hours ago, Leora Jacobus said:

Well I certainly did not want "to chide people about using the nice mesh option(s)"

Noone wants to reinvent the weel. I am not a big builder myself and for my Evening Star I bought the very nice addon by @Blush Bravin

Not knowing the Windlass in detail my advice was more of a general nature: If you have a problem,  just TRY to takle it yourself. Hiding a wall is easier than some Never-Builder might tend to think. If there is a window in it that MIGHT be solved by a Texture that has a transparent "hole" where the window is, and that can be placed exactly by stretching that texture and moving it on the prim.

Just to save prims I once (several years ago) made a cover of one wall of my little cottage in Ville de Coer that had two windows in it. I took a screenshot of the wall, made the windows sections transparent and added things like a mirror, a picture, curtains on the texture. ... just for fun ... I am not really a builder.

 

Taking a screenshot of a wall, only to create a tranparent cutout texture for it, to match the exact window position, is a nightmare, really, as even a minute misalignment means you'll have to reupload again (unless you have like a single-color, non-picture texture, that you're just stretching, like you said). Besides, more importantly, it's not taking care of the window frames. See for yourself:

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Windlass-Houseboat-Interior-Skin/17327055

(It's the wall to the far left.) Like Sylvia said, it's an alcove, along with the indented window frame. That whole structure is only 7 LI (for all walls put together). Can't beat that.

Also, windows are usually almost fully transparent (doh), and slightly tinted. When you slap another transparent texture over it, you will start to experience a well-known Z-index problem (also referred to as 'alpha sorting'), where the renderer can't make out which of the transparent surface will get priority, often leading to a rather annoying flickering (depending on your angle/position).

[Sylvia Tamalyn]

15 minutes ago, kiramanell said:

Also, windows are usually almost fully transparent (doh), and slightly tinted. When you slap another transparent texture over it, you will start to experience a well-known Z-index problem (also referred to as 'alpha sorting'), where the renderer can't make out which of the transparent surface will get priority, often leading to a rather annoying flickering (depending on your angle/position).

There's the deal breaker for me right there. I cannot stand flickering alphas/textures, not even a tiny bit of a flicker.

[kiramanell]

1 hour ago, Sylvia Tamalyn said:

There's the deal breaker for me right there. I cannot stand flickering alphas/textures, not even a tiny bit of a flicker.

 

Yeah. Like having wine glasses on a glass table. That's never ending well. 😄

You'd think your viewer knows the proper Z-index of all objects; and it does. But the underlying OpenGL driver (where those calculations are made) doesn't. So, there's no way to solve that, other than to just be aware of it, and avoid the alpha clash.

Edited June 13, 2019 by kiramanell

[LittleMe Jewell]

6 hours ago, kiramanell said:

 

Taking a screenshot of a wall, only to create a tranparent cutout texture for it, to match the exact window position, is a nightmare, really, as even a minute misalignment means you'll have to reupload again (unless you have like a single-color, non-picture texture, that you're just stretching, like you said). Besides, more importantly, it's not taking care of the window frames. See for yourself:

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Windlass-Houseboat-Interior-Skin/17327055

 

Question - for you or anyone that has used this - if you select the option to hide a window, what does that look like from outside?

[kiramanell]

33 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Question - for you or anyone that has used this - if you select the option to hide a window, what does that look like from outside?

 

Whatever you want it to look like.  You can just select the outside face and set it to 100% transparent.

[LittleMe Jewell]

28 minutes ago, kiramanell said:

 

Whatever you want it to look like.  You can just select the outside face and set it to 100% transparent.

I don't play with prims and textures much -- So, the 100% transparent would leave it looking like a window from the outside with a view in, just as before?  That sort of makes sense, but didn't dawn on me.  I was thinking you'd have to keep the blind down or else the view from outside looking in would just be seeing the back of a wall.. 

[kiramanell]

21 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

I don't play with prims and textures much -- So, the 100% transparent would leave it looking like a window from the outside with a view in, just as before?  That sort of makes sense, but didn't dawn on me.  I was thinking you'd have to keep the blind down or else the view from outside looking in would just be seeing the back of a wall.. 

 

Actually, I just checked: the mesh interior shell doesn't even have outer faces.  So, you can just position it, and that stairs window will stay open from the outside 'as is'.

[kiramanell]

41 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

I don't play with prims and textures much -- So, the 100% transparent would leave it looking like a window from the outside with a view in, just as before?  That sort of makes sense, but didn't dawn on me.  I was thinking you'd have to keep the blind down or else the view from outside looking in would just be seeing the back of a wall.. 

 

P.S. Yes, that's how it normally works: if you have a prim, and set one face 100% transparent, it will be, from that side looking in, as if it wasn't even there. That is how I treated my Windlass bedroom window, btw. From the interior view, one window is walled off, but, from the outside, you can just look in regularly. This I did, btw, to stay compliant with the Covenant, which expressly forbids us to change the exterior look (a wall behind a window might be an edge-case, as it would technically belong to the interior, but I decided to play nice all the same).

[Quartz Mole]

23 hours ago, Beth Macbain said:

Well crap! I've covered it now! What if my beloved @Quartz Mole is flashing messages on it asking me out on a date and I'm missing it??? DEAR GOD, WHAT HAVE I DONE???

Don't worry.   We moles have our super secret talpoid powers, and if we want to flash anything at you, you'll know about it (perhaps I could have phrased that rather more felicitously).

Edited June 14, 2019 by Quartz Mole

[Marianne Little]

9 hours ago, kiramanell said:

 

P.S. Yes, that's how it normally works: if you have a prim, and set one face 100% transparent, it will be, from that side looking in, as if it wasn't even there. That is how I treated my Windlass bedroom window, btw. From the interior view, one window is walled off, but, from the outside, you can just look in regularly. This I did, btw, to stay compliant with the Covenant, which expressly forbids us to change the exterior look (a wall behind a window might be an edge-case, as it would technically belong to the interior, but I decided to play nice all the same).

Nope. @Quartz Molecan come and chide me, but I wouldn't have the window open so everyone can look into my bedroom, or even worse, my bathroom.

So even if I had a transparent backside wall, I pulled down the blind on just that window, before I placed the wall there. The exterior look is the same. No one forbids us to have closed blinds. On the boats or houses. I see many choose to pull down the blinds and leave them there, because the window is facing something they don't want to look at, like the wall of another boat.

[Beth Macbain]

4 hours ago, Quartz Mole said:

Don't worry.   We moles have our super secret talpoid powers, and if we want to flash anything at you, you'll know about it (perhaps I could have phrased that rather more felicitously).

I... er... flashing... Quartz... oh... 

[kiramanell]

8 hours ago, Marianne Little said:

Nope. @Quartz Molecan come and chide me, but I wouldn't have the window open so everyone can look into my bedroom, or even worse, my bathroom.

So even if I had a transparent backside wall, I pulled down the blind on just that window, before I placed the wall there. The exterior look is the same. No one forbids us to have closed blinds. On the boats or houses. I see many choose to pull down the blinds and leave them there, because the window is facing something they don't want to look at, like the wall of another boat.

 

Huh?! Little confused here. 😕 @Quartz Mole seems to like your post, but who's talking about not being able to close the blinds on your windows? Certainly not me. I was talking about walling off a window from the outside. The Covenant says, "The exterior should always remain in theme out of consideration for your neighbors," to which I concluded, that walling off exterior windows (like essentially making your home look like a closed-off skybox from the outside, when done to the extreme), could probably be consider not having 'consideration for your neighbors.'

[Quartz Mole]

14 minutes ago, kiramanell said:

 

Huh?! Little confused here. 😕 @Quartz Mole seems to like your post, but who's talking about not being able to close the blinds on your windows? Certainly not me. I was talking about walling off a window from the outside. The Covenant says, "The exterior should always remain in theme out of consideration for your neighbors," to which I concluded, that walling off exterior windows (like essentially making your home look like a closed-off skybox from the outside, when done to the extreme), could probably be consider not having 'consideration for your neighbors.'

Sorry for any confusion I've inadvertently caused.

In this case, my liking the post was simply an acknowledgement of the name-check, and nothing should be read into it about LL's policies or covenants or anything else.    A bit like my liking something in my mentions on Twitter -- do we moles really need disclaimers on our profiles similar to "Like/Retweet != Agreement"?

I'd not followed that part of the discussion in any detail and I'm not even sure what the proposal actually involves.    Even if I did, my opinion would be worth no more than that of anyone else who'd read the covenant and considered the specific question in detail.   

When I comment here, it's usually just going to be to respond to particular issues that are within my competence and responsibility -- that is, typically script-related --  or to offer very general advice (or because @Beth Macbainwill miss me otherwise).     

For policy matters, you need Lindens like Patch and Constantine, not Moles.

Sorry to jump in like this but I had to make that clear for reasons I am sure you, and everyone else, will understand.

 

 

[kiramanell]

9 minutes ago, Quartz Mole said:

Sorry for any confusion I've inadvertently caused.

In this case, my liking the post was simply an acknowledgement of the name-check, and nothing should be read into it about LL's policies or covenants or anything else.    A bit like my liking something in my mentions on Twitter -- do we moles really need disclaimers on our profiles similar to "Like/Retweet != Agreement"?

I'd not followed that part of the discussion in any detail and I'm not even sure what the proposal actually involves.    Even if I did, my opinion would be worth no more than that of anyone else who'd read the covenant and considered the specific question in detail.   

When I comment here, it's usually just going to be to respond to particular issues that are within my competence and responsibility -- that is, typically script-related --  or to offer very general advice (or because @Beth Macbainwill miss me otherwise).     

For policy matters, you need Lindens like Patch and Constantine, not Moles.

Sorry to jump in like this but I had to make that clear for reasons I am sure you, and everyone else, will understand.

 

 

 

Thanks for this feedback!  I was just a little confused, is all. But yeah, I did think Moles were somehow involved with upholding the Covenant too. So, thx for clarifying that.

There was no proposal on my end, really. Just me basically doing little else than musing out-load, thinking Linden would probably not appreciate it if I started walling off windows from external view (with solid prims).

Edited June 14, 2019 by kiramanell

[Evangeline Ling]

7 minutes ago, kiramanell said:

 

There was no proposal on my end, really. Just me basically doing little else than musing out-load, thinking Linden would probably not appreciate it if I started walling off windows from external view (with solid prims).

To me this is such a nothing burger... there are far bigger exterior changes happening to houses than 1 window being covered... porches... boat extensions... garages... additional rooms which often cover up an exterior door...

I'm not complaining about any of these things, I think they are lovely and add character and variety to neighborhoods that essentially only have the same 4 homes over and over again...

I really doubt if all those things are ok that someone walling off a window (or adding a faux window) are somehow going to put someone in deep Linden doodoo...

Reading posts on these forums is starting to feel like an RL HOA... it's getting depressing

[kiramanell]

7 minutes ago, Evangeline Ling said:

To me this is such a nothing burger... there are far bigger exterior changes happening to houses than 1 window being covered... porches... boat extensions... garages... additional rooms which often cover up an exterior door...

I'm not complaining about any of these things, I think they are lovely and add character and variety to neighborhoods that essentially only have the same 4 homes over and over again...

I really doubt if all those things are ok that someone walling off a window (or adding a faux window) are somehow going to put someone in deep Linden doodoo...

Reading posts on these forums is starting to feel like an RL HOA... it's getting depressing

 

This shall be my last post in this thread, as it's obviously taking a turn for the worse.

Having said that, I see nothing wrong with me stating I wanted to err on the side of caution, for myself, Covenant-wise, not walling off exterior windows.

Also, nowhere is it written changes can't be made, even exterior ones. The Covenant only says 'the exterior should always remain in theme out of consideration for your neighbors.' Which I feel pretty much allows for anything that's not grossly out of theme. But, then again, I wasn't talking about what others are doing, but how I interpreted the Covenant for myself. 

[Quartz Mole]

1 hour ago, kiramanell said:

 

Thanks for this feedback!  I was just a little confused, is all. But yeah, I did think Moles were somehow involved with upholding the Covenant too. So, thx for clarifying that.

There was no proposal on my end, really. Just me basically doing little else than musing out-load, thinking Linden would probably not appreciate it if I started walling off windows from external view (with solid prims).

I'm not going to comment any further save to say that I've always considered it prudent, whether as a tenant or estate manager in SL, to consider the spirit as well as the letter of rules and covenants, and how they apply to the specific situation or object under discussion, having regard for all the material circumstances.  

Edited June 15, 2019 by Quartz Mole

[Beth Macbain]

4 hours ago, Quartz Mole said:

When I comment here, it's usually just going to be to respond to particular issues that are within my competence and responsibility -- that is, typically script-related --  or to offer very general advice (or because @Beth Macbainwill miss me otherwise).     

blushes rather fiercely

He speaks the truth, though. I'd miss him terribly, especially since I can't find anything wrong with any of the scripts on my boat anymore to entice him to stop by with his great big giant pickle. 

(That is not a euphemism... he really does have a big pickle!)

[Mollymews]

11 hours ago, Quartz Mole said:

 do we moles really need disclaimers on our profiles similar to "Like/Retweet != Agreement"?

you are now enlisted, whether you wanna be or not,  just because! into the cause of getting the forums boss on here to add an Agree button. So that Agree means Agree and Like means Like

so that as you say, we can Like what we might not agree with because the argument was well said. And we can Agree with something, even when we don't like it

[Marianne Little]

12 hours ago, kiramanell said:

 

Huh?! Little confused here. 😕 @Quartz Mole seems to like your post, but who's talking about not being able to close the blinds on your windows? Certainly not me. I was talking about walling off a window from the outside. The Covenant says, "The exterior should always remain in theme out of consideration for your neighbors," to which I concluded, that walling off exterior windows (like essentially making your home look like a closed-off skybox from the outside, when done to the extreme), could probably be consider not having 'consideration for your neighbors.'

I was only replying to this part: " From the interior view, one window is walled off, but, from the outside, you can just look in regularly. This I did, btw, to stay compliant with the Covenant, which expressly forbids us to change the exterior look."

The wording "forbid" suggested to me, that having the blinds down is forbidden, and that it will change the exterior look. The conclusion for me, was that you said it not compliant with the covenant to have the blinds down.

We were talking about one wall, and one wall with a closed window is far from "closed-off skybox". So.... yes, my post was that I disagree with what you said. Now you have to exaggerate it just to "take me" and pretend it was walls all around inside.

And also, things hanging on the wall, and furniture against the wall, will be strange to look at from the outside, and in my opinion, worse than blinds down. It will make decorating the interior difficult.

 

Does "forbid" mean anything else?

[kiramanell]

14 minutes ago, Marianne Little said:

We were talking about one wall, and one wall with a closed window is far from "closed-off skybox". So.... yes, my post was that I disagree with what you said. Now you have to exaggerate it just to "take me" and pretend it was walls all around inside.

 

This whole convo with you, to be frank, has been rather weird. I was talking about how I walled off a window (on the inside), but how I set the outer face of the prim to 100% transparent, so it basically wouldn't look disturbing from the outside in. And then, out of the blue, you pull this huge strawman, as if I had claimed putting down one's blinds is against the Covenant. That was all in your own head. It's probably a language barrier thing, as in: you don't seem to understand the difference between a 'closed' window (like with blinds), and a 'closed off' window (like with a prim, making it totally disappear). The two are so far apart, it's not even funny any more.

Also, I do not appreciate waking up one morning, seeing you go after me for something as ludicrously innocuous as me saying I tried to be considerate of the neighborhood, by making sure no one could see, from the outside in, that I actually removed a window from view on the inside.

[kiramanell]

35 minutes ago, Marianne Little said:

We were talking about one wall, and one wall with a closed window is far from "closed-off skybox". So.... yes, my post was that I disagree with what you said. Now you have to exaggerate it just to "take me" and pretend it was walls all around inside.

 

Nor did I say one wall is equal to a "closed-off skybox". What I said, as, that, in my thinking, walling off all windows on a houseboat would be tantamount to making it like a completely closed off skybox. And that Linden probably doesn't like that. From that, I concluded -- purely for myself -- that walling off an entire window would likely materially impact the intended look of the houseboat in such a way, that I decided to 'cheat' a little, and actually make it so you're not seeing it from the outside in. A decision, in no small part, given in by my remembering the Covenant actually said we're not even supposed to change exterior. When I looked it up again, this morning, the Covenant's actual (new?) wording is much milder. Still wouldn't have affected my decision, btw: I simply looked at the outside wall, with the double bedroom (side-) windows in it, and figured it would really look awkward had I completely walled those off. That was my call to make. Some windows I probably wouldn't mind walling off. Like there's this small upper window, on the side where the door is. At first I didn't even notice it was there, LOL, so, in my mind, that window obviously means less. But the bedroom (side-) windows felt essential to me, so I chose to preserve their outer look.

[Sylvia Tamalyn]

To be fair, I was confused by what you meant. It sounded like you were saying putting up a prim to cover a window from the inside would be forbidden. I actually almost typed a reply asking you why that would be different from closing the blinds. I'm still not sure what you were describing but as I don't have a Windlass, it's not necessary that I know.

[kiramanell]

13 hours ago, Quartz Mole said:

I'm not going to comment any further save to say that I've always considered it prudent, whether as a tenant or estate manager in SL, to consider the spirit as well as the letter of rules and covenants, and how they apply to the specific situation or object under discussion, having regard for all the material circumstances.  

 

Re hi.  Just wanted to quickly revisit this, as I saw you use the same word 'material' as I did, when I wondered what would "materially impact the intended look of the houseboat." On the Windlass, for instance, I think the huge glass window side, with doors to the 'terrace', certainly qualifies. Covering that entire side with a prim, I really think that LL would object to that. 😋 Other additions/addons, extended porches, upper decks, etc, might constitute a far more significant change, but IMHO, don't really materially change what it is: a houseboat. I think it's safe to say Linden probably even encourages that kind of variety (after all, all of Bellisseris was pretty much predicated upon the notion of not doing things the 'Copy & Paste' way).