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Thanks Lucia for replying to the thread.

I am now aware of at least 12  14 18 gacha resellers who have been affected by this issue and after posting in some of the gacha groups I am becoming aware of more. We will see what response comes when SL merchants wakeup today,  most will be blissfully unaware that their hard earned gacha sets have basically been stolen from marketplace. 

I will continue to post in the groups and ask people to come forward for support and ideas for solutions but I trust @Grumpity Linden and/or @Reed Linden will please take a closer look? There are currently 449314  448882 gacha items alone that are at risk as well as Marketplace reputation. I understand quite a few sellers are unlisting their sets and rares out of concern.

Edited by StephanieBell
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Hi everyone!   I wanted to give you an update on what we’re working on.   The assessment process is not one that is typically handled by the Governance or Support teams for Second Life, however,

Hey folks! I just wanted to drop in a quick reminder that calling out specific people and accusing them of possible TOS violations is not appropriate for the forums. If you believe that someone i

Thank you so much Kristin Linden and Patch Linden, just some minutes ago my ticket was processed and the L $ was credited back to my account :-))))))) @ StephanieBell:   Also a big hug for you 🙂

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@Lucia Nightfire 

My apologies, I just now realized that what you posted was the video of the meeting rather than just a photo of it.

After watching that I feel it is apparent that @Grumpity Linden is not completely understanding the issue of why the No Gifting option would begin to help address the issue of theft from Marketplace. Nor am I confident that she recognises that sellers just lose their no copy items with no recourse or return and to add insult to injury sellers are still charged the 10% commission charge all through no fault of their own. 

As this type of decision apparently lies with 'Governance' please can you let me know how we can make contact with this branch of SL? Something must be done: Linden Labs can't just continue to allow our items to be stolen when in their care and not act.

 

@Reed Linden 

 

 

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16 minutes ago, StephanieBell said:

As this type of decision apparently lies with 'Governance' please can you let me know how we can make contact with this branch of SL?

Governance typically offers meetings monthly.

You can also file a ticket with support to get questions answered.

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15 hours ago, Samara Sharkfin said:

Those Gacha sales were i got L$ assessments were from Gacha machines at events or from creators in-world shops.

But the source of the sold MP item has nothing to do with the L$ assessment. LL takes the L$ back that was send to you because "obtained through an unauthorized source ".

The really fishy thing is that by searching about that i find out that all threads talk about gacha. :-/

So i was wondering if it happens more often lately.
(and a lot of more questions ..but hey :)

 

The reason I asked, is I was musing whether LL are also including in that scope where somebody resells (as they purchased from a third party versus the creator) a pirate version of a gacha item so the incoming funds are flagged if the original asset has been subject to a DMCA 3 sellers down the line.

 The fact you brought the items from the creators so they were legit rules out my theory so thanks for confirming.

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This is what I posted this morning throughout the gacha groups I belong to: 

I"ve recently been a victim of fraudulent linden purchases on my MP to the tune of 23K. I, like many others are stuck not only paying for these fraudulent purchases because Linden Labs has reversed the credits and charged them BACK to me....but they say they can not give me the original items back. I have unlisted my MP, you might think of doing that too w/your rares and full sets for the time being. Good luck and keep your MP safe. Marquisdesadejustine

Through the course of three days I have submitted a ticket, talked to billing and just now talked to the fraud department. The woman in the fraud department told me I agreed to this when I agreed to the TOS. I asked her to tell me what portion of the TOS she was referring to. She couldn't answer me. She could not recall the section verbatim.  

Soooo, I read the TOS...2x...this is what I found and I quote: "Linden Labs or its Payment Service Provider may halt, suspend, discontinue, or reverse any Lindex exchange transaction (whether proposed, pending or past) in cases of actual or suspected fraud, violations of other laws or regulations, or deliberate disruptions or interference with Second Life." Elsewhere in the TOS and I quote again: "Linden Lab determines that fraud or other illegal conduct is associated with the HOLDER'S account."

How am I the "HOLDER"? My lindens were purchased LEGALLY to spend on these gachas, to make these FULL SETS to place on the MP. At the very least, replace my items so I start from scratch. Why am I the victim? Why aren't you protecting the innocent like myself? Why are transferable items allowed to be "gifted"?.. they're transferable! Why are newbie avatars allowed to receive items or for that matter allowed to even purchase lindens without a "wait" period? How are people hacking into so many established accounts? Why am I out 23 THOUSAND LINDENS? Because you can't properly police your own business?

This is unacceptable. Sorry for the rant. 

Marquisdesadejustine

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I had those fraudulent payments also a few times (last time was about 5 days ago ~6k L$) and was able to track down what avatar bought the items and who received them. Sadly it's not possible to ban ppl on marketplace, but i banned those avatars on caspervend to buy stuff from me again. Most times the avatars that reiceved the stolen stuff never bought anything from me before, so it's not a loss to ban them from buying. I wish it would be possible to do that on marketplace too, so at least those avatars are not able to get stuff for free again if "someone" get hacked and they "accidentally" receive my stuff.

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2 minutes ago, Tonk Tomcat said:

I had those fraudulent payments also a few times (last time was about 5 days ago ~6k L$) and was able to track down what avatar bought the items and who received them. Sadly it's not possible to ban ppl on marketplace, but i banned those avatars on caspervend to buy stuff from me again. Most times the avatars that reiceved the stolen stuff never bought anything from me before, so it's not a loss to ban them from buying. I wish it would be possible to do that on marketplace too, so at least those avatars are not able to get stuff for free again if "someone" get hacked and they "accidentally" receive my stuff.

You can now ban on MP, just block someone and they can’t buy from you. 

I learned it on the forums.

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2 hours ago, MarquisdeSadeJustine said:

Soooo, I read the TOS...2x...this is what I found and I quote: "Linden Labs or its Payment Service Provider may halt, suspend, discontinue, or reverse any Lindex exchange transaction (whether proposed, pending or past) in cases of actual or suspected fraud, violations of other laws or regulations, or deliberate disruptions or interference with Second Life." Elsewhere in the TOS and I quote again: "Linden Lab determines that fraud or other illegal conduct is associated with the HOLDER'S account."

How am I the "HOLDER"?

The first quote refers specifically to the Linden Dollar Exchange, so that's probably not relevant. The second one though, is pretty literal and the bit they're enforcing in your case.

When someone's account gets stolen and that account has payment info on file, the thief can buy more lindens without consent from the owner, which is fraudulent.

The thief then spends that fraudulent money to buy your item, so you are now "associated" with the fraud because you have received ("are holding") fraudulent lindens and LL will take that away from you. The lindens you have bought aren't fraudulent, just the ones you received through sales. By the time the lindens are being taken away from you, the stolen account (the source of the fraud) is already under lock and key.

Edited by Wulfie Reanimator
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While the money lost is, of course, an issue my concern is that LL is allowing theft from Marketplace and actively showing no action in trying to resolve the problem. 

If I buy or receive an item on Marketplace, even if it has $0L value, it is recorded in my transaction history. If the item is gifted my marketplace shows who the item was gifted to. If fraud is experienced then LL's certainly could legitimately look within the account inventory to see if my lost no-copy  item is still there and return it to me. If the item is not there then records would show who it was transferred to and so on and so forth. So despite customer support telling me there is nothing they can do this is not the case, they are choosing NOT to do anything. 

Again, I request @Grumpity Linden to respond with how this matter can be resolved. Imagine you had a set of something you sent time and money collecting and then decided to sell it. A person bought it through PayPal or with a credit card and then it was found the account was hacked and the purchase fraudulent. Your loss (as is the person who's account was in this instance) would be protected by PayPal or the credit card company and your stolen funds eventually returned as the seller is not the one at fault. So in these many and obviously increasing instances the only people losing out are the LL Marketplace sellers of no copy (and therefore irreplaceable without purchasing them again if you can find them) items.  Linden Lab offers nothing to help us, recovers their money and to top it off they also still stick us with a 10% commission charge - all through no fault of our own.

I was told by LL support "I understand the concern, and unfortunately any time something is set up to accept funds (regardless of if it is a marketplace store, in-world vendor, or in-world tip jar) there is always the risk funds coming in may be fraudulent in nature. There is no way to prevent such from your end so long as you run a business": LL is running the business: vendors are paying them to act as the middleman and they are failing to protect our items while in their care.

In a follow up message I was told by customer support that there is nothing they can do, that basically there is no point in trying to contact Governance (despite the video with @Reed Linden and @Grumpity Linden stating that these matters need to go to Governance) as it is a fraud matter and even if I try to contact them they ( @Kristin Linden ) will just forward any message back to their department and they are washing their hands of the matter "we have already looked into this concern and done all we can". This issue runs across both. The video, and my own observation, supports that residents are buying items with fraudulent funds and gifting them to alt avi's. Something needs to be done. I am aware of at least 15 instances myself of this happening over the last couple of days. At the very least allow me as a vendor to choose if I want to take the risk of selling an item as a gift.

@Inara Pey@Guendoline Linden@Shrike Linden

Ticket - [#1474737]

Edited by StephanieBell
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Hi All! Unfortunately, we cannot comment on individual cases in the forums.  We're looking into the various issues discussed in this thread, but since there are several events in discussion, I want to be very careful to correctly address the separate concerns. 

I absolutely get that this policy is frustrating, and we've often talked about what could be done to make it less painful for the merchants who get swept up in fraudulent transactions through no fault of their own. 

Give me a bit of time to give you all a more thorough answer please. I'd hate to be an elephant in a chinashop in all of this.  

 

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2 hours ago, Grumpity Linden said:

Hi All! Unfortunately, we cannot comment on individual cases in the forums.  We're looking into the various issues discussed in this thread, but since there are several events in discussion, I want to be very careful to correctly address the separate concerns. 

I absolutely get that this policy is frustrating, and we've often talked about what could be done to make it less painful for the merchants who get swept up in fraudulent transactions through no fault of their own. 

Give me a bit of time to give you all a more thorough answer please. I'd hate to be an elephant in a chinashop in all of this.  

 

Until today I lost many complete sets, expensive retired rares etc. Removed balance from my account is more than 100k L$ in 2 years. In this week I lost 4 complete sets. I am not overthinking about the linden dollars, I just wanted my lost items back several times. Holded accounts might have or gave them to someone else. If they are lost in track, maybe a recovery for us would be lovely like you do inworld sims. I talked to a girl 1 year ago, she told me that 4000 US$ have spent from her credit cards. Those griefers are being too much for us, we can't deal with them. Maybe you better remove "adding credit cards" option. Remove "buying only transferable items as gift" option. Or maybe even remove all transferable items sales from MP, so good old days may return back. I am imagining about a "second life" without stolen content, gacha duplicators, fraud, griefers... It shouldn't be this hard. I believe that the best creators would create more for this world. Both gacha creators and players are being only desperate in these conditions.

Edited by OxfordLennox
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I appreciate all of the input on this topic. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't individual items (esp no copy items) have unique identifying numbers which should make them relatively easy to track down and return to their rightful owners, in this case, the MP merchant? This is a "walled garden" and I just assumed LL knows all, sees all, controls all. Am I wrong?

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I also was hit this week to the tune of around 7.5K  I am curious if it's just one party making a huge sweep and if LL have tracked down the culprits. This has happened before, a few years back and the items were eventually returned to me.... The plus.... they were worth a lot more then.

I also am keen to hear the outcomes. 

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Curious speculation:

What if the real fraud is that it's the owner of the account that does the purchase but then falsely claims to LL that their account was stolen in order to get their money back?

All that's needed is a proxy server. 

Edited by Wulfie Reanimator
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The biggest problem and it’s quite distressing is Linden labs has pass the buck to us to take care of their fraud, it’s completely unacceptable. If you’re going to reverse charges that I’m stuck paying, at least return my transferable items I lost; an 8f8 little treats full set, a nutmeg December eve full set, a DRD Vagabond  two full set with extras,  and a very expense retired Apple fall barbershop with the mystery rare. I want my 23K back or at the very least I want my full sets back. If these hackers are making new accounts to pass the transferables to ( this is what the fraud department told me when I called yesterday), they need to hold deleted accounts for a certain amount of time so that they can actually go back into the deleted account of the hacker and get our stuff. And yes transferable items should not be able to be gifted. They. are. transferable.

this is beyond distressing. 

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the most common phishing vector is a link in group chat to a thief website

Linden are no doubt thinking about this already. I just stick these here for awareness

what would be useful is a Group option to allow/disallow chat messages that contain a web link being sent from the server to the group members

[ ] Allow web links in chat

this option should be OFF by default. The group owner/officers would have to turn it ON

there are legit uses of website links to external websites. A store owner's own website, marketplace store, flicker, youtube, etc promoting a new product release. So they should be able to continue doing this by opting in to the capability

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Just a quick update before the weekend. We're reviewing our assessment process and what we can do to make it less painful for all the legitimate parties involved.  We all agree that the impact to the merchant is unfair and unwarranted in cases where they are also a victim of the fraudulent activity.

We obviously won't be able to make sweeping changes in a day, but we are working on doing better and making things right with the merchant in these situations.  

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My question is why has LL not at least implemented Two Factor Auth yet? This is real money and financial accounts being dealt with here, and in some cases, peoples livelihoods. 2FA would surely at least reduce the occurrence of phished accounts, thus reducing legitimate merchants from being stolen from. I have asked at meetings in the past and LL seems uninterested in doing so. What I don't understand is why.

If, and when, it is implemented, users should be strongly compelled to enable 2FA, especially when they add payment info to their account.

@Grumpity Linden @Oz Linden @Reed Linden @Simon Linden

Edited by Diamond Caudron
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On 1/31/2020 at 3:24 AM, MarquisdeSadeJustine said:

Soooo, I read the TOS...2x...this is what I found and I quote: "Linden Labs or its Payment Service Provider may halt, suspend, discontinue, or reverse any Lindex exchange transaction (whether proposed, pending or past) in cases of actual or suspected fraud, violations of other laws or regulations, or deliberate disruptions or interference with Second Life." Elsewhere in the TOS and I quote again: "Linden Lab determines that fraud or other illegal conduct is associated with the HOLDER'S account."

Thanks for this. Seems to cover reversing the payments, but I'm not seeing anything about forfeiting the items, esp no copy ones. If anyone can find that in the TOS,  post the relevant section(s) here. Please and thank you

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