Tristan Careless Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 @Chic Aeon I dont think he is implying that cheap means stolen. Although I don't necessarily understand your selling practices, it is absolutely your prerogative to price things as you wish (of course). I believe he is referencing those with endless supply AND/OR those who sell full sets at a ridiculously low amount. DESTROYS the market (as I am sure you well know). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chic Aeon Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 5 minutes ago, Tristan Careless said: @Chic Aeon I dont think he is implying that cheap means stolen. Although I don't necessarily understand your selling practices, it is absolutely your prerogative to price things as you wish (of course). I believe he is referencing those with endless supply AND/OR those who sell full sets at a ridiculously low amount. DESTROYS the market (as I am sure you well know). I purchase a fair amount on the gacha aftermarket and I am just a consumer, not a reseller. That may have been his point, if so it wasn't stated all that clearly. If for example I play a gacha because there are a fair amount of things that I want -- then I have no problem at all selling the things that I don't want at cost (or cost plus 10 for the Marketplace) to get my money back. It isn't hurting ME at all. Not everyone uses gachas as a means of making money. At the same time -- as a gacha MAKER (not seller but making gacha products and selling as such) I can say that some folks come and buy 30 or 40 items on the same machine -- in part perhaps to get a "bonus" item if offered but also I believe because they can sell things easily for a bit more money (so a "good value" gacha). So an honest person could have a LOT of one product. At the recent AF gacha sale I played and got a bunch of things that I didn't want and sold them all at cost plus fee. Well I don't think the RARE sold yet, but most of the other things. And sometimes folks return and buy even more from one of my gacha machines -- so there ARE some honest sellers that have a big supply. Realistically all they have to do is come play a machine again to get more goods to sell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OxfordLennox Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 @Chic Aeon i have a huge supply and i know i am a legit seller. I am not talking about it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tristan Careless Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 Regardless of how or why, selling a new gacha item that was 75L a pull for 30L the day after it comes out DOES, in fact, destroy a market. I'm not suggesting you do that, just stating that others do; and they do it often. I know you, Chic; and I know you are an honest seller as are most. That's not in question. We could discuss pricing strategies all day, but I believe the purpose of all of this is to try to find a way to alleviate the fraud issue. I still like the idea of letting a seller toggle whether or not they want items to be sold as gifts. As for his [Ox's] comment not being stated clearly, I know for fact that English is not his native language. I'm sure he was not implying you were dishonest. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarquisdeSadeJustine Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 Insurance protection? We give lindens insurance payment so they don't stick us with reversed charges? Excellent thought. Sounds a bit like paying the mafia to protect your store tho.... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chic Aeon Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 Not trying to argue at all but the same thing is happening on NON gacha items in case you haven't noticed. LOL. Many brands are having MANY SALES and the prices (not always but often) are dropping. Only so many lindens being spent these days -- plenty of retailers to choose from. So the gacha market isn't all that different from the regular "copy" market so far as pricing goes. AND for example, there are (legitimate) "creators" who buy full perm mesh and then resell it for pennies on the dollar (which they are allowed by many to most full perm EULAs) and that pretty much wrecks the market there. So gachas resellers are not alone. I DO agree that losing your investment when it wasn't your fault is both SAD and disturbing. A couple of decades ago when I made my living on the web, someone "ran my market" with a stolen credit card. Now my items were all digital and obviously not one only products, BUT along with that loss the credit card company that my products went through not only took away all the money from the fraudulent sale, they also CHARGED ME A HUGE FEE. What on earth did "I" do? I immediately dropped the credit card company and from them on had people PREPAY through Paypal or check (which I waited to clear). This worked well for me for many years -- but only because I was pretty much in high demand and one of the few that did what I did. Still, worse in RL. And definitely "not fair". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diamond Caudron Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 1 hour ago, MarquisdeSadeJustine said: Insurance protection? We give lindens insurance payment so they don't stick us with reversed charges? Excellent thought. Sounds a bit like paying the mafia to protect your store tho.... Insurance protection should already be included with the current MP fee in my opinion. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fneil8 Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 Dear Fneil8 Resident,We regret to inform you that the L$ recently sent to you may have been obtained through an unauthorized source. Per the Terms of Service and due to the manner in which the L$ were originally obtained, the L$ have been voided from your account.L$ [1350] that was sent on [1/29/2020] have been assessed.We understand the fraudulent Linden Dollars were used to purchase item(s) from your store. As stated in our Privacy Policy, we are unable to discuss another person’s account. While we cannot return the items to you, we can assure you every measure has been taken to secure the accounts and reduce the impact of this fraudulent transaction. I agree with others that it's not fair to take money ,we can't know who is buying our product. Last year, I was also charged for a Santa costume . But it was made by me with copies and I turned a blind eye to it . But now the gacha suit for 1500 went with the money and I was left with a nose . I believe Linden lab should not take money from the store because the game is close to real and the fact that a thief buys food and things in stores for stolen money law enforcement agencies do not confiscate the money that was spent for bread for example . This is wrong. Punish the criminal, but don't touch the innocent or take them away . I'm sad. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albus Rothmoor Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 (edited) An idea occurred to me. Would it in anyway violate TOS if we put our listings as $0 (the item they receive is maybe just a box with the gacha key) and in the description state the price we want for it and that they should contact us to inspect and purchase it in world?We could even add something like due to recent fraudulent activity we are forced to take these measures. Edited February 2, 2020 by GrandDukeDylan Rothmoor 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Galli Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 2 minutes ago, GrandDukeDylan Rothmoor said: An idea occurred to me. Would it in anyway violate TOS if we put our listings as $0 (the item they receive is maybe just a box with the gacha key) and in the description state the price we want for it and that they should contact us to inspect and purchase it in world? Not permitted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albus Rothmoor Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 Just now, Pamela Galli said: Not permitted. So why are the real estate companies allowed to have $L0 listings on the MP? Or even when they put a price the transaction happens in world? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulfie Reanimator Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 (edited) 11 minutes ago, GrandDukeDylan Rothmoor said: So why are the real estate companies allowed to have $L0 listings on the MP? Or even when they put a price the transaction happens in world? You aren't allowed to sell "non-items" on MP. The land market is a special exception. Edit: I guess if the item is 0 L$ you could argue otherwise, but you'll have to go re-read the MP listing rules or ask a Linden. Edited February 2, 2020 by Wulfie Reanimator 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Galli Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 39 minutes ago, GrandDukeDylan Rothmoor said: So why are the real estate companies allowed to have $L0 listings on the MP? Or even when they put a price the transaction happens in world? Well I have not checked with LL but I imagine because you can’t put a piece of land in a folder to sell on the marketplace. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mollymews Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 2 hours ago, GrandDukeDylan Rothmoor said: An idea occurred to me. Would it in anyway violate TOS if we put our listings as $0 (the item they receive is maybe just a box with the gacha key) and in the description state the price we want for it and that they should contact us to inspect and purchase it in world?We could even add something like due to recent fraudulent activity we are forced to take these measures. started me thinking how to turn the Marketplace into a gacha machine ? is kinda doable this like buy my Teddy Bear for 50L. when you rez it goes: Pssst! I like you ever so much. So I am going to give you another teddy bear for free !! which could be like a pretty ordinary looking teddy bear, or a really really cute one which only really special people get is not gambling because I sold you a actual teddy bear for 50L. Which does what teddy bears do, like can snuggle it, or can just let it lay around sleeping like any normal teddy bear does Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephanieBell Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 (edited) I haven't been involved with gacha all that long and had no idea how many weary resellers have been fighting this same battle for years, suffering silently or, coming to the forums in hopes of help and guidance and getting no tangible resolutions. Reading these most recent posts I see MP gacha resellers truly are the low man on the merchant totem pole. Land sellers not only get to list on MP with no commission charges but also get to advertise for free in the forums? Where is the community equity in that? With regard to linden dollar assessments generally I am now also wondering what happens when in-world vendors, a tenants rent or a tip to a club or DJ are paid with fraudulent funds? Are these lindens also reclaimed and the resident penalized? A topic for another thread however. How about... if not already done, each gacha item created is given a unique ID number at creation/point of sale. Any items a resident feels valuable enough could register items to a searchable database? If my item gets stolen from MP, or I just want to know if I am buying a legitimate gacha item, I can search the journey of the item. The information is already there in the system, it just could be programmed to present itself differently? Then if my item is stolen, if I so choose, I could track it down myself and when I find its location report it to LL, with relevant details and proof of transaction, linden dollar assessment, etc. for retrieval? Would this be workable? No idea, just throwing out ideas and asking others to do the same in hope that something sticks. There must be more ideas out there and if you have them please join the discussion. I am just a small gacha reseller who wants a safe and fair system for all. And I want people's stolen items returned - it's irrelevant if it is $35L or $3500L - it's the principle. Edited February 2, 2020 by StephanieBell typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connorboy26 Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 I am not sure why the gift option is people's focus. None of my items were bought as gift, I'm assuming they were bought and then transferred to another avi. I just lost a further 8K today and I am expecting more. I unlisted most of my MP items yesterday. LL need to wear the loss through an insurance premium which they can take out of their 10% commission. It is the fairest solution and restores faith that they are trying to protect all parties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connorboy26 Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 2 hours ago, GrandDukeDylan Rothmoor said: An idea occurred to me. Would it in anyway violate TOS if we put our listings as $0 (the item they receive is maybe just a box with the gacha key) and in the description state the price we want for it and that they should contact us to inspect and purchase it in world?We could even add something like due to recent fraudulent activity we are forced to take these measures. Because they could still rip you off inworld with the fraudulently obtained avi..... It's taking LL 2 days to catch up. It might slow the process down a bit, but create major inconvenience for the legitimate buyer who wants the item now, not when you awaken in your time zone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connorboy26 Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 7 hours ago, Chic Aeon said: Not trying to argue at all but the same thing is happening on NON gacha items in case you haven't noticed. LOL. Many brands are having MANY SALES and the prices (not always but often) are dropping. Only so many lindens being spent these days -- plenty of retailers to choose from. So the gacha market isn't all that different from the regular "copy" market so far as pricing goes. AND for example, there are (legitimate) "creators" who buy full perm mesh and then resell it for pennies on the dollar (which they are allowed by many to most full perm EULAs) and that pretty much wrecks the market there. So gachas resellers are not alone. I DO agree that losing your investment when it wasn't your fault is both SAD and disturbing. A couple of decades ago when I made my living on the web, someone "ran my market" with a stolen credit card. Now my items were all digital and obviously not one only products, BUT along with that loss the credit card company that my products went through not only took away all the money from the fraudulent sale, they also CHARGED ME A HUGE FEE. What on earth did "I" do? I immediately dropped the credit card company and from them on had people PREPAY through Paypal or check (which I waited to clear). This worked well for me for many years -- but only because I was pretty much in high demand and one of the few that did what I did. Still, worse in RL. And definitely "not fair". Honestly, how does this help us here? Most here have been, and are continuing to be stung, why would you post that in here now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chic Aeon Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 (edited) 6 minutes ago, connorboy26 said: Honestly, how does this help us here? Most here have been, and are continuing to be stung, why would you post that in here now? My point was that there are plenty of business practices in SL (the folks before me mentioned legitimate gacha resellers pricing items low ) that hurt other sellers and that it isn't JUST gacha sales. Sorry if you think that was inappropriate. You can certainly report my post and the mods can decide. Edited February 2, 2020 by Chic Aeon spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connorboy26 Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 1 minute ago, Chic Aeon said: My point was that there are plenty of business practices in SL (the folks before me mentioned legitimate gacha resellers pricing items low ) that hurt other sellers and that it isn't JUST gacha sales. Sorry if you think that was inappropriate. You can certainly report my post and the mods can decide. This thread is about people who are losing money for a particular type of fraud. It was pointed out to you that he's not referring to all low priced resellers, hes talking about the ones that still seem to be listing their items during this fraud crisis, at low prices, because it doesn't effect them either because they are copybotters (can produce more) or they are possibly stolen merch. Nobody has a problem with low priced legitimate items - I love them. Buy them even 🙂 I understand their are other types of rip off scams but can we please keep this thread dedicated to this issue because right now, my store in effectively closed and my linden balance is dropping by the day. I'd just like to stay abreast of this one issue at this time. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albus Rothmoor Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 I have reviewed the guidelines and there seems to be nothing from the letter of the law point of view to stop one from selling a freebie actual item with a 'pitch' in the description. I have also added this statement to help others become aware of our plight "Due to the large scale recent fraudulent activity on the MP it is no longer safe to sell full sets here. I hope LL will be able to provide us with greater protection or recourse soon." No doubt the Lab will claim my actions violate the spirit of the law and I would totally understand that point of view however I hope by that time they have given us a better alternative and see that my protest was pragmatic and with good intention. The fact is in the decade I have been on SL the community have weathered many scams mostly by being careful ourselves. Second Life truly has one principle duty and that is asset protection. They are supposed to provide us with a platform and peace of mind to spend freely and engage with others. I have been selling vintage and antique jewelry online for over 7 years and have never seen such despair from online sellers. As complicated as working with credit card companies and Paypal can sometimes be at least there is a process and hope. So if any of the Lindens are reading this thread, please restore our peace of mind and give us pragmatic solutions. I don't know how this was already a big issue in 2017 and yet nothing was done. I can only assume that it effected LL bottom line so little and the outcry was so weak that they just brushed it under the carpet and hoped it would go away. Well it hasn't and we are not willing to stop enjoying the platform we love in-spite of this. I certainly do not make my living in Second Life (though I know a good many that do) but what I do know is theft is theft and this has and continues to create a tremendous amount of suffering for those who invest their time, energy, passion and love into making the Second Life experience amazing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Jagix Linden Posted February 2, 2020 Moderators Share Posted February 2, 2020 9 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said: You aren't allowed to sell "non-items" on MP. The land market is a special exception. Edit: I guess if the item is 0 L$ you could argue otherwise, but you'll have to go re-read the MP listing rules or ask a Linden. I can't speak to the rest of this forum topic, but "Information-only" listings are not permitted. Selling something for 0L$ that essentially gives you an advertisement for the real item would result in the item being delisted. That, and a bunch of angry buyers. Buyers do not like it when they have to read into the item description to understand what they're getting as-is. Imagine how much worse it will be if they're not even getting the item. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albus Rothmoor Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 8 minutes ago, Jagix Linden said: I can't speak to the rest of this forum topic, but "Information-only" listings are not permitted. Selling something for 0L$ that essentially gives you an advertisement for the real item would result in the item being delisted. That, and a bunch of angry buyers. Buyers do not like it when they have to read into the item description to understand what they're getting as-is. Imagine how much worse it will be if they're not even getting the item. I am not selling an empty item I made a nice Freebie they can put on their wall that is copy mod and as soon as LL stops trying to tell us to just accept being the victim I will convert those listings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albus Rothmoor Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 Well I promptly got my answer to that not so gray zone my items were flagged and delisted so back to square one haha 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connorboy26 Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 23 minutes ago, GrandDukeDylan Rothmoor said: I have reviewed the guidelines and there seems to be nothing from the letter of the law point of view to stop one from selling a freebie actual item with a 'pitch' in the description. I have also added this statement to help others become aware of our plight "Due to the large scale recent fraudulent activity on the MP it is no longer safe to sell full sets here. I hope LL will be able to provide us with greater protection or recourse soon." Its not just about full sets.... Its about every reseller, big or small. It's about the $10L items as much as the $5000. Everyone should be protected, value is subjective. Everyone has the right to not be ripped off, regardless of the price or the item. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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