Change Outfit Name Bug

[EnCore Mayne]

when i rename an outfit in the Appearance window, either the Outfit Gallery tab or Outfits tab (My Outfits in the SL viewer) the title of the outfit changes in the Edit Outfit window but the listed name in both gallery and outfits tabs stays the same until i relog. bug or feature?

[Alyona Su]

Bug. It happens sometimes where the name is updated but the dispaly in the list is not. When you relog it redraws all that so that's why it seems like it requires a relong. But many things in SL require a relog to correct.

[EnCore Mayne]

ya think it's on anyone's list to fix? last bug i tried to put into their JIRA thingy i was told off. what ARE they doing over there. how complicated can it be? a few days locked up in a dark room all alone with no food and water till they find it and squish it. i believe they are distancing themselves from us by putting up so many complicated barriers to hurdle. so it's buried in a heap of caca: here's a facemask and a flashlight. go get it.

[BelindaN]

It would be fantastic to be bug free but you sort of get used to it.

Yesterday I had all sorts of frustrations....slow rezzing was one. I hate sitting there looking at swirling smoke. Then I got incomplete rezzing, with stuff missing, and eventually ended up wearing two outfits at the same time, and not able to delete either. Then my head went missing, and so it went on, and it happened with both my alts over the session.

It took a few relogs to resolve but it did become OK,

But on the bright side, MP is better now and the gift function is back to how it was, and the TP log out thing seems to be fixed so Hurrah! for that.

So yeah, the outfit name thing is a minor blip, but in my experience it works fine most of the time.

[EnCore Mayne]

and, what function does the gear widget's "Always sort by name" toggle? seems to do nothing. acceptable to its client (LL) if they ever noticed? too late to fix? haha. is it too late for every little thing?

[BelindaN]

I guess LL work like me with my inventory. I want it perfect. I want to order it properly. I want to delete all the stuff I never wear. I want a properly listed record of saved outfits. And I work towards that every time I'm here, but I get distracted. Friends IM me. Want to meet up. Want to hang out and go shopping. And I distract myself by hanging about on beaches chatting to anybody.

So it would be nice to think that LL have a big list of stuff to do, just like me, and maybe one day they'll get around to the bottom of it!

[EnCore Mayne]

i'd really like to know what type of work environment LL has. i read that their pre Kingdon days were meh, whatever. coders would kinda pick tasks from a jar by whoever felt they might "work" on it. managing that type of relaxed human activity would be challenging if the board's power elite wanted a more traditional PR faced organization would be more suitable to their bottom line. the period where they turned towards schmoozing up to more legitimate "mainstream" avenues for revenue proved disastrous. the people who made the world left. not sure who has the fire in their belly within their current structure to address the user's passionate and real concerns to improve the "game". 

[EnCore Mayne]

meh, why worry?

[EnCore Mayne]

solved last problem of having Unsaved Changes hanging. rename outfit, relog, voila. shows as Now wearing...

[Nalates Urriah]

On 5/20/2019 at 3:48 AM, BelindaN said:

I guess LL work like me with my inventory. I want it perfect. I want to order it properly. I want to delete all the stuff I never wear. I want a properly listed record of saved outfits. And I work towards that every time I'm here, but I get distracted. Friends IM me. Want to meet up. Want to hang out and go shopping. And I distract myself by hanging about on beaches chatting to anybody.

So it would be nice to think that LL have a big list of stuff to do, just like me, and maybe one day they'll get around to the bottom of it!

You don't have to imagine they have a huge list, they do. Every week all the BUG Reports and Feature Requests are read and triaged. At the Server-Scripting and Content Creators' meeting they often get discussed. Each week some of the Lindens meet with users and talk about problems and provide status/progress reports. Inara Pey and I blog about what is going on in SL's tech and most of our information comes directly from the Lindens at these meetings.

How long does it take to get something done in SL Development?  Three years... or longer. There is a 360-Snapshot viewer that has been in RC for over a year. It get pushed to the back-burner as higher priority projects and issues crowd  in front.

The recent disconnection during TP or region crossing issue has consumed Linden resources and as best I can tell, all projects fell behind as the team concentrated on that single problem. This happens from time to time. Bakes On Mesh (BoM) and Enhanced Environment Project (EEP) are both well behind the planned release dates. The effort to move SL to the cloud has introduced problems. All the server operating system software has to be updated. When those updates rolled out we saw a huge increase in TP/crossing disconnects. The updates were rolled back as a temporary stop-gap, they added code to the servers to track the problem, for 2-weeks we have been testing fixes to the system in ADITI. We'll see those changes roll out to the RC channels of the main grid next week if things go well.

And there are the griefers and hackers... Linden engineers complain about the huge amount of time they spend defending SL.

There is a lot going on. If you know where to listen, you can keep up.

So... you are being fastidious when it comes to inventory? Then you should read, Is Second Life a Game?  

[EnCore Mayne]

44 minutes ago, Nalates Urriah said:

You don't have to imagine they have a huge list, they do.  

and the list of fixes? where does one go to recognize their achievements?

46 minutes ago, Nalates Urriah said:

... for 2-weeks we have been testing fixes to the system in ADITI.

your status is as a Linden or a user?

[Nalates Urriah]

On 5/26/2019 at 12:49 AM, EnCore Mayne said:

and the list of fixes? where does one go to recognize their achievements?

your status is as a Linden or a user?

The JIRA used to have a chart showing but report rates versus fix rates. I haven't tried to find it in the new JIRA. The rates were close to 1:1 back then with some lag. Sometimes they got behind sometimes ahead.

The viewer release notes have lists of the fixed bugs and added features. You can link to it from the viewer's HELP->About... The viewer is open source. So, users have an interest in that information and the Lindens are good about writing it up. The servers are proprietary. We get WAY less information about what is going on with the servers. The servers are the attack point for griefers and hackers in the ongoing cyber war.

The rest is observation of new features being released, which from time to time is posted in the SL Forum/Blog. 

The Lindens have been better about working with users since the arrival of Ebbe and Oz Linden and especially since Oz now heads up the SL engineering. So, we get to see what is coming and help with planning how new things will work. 

I think the last serious misstep by the Lab was mesh. They thought it would predominantly be for buildings and things. Oops. As users were trying to tell them at the time, it would be and is clothes.

The recent testing in ADITI to find the reasons for TP/Crossing disconnects was a Linden and user cooperative. Simon Linden got volunteers from the Server-Scripting UG to jump over to ADITI and use his TP-Device to teleport every 15 or so seconds. Members of the Beta Servers group sometimes get invites to help with testing. Those with TP problems were asked to provide viewer logs so they could see what was reported on the client side and know where to look in the server logs.

[EnCore Mayne]

50 minutes ago, Nalates Urriah said:

The viewer release notes have lists of the fixed bugs and added features. You can link to it from the viewer's HELP->About...

i've tried getting my head around the arcane and convoluted bug tracking/reporting maze they present to the hapless public user. i've actually managed to use it a few times without getting my wrists slapped. not feeling especially confident that any actual coders take the slightest notice. i'm seeing that maybe 6 out of the 350 total employees, spread over their 5 remaining locations worldwide, have a hand in addressing the nuisance we as users represent to their mundane daily chores. marshalling the forces to put out the untended fires is laughable, not laudable.

and btw Nalates, how do you remain so positive towards these powerful people when all i see of their tenure is the gutted skeletal remains of a once caring, feeling, and playful Lab. you never actually answered to my "we" reference as to your status amongst the cogniscenti. is your NDA showing?

[Nalates Urriah]

1 hour ago, EnCore Mayne said:

i've tried getting my head around the arcane and convoluted bug tracking/reporting maze they present to the hapless public user. i've actually managed to use it a few times without getting my wrists slapped. not feeling especially confident that any actual coders take the slightest notice. i'm seeing that maybe 6 out of the 350 total employees, spread over their 5 remaining locations worldwide, have a hand in addressing the nuisance we as users represent to their mundane daily chores. marshalling the forces to put out the untended fires is laughable, not laudable.

and btw Nalates, how do you remain so positive towards these powerful people when all i see of their tenure is the gutted skeletal remains of a once caring, feeling, and playful Lab. you never actually answered to my "we" reference as to your status amongst the cogniscenti. is your NDA showing?

The bug reporting is neither arcane nor convoluted. It is what is needed.

If one expects a bug/problem to be fixed they have to be able to say what the problem is. You can see the ridiculous pleas for help that often appear in the Answers section. No information and often not even a description of the problem. We may spend a number of posts spanning a day or more just getting enough information from the person to have an idea what they may be experiencing. With weak to no description of a bug/problem the triage people mark the report, 'Needs more information' and move on. The Lindens simply do not have the manpower to waste chasing a user to to get useful information or speculating on the problem. But, each week all the reports are read and triaged.

While you may imagine that coders never notice your bug reports, I have personal experience they do. For a couple of problems and a couple of aspects of new features I've had email exchanges with the actual coders. Knowing some of the people making or working on viewers, Black Dragon, Firestorm, Catznip, and hearing how they work with... or not... the Lindens hear more evidence of the Linden coders working with users.

Your perception of the Linden employees is out of touch with reality. When Sansar development started up many of the people we have chose to stay with the SL project. There are a few that move between SL and Sansar, because they specialize in exotic fields both projects use. Most of the Linden employees enjoy their job. SL provides some novel problems and experience in fields of programming that few other places do.

Those that interface with users are consistent in most of their opinions. Also, a number of them have personal avatars (as opposed to company avatars) and are playing in SL. Strawberry Singh is now an employee. A number of LL employees have been hired from the user base.

That you think the Lindens see users as a nuisance is projection on your part. The free market world of a medium size company is much different.

I have no NDA with Linden Lab. I am a user. I do have more contact with Lindens than 99% of the users. There are probably a half dozen or so Lindens that know me by name. One or two might even like me... or not, not sure. I'm not a well known Whirly Fizzle. A couple of my favorite big-name-brand designers know me well enough that we have Discord discussions about SL what is planning and when a change is likely to occur. 

Anyone can be cognizant of what is going on in SL The weekly and monthly UG meetings with the Lindens provide information, project status, and a sense of the various Lindens' personality. Plus there are various blogs that report on the various aspects of SL.

[EnCore Mayne]

2 hours ago, Nalates Urriah said:

The bug reporting is neither arcane nor convoluted. It is what is needed.

You can see the ridiculous pleas for help that often appear in the Answers section.

While you may imagine that coders never notice your bug reports,

Your perception of the Linden employees is out of touch with reality.

That you think the Lindens see users as a nuisance is projection on your part.

I have no NDA with Linden Lab. I am a user. I do have more contact with Lindens than 99% of the users.

if my perceptions and frustrations over false expectations are not equal to the level of comprehension you have made for yourself, that still doesn't mean they're wrong and be done with them.  like the vast majority of users beneath your exhalted position, ignorant or helpless, i'm only trying to understand why the world is so cruel and unforgiving. it's not my world. i didn't make it. i simply build and play within it and i'm damned if i find anything that doesn't work.

i don't know your situation or how you use the tools available in the world. if your answer is to ignore these annoying foibles and sing the praises of the far bigger and far better features to come without addressing what's already broke, what does that say about the issues arising from the New features we're obviously going to have to fix?

in a perfect world, everything rolled out wouldn't need fixing. unfortunately, that dream wouldn't need to come with any organizational structure where the people who make the world have to answer the clamouring hordes who's reality is avoided or diminished. that's no way to pull people out of the quagmire of what is.

is it too much to ask? why should "it's broken or missing, it won't be fixed because, blah, blah, blah." be a suitable response? one might come away with a defeated "who cares" attitude. and i'm sure you agree we don't want that.

Edited May 27, 2019 by EnCore Mayne

[Nalates Urriah]

@EnCore Mayne  Perceptions… expectations… When our perceptions and expectations cause us frustration it is generally time to question them and bring them in line with reality. Our debate and discussion make yours neither right nor wrong. Both by their nature are very often wrong. There are facts and evidence that determine whether yours or on or off point. But you can stick by yours, avoid examining reality, and remain frustrated.

Seeing the world as cruel is projection. The world is just what it is, neither cruel nor kind and generally unaware of us. Read Dawkins on that point. It is what we make of it. People and governments may abuse and treat us cruelly. It only matters whether we decide to be victims or not. The flood of propaganda from media and politicians is designed to divide people and create victimhood. We choose to accept or resist those ideas.

Your idea that the Lindens move on to new features without fixing existing problems while debatable won’t stand up to examination of events. BoM, EEP, and the 360-Snapshot have all been delayed while the teleport-crossing disconnection problem was resolved. We will hopefully see better tp-crossings this week as a new set of fixes roll out.

While you can show things we, and most including Lindens, consider broken that are left unfixed the reasons why for those issues is worth examining. Does one hold up a feature 600,000 will use to fix a problem affecting 2 people?

There is a mix of lingering unfixed problems and resolved issues. The resolved far outweigh the lingering. Humans always notice the mistakes. It is a failing of our perceptions and nature.

I agree new features often bring new problems. Samsung had batteries catching fire in their newly released S7 model. Their first foldable screens are breaking. Car models get recalled to fix screw ups. That is the nature of human advancement.

Goethe is quoted as saying, “By seeking and blundering we learn.”

Richelle E. Goodrich, “Many times what we perceive as an error or failure is actually a gift. And eventually we find that lessons learned from that discouraging experience prove to be of great worth.”

When you write ‘…that's no way to pull people out of the quagmire of what is…’ you reveal a misperception of the world. Nanny-state governments push the idea it is their job to lift you up and you seem to believe it.

The free world and its free market endeavor to avoid interfering with people so they can lift themselves up as they see fit. Government’s job, at least in the US, was to be like that of a referee to keep things fair… level… It is not a ref’s job to help either side win, but to ensure equal opportunity.  No other system has killed so few people and lifted so many out of poverty, the quagmire.

SL users have found numerous ways to work around the problems and limitations within the SL system. The Linden engineers often remark they are happily… eagerly… waiting to see what people do with new features. The entire mesh clothing industry in SL developed as it did from the Linden desire to remain compatible with legacy content and users desire to make something better and easier to use. Once the Lindens could see the magnitude of interest and the enormous use-case they changed their thinking about how mesh would be used and found a path from the user found workaround Liquid Mesh to Fitted Mesh.

Your perception leading to ‘…it won't be fixed because, blah, blah, blah." be a suitable response?’ reveals more of your thinking. It won’t be fixed because [insert various reasons here] is a valid answer, but one does have to read the ‘blah, blah, blah’ part to understand. And nothing says we have to agree with their reasoning. In which case it becomes our job to change their minds with better reasoning, if we want to see it change.

The ideas pushed by media and politicians and adopted by massive numbers of people today is to avoid debate based on reason and make emotional attacks on those not doing as we want. That reinforces the idea of division, which benefits politicians. Resist.

I’m not one of the SL elite or insiders. I am an SL user. The difference between us is in how we think of SL and the world around us. I think I have a far more accurate perception of the Lindens and how they perceive SL than many. I believe that because the Bug Reports and Feature Requests I put in get handled, mostly. Not because “I” put them in, but because they fit with the Linden thinking and goals. I built my understanding by looking for facts and observing behavior while making an effort to keep my biases out.

SL is what we make of it. Or we can be a victim and let SL make us…

[EnCore Mayne]

19 minutes ago, Nalates Urriah said:

Does one hold up a feature 600,000 will use to fix a problem affecting 2 people?

while i appreciate your voluminous philosophical regurgitation, it serves only to reiterate my earlier assertions. as it is, i don't have the time to correct your subjective and selective misinterpretations of my human suffering, thank you for allowing me to see The way.

unfortunately, that still leaves us with what should practically be done with the BUG. leaning on a sophist's rationale is still an excuse for not fixing it. no matter how trivial, if it's reproduceable it affects everyone who encounters the expected behaviour. simply reporting it to the Lab, in their chosen manner, should solicit an acceptable official response. or not. 

if not, can we continuously lose the lesser kind to feel as if they have no avenue for effective interaction? 

[Mollymews]

1 hour ago, Nalates Urriah said:

Richelle E. Goodrich, “Many times what we perceive as an error or failure is actually a gift. And eventually we find that lessons learned from that discouraging experience prove to be of great worth.”

 

Job 6:10. Then I would still have this consolation — my joy in unrelenting pain — that I had not denied the words of the Holy Linden One

Job 16:6. Yet if I speak, my pain is not relieved; and if I refrain, it does not go away

its a pain that the Outfits dialog is incomplete

[Nalates Urriah]

1 minute ago, Mollymews said:

its a pain that the Outfits dialog is incomplete

I hadn't noticed...

[Mollymews]

10 minutes ago, Nalates Urriah said:

I hadn't noticed...

I noticed what the OP asked. As have others in this thread.  The OP was pretty easy understood.  Is it a feature or a bug that when we rename an Outfit and press Save then the new name doesn't display until we relog. This is a pain

it is also a pain that to avoid the relog then we have to SaveAs to re-create it as a new outfit and then delete the  original

 

[Ivanova Shostakovich]

On 5/27/2019 at 8:47 AM, Nalates Urriah said:

I think the last serious misstep by the Lab was mesh. They thought it would predominantly be for buildings and things. Oops. As users were trying to tell them at the time, it would be and is clothes.

   If this is true, it absolutely floors me. Almost every resource SL residents have ever been given has been used toward this end, not exclusively, but with considerable zeal and ingenuity.

[Mollymews]

31 minutes ago, Ivanova Shostakovich said:

   If this is true, it absolutely floors me. Almost every resource SL residents have ever been given has been used toward this end, not exclusively, but with considerable zeal and ingenuity.

the comment that Linden thought mesh would predominantly be for buildings and things is attributable to Qarl Fizz (once Qarl Linden) who said this after he didn't get his contract with LL renewed. Nobody else Linden has ever said this. Qarl's departure from LL was a quite fraught time, not only for Qarl but also for other contractors and staff who were also let go at that time

[Nalates Urriah]

6 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

the comment that Linden thought mesh would predominantly be for buildings and things is attributable to Qarl Fizz (once Qarl Linden) who said this after he didn't get his contract with LL renewed. Nobody else Linden has ever said this. Qarl's departure from LL was a quite fraught time, not only for Qarl but also for other contractors and staff who were also let go at that time

You may want to talk with Cathy Foil, the MayaStar author. She was another one of us that participated in the mesh design and testing process. Medhue was around too.

It wasn't just Qarl making the statement. I personally would not attribute the source of the claim to him. Charlar Linden (Charlar mentions in my blog 2011-2012) was another talking about the design goals and thinking within the Lab at the time before and after his employment with the Lab. He and I kept in touch for a time after he left. He was pretty clear on the goals the Lab set for the first mesh dev phase.

While my opinion is the mesh design effort was not as open as the Bento and Animesh design efforts it wasn't that much different. I have videos of those later meetings up on YouTube. You can see Vir and Rider behaving very similarly to what I saw during mesh development.

Outfit Names - I run into this in Firestorm. I find it makes a difference whether I click OK after an outfit rename or move the cursor to the end of the change and press Enter or tab-out of the entry field then press Enter or click OK.

But, whether the name changes or not is not an issue for me. If I think the change may not have taken or that I may have made a mistake, I click RENAME again and check. I would never bother to relog to force a change to appear. It isn't enough of a problem I would file a JIRA to get it fixed. However, Beq Janus, one of the FS peeps has filed BUG-40940 - 2016. An excellent report. To date there is 1 person Watching the report. This would be a good foundation for claiming no one is interested... so why bother fixing it?

BUG-40463 is another, Created and renamed outfit, outfit's name doesn't change until relog. Sept 8, 2016 and is a dup of BUG-8604, 2015. Totaling the watchers for all 3 we have a whopping 6 users watching (interested) in the problem.

The Lab's position is this is such a small annoyance it is a LOW LOW priority to fix. They have bigger fish to fry.

I know lots of people point to these little long lingering problems as proof the Lindens never fix anything. But, those claims don't fit reality. 

The recent Disconnect Problem is an example of a cycle we see often. People started complaining,a few filed JIRA reports, a few watched, the Lindens looked and could not duplicate the problem. They are beind on BoM and EPP and pushing to get other things done. More and more people were showing up at meetings going HEY! I gots a problem! People that help with viewer development were showing up and emailing about fixes asking for some server side help. Oz Linden out in Boston was making 400 Tps and never disconnecting. They simply could not see the problem.

Finally the effort was made to quantify the problem and logging of related events was added to the servers. Then OMG! We see it. People were dumped on the problem and we have a significant set of changes to the crossing-tp code rolling out this week. 

The lesson is to understand what the Lindens see and understand how and why the prioritize as they do. And when they can't see something to convince them they need to look harder.

[Mollymews]

7 hours ago, Nalates Urriah said:

Outfit Names - I run into this in Firestorm. I find it makes a difference whether I click OK after an outfit rename or move the cursor to the end of the change and press Enter or tab-out of the entry field then press Enter or click OK.

But, whether the name changes or not is not an issue for me. If I think the change may not have taken or that I may have made a mistake, I click RENAME again and check. I would never bother to relog to force a change to appear. It isn't enough of a problem I would file a JIRA to get it fixed. However, Beq Janus, one of the FS peeps has filed BUG-40940 - 2016. An excellent report. To date there is 1 person Watching the report. This would be a good foundation for claiming no one is interested... so why bother fixing it?

BUG-40463 is another, Created and renamed outfit, outfit's name doesn't change until relog. Sept 8, 2016 and is a dup of BUG-8604, 2015. Totaling the watchers for all 3 we have a whopping 6 users watching (interested) in the problem.

The Lab's position is this is such a small annoyance it is a LOW LOW priority to fix. They have bigger fish to fry.

I know lots of people point to these little long lingering problems as proof the Lindens never fix anything. But, those claims don't fit reality.

so we agree then that there is an issue with the Save function, which is what the OP was about

that you, others, A Linden Another Linden, me as well, have our own views on what is important and would like Linden to prioritise, doesn't change the fact that there is an issue. When there are issues that do matter to people then they will raise it

with the last sentence "... Lindens never fix anything". What a person tyically means when they say this is that Linden doesn't prioritise according to that person's priority list of stuff that matters to them

[Alyona Su]

11 hours ago, Mollymews said:

with the last sentence "... Lindens never fix anything". What a person tyically means when they say this is that Linden doesn't prioritise according to that person's priority list of stuff that matters to them

Best comment of the thread winner. You get an extra-large slice of fudge brownie.

I find it amazingly entertaining every time anyone bashes on Lindens or Linden Lab. I have been pretty forgiving since my first three months in-world. These are just people trying to put food on the table and if it were all so easy we wouldn't need them because anyone could do it. But it is the "it's all about MOI" times and so it is unlikely to change any time soon.