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Do merchants have any recourse?


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Just now, Pamela Galli said:

DMCA does not apply to breach of EULA .

Can you link me please? Because this would make mine and every other FP product sellers EULA entirely irrelevant and we would have zero protection!

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5 minutes ago, Syn Anatine said:

Can you link me please? Because this would make mine and every other FP product sellers EULA entirely irrelevant and we would have zero protection!

The DMCA is about copyright infringement, which LL must legally enforce. No  one in SL has any EULA protection, since it is a licensing agreement between individuals and has nothing to do with copyright, which LL is under no legal obligation to enforce, and says in TOS that it will not involve themselves in disputes between residents. 

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4 hours ago, Blush Bravin said:

We are now having a Linden Home complete décor SALE!! All styles of Linden Home decorating is $2,000L complete. Don't waste all your time and Lindens trying to get that look you want for your home … we use the most current items with the best use of prims. Contact us today while we have a few booking appointments available. This sale save you thousands of L's!

This is a bit off-topic ... the customers of this clown are also being ripped off, in a way. For L$2000 they're getting a decorated Linden home, but it's for a single use. If the owner decides to change homes or decor, all the owner can do is return the items. I wouldn't want to pay L$2000 for that; I could buy a lot of stuff myself for that money and get to keep it.

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It's one of those things that technically isn't against the rules, but is on the dubious side. Copy permissions weren't really intended so that one person could place copies of an item for everyone else.

However, this has been going on since before Linden homes, and it's never really taken off in a big way. Most people want their own copies of things. You'd lose far more money from things like selling everything as no copy. Ultimately, regular customers outnumber people like this by a huge amount, so it's better to make decisions based on what works for those regular customers.

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13 minutes ago, Parhelion Palou said:

This is a bit off-topic ... the customers of this clown are also being ripped off, in a way. For L$2000 they're getting a decorated Linden home, but it's for a single use. If the owner decides to change homes or decor, all the owner can do is return the items. I wouldn't want to pay L$2000 for that; I could buy a lot of stuff myself for that money and get to keep it.

Experienced users would be aware of that, but the person is probably counting on the offer being taken up by new users that might not be aware of those nuances and wouldn't realize they were being taken advantage of.    There probably will also be a segment who just don't like to decorate, don't buy furnishings, and so spending the L$2000 seems like a good deal for them, because they probably aren't going to want to move things around, redecorate, etc.

I might be kind of strange - if I find that my alt keeps wanting to use some home & garden item or house I have often enough, I just have her go and buy her own copy.

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1 minute ago, moirakathleen said:

I might be kind of strange - if I find that my alt keeps wanting to use some home & garden item or house I have often enough, I just have her go and buy her own copy.

Not that strange; my newer alts have some of their own things. It saves logging my main on in order to rez stuff for them.

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I had someone come do some landscaping for me once.  I had never had that done before and didn't know what was typical.  When she was done, I was then expecting her to sell all the items to me, but she said that typically the landscaper did not do that - transfer ownership of the items to the client.  I then asked "Well, what if I want to move things around a bit?".  She replied "No worries, just contact me".  I did not like that option at all - I'm a total control freak and don't want to have to rely on someone else to come move some items around.  Additionally, I had to leave her in my land group so that the items did not auto-return and I sure as heck didn't like that either.   Ultimately I left things as they were for a short bit until I had managed to either buy the same items or replacement items. 

I didn't realize until later that she was using copy/no-transfer items, which is why she couldn't sell them to me.  To this day, I still never knew if that was actually normal for landscapers or not.

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10 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

I didn't realize until later that she was using copy/no-transfer items, which is why she couldn't sell them to me.  To this day, I still never knew if that was actually normal for landscapers or not.

It's not. (Yes, I know you know by now, the same thing LOL)

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I would guess that merchants indeed have no recourse against this kind of thing - which is not because the landscaper is doing nothing wrong, it's that the "wronged party" isn't the merchant. It's the landscapers customer. They are being sold a shoddy service, performed with materials not fit for the purpose.

You sell a copy perm item you're granting a license to rez as many copies as they like, wherever the land permissions let them do it. Whether that's their land or somebody else's.

But the landscaper executing a project with items that cannot be transferred to the landowner most definitely IS doing something wrong. If all they are selling is a design service and not the items to execute that design then they should not falsely advertise otherwise. If they then put their items out according to the design, those are still THEIRS even though they may be leaving them around for others to use, with all the downsides LittleMe mentioned above - What they are actually selling to their customer is still only the design, not the build. The DMCA may not be involved but LL's rules about deceptive advertising and fake products on the marketplace sure are!

A landscaper putting out their own items to demo the design is one thing. But when the landscaper walks away they should be leaving behind items owned by the landowner. If they can;t transfer the items used in the demo, then they should either be leaving the landowner with a precise shopping list and parameters to rez each item or using the "purchase as a gift" option on the marketplace to get them into the landowners hands and be temporarily granted edit perms to the landowners objects in order to place them properly.

If I were selling landscape or decorative items and I found them being used the way that has been described here I would be peeved. I'd be tempted to blacklist the designer, report their listings for false advertising and make my products available to their customers at a substantial discount so they could make good the poor work the landscaper had performed. And I'd say so up front in MY ads too!

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1 hour ago, Da5id Weatherwax said:

it's that the "wronged party" isn't the merchant. It's the landscapers customer

Often I've needed to turn down landscaping jobs and so advised my potential customer to make sure they get a clear agreement/contract when searching for another landscaper to hire.  Parameters should be spelled out clearly in a spec sheet before work begins, and that includes transference (or not) of the content.
There's most likely a catch if a designer is offering super cheap prices.  If it's too good to be true......

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I am not really sure I understand the problem in this one...are we saying that decor items with copy permissions should have limited use ? sort of like owning software and only using it on one pc etc.

If I buy hedges for instance, and used them on my sim, in my home, and then used those same hedges to decorate an event I was running, and happened to rez a hedge at a friends studio because they wanted to look like they were in a garden not 3000 metres in the sky in a box, this is somehow taking from the seller of the hedges? 

Or is this only because they are making money off of the items by rezzing them? because really all this looked like to me was a rezzed Style card, like how some shape makers would charge people upwards of more than 1000L's to give them a shape that was no mod, and then list the items used in the ad, the items were then bought sure but it was profitting off of the idea of pointing people towards something they could just go looking for.

The cost associated is the time it takes to find all the items, to place them in a stylish manner etc, I would assume that the intent in the end is that the customer does consider going and buying the pieces themselves, but if they didn't buy those, they are now familiar with a store they may have not been otherwise.

I have used items Whimsy has had rezzed out, full decorated spaces, so many items to credit but I have in my post of course, and she tends to build vignettes and then get bored and not photograph them herself so I am saving their beauty :)  but by me doing so, someone may have bought the items, liked what they have seen.

I also had a sim for years where the stores were provided, they were my builds though, but does that make that wrong too, if someone sells a commercial build is the buyer not allowed to use it in an event, booths, rental stores etc.

So again is it just because they are charging for I guess one would say hiring of your items. Maybe that is something you could offer yourself set up some scripted devices that allow for a a week, month or so on use of the items and then if they want them longer they buy them, like a timed demo for clothing. Even in RL the creator of decor, furniture does not get paid each time someone buys an item and then uses it in such a way, but I guess unlike SL while it is being hired out in one location it is not also in 400 others.

I could go around and around on this one, bit of a mind bender before bed :D

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30 minutes ago, Sasy Scarborough said:

I am not really sure I understand the problem in this one...are we saying that decor items with copy permissions should have limited use ? sort of like owning software and only using it on one pc etc.

If I buy hedges for instance, and used them on my sim, in my home, and then used those same hedges to decorate an event I was running, and happened to rez a hedge at a friends studio because they wanted to look like they were in a garden not 3000 metres in the sky in a box, this is somehow taking from the seller of the hedges? 

Or is this only because they are making money off of the items by rezzing them? because really all this looked like to me was a rezzed Style card, like how some shape makers would charge people upwards of more than 1000L's to give them a shape that was no mod, and then list the items used in the ad, the items were then bought sure but it was profitting off of the idea of pointing people towards something they could just go looking for.

The cost associated is the time it takes to find all the items, to place them in a stylish manner etc, I would assume that the intent in the end is that the customer does consider going and buying the pieces themselves, but if they didn't buy those, they are now familiar with a store they may have not been otherwise.

I have used items Whimsy has had rezzed out, full decorated spaces, so many items to credit but I have in my post of course, and she tends to build vignettes and then get bored and not photograph them herself so I am saving their beauty :)  but by me doing so, someone may have bought the items, liked what they have seen.

I also had a sim for years where the stores were provided, they were my builds though, but does that make that wrong too, if someone sells a commercial build is the buyer not allowed to use it in an event, booths, rental stores etc.

So again is it just because they are charging for I guess one would say hiring of your items. Maybe that is something you could offer yourself set up some scripted devices that allow for a a week, month or so on use of the items and then if they want them longer they buy them, like a timed demo for clothing. Even in RL the creator of decor, furniture does not get paid each time someone buys an item and then uses it in such a way, but I guess unlike SL while it is being hired out in one location it is not also in 400 others.

I could go around and around on this one, bit of a mind bender before bed :D

In this case, I'd say a combo of things.  These aren't items that someone has to 'place in a stylish manner'.  They are house mods - walls and such to divide a large area into multiple rooms - along with a HUD to provide lots of textures, and they are specific to each house/houseboat model.  One of them adds walls in an upstairs area to provide a bath area and a closet.  The HUD allows for multiple tile options in the bath area.  Stuff like that.  So someone is buying the item and then offering to customize someone's house, using these copy items that they bought - and charging something like L$2000 for the service.  It will likely only catch new folks because they won't know right up front that they may not be able to use the HUD or modify the item directly without calling on the person that placed it there, or at the very least having to leave a stranger in their group to possibly allow them to modify/use the item.

 

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Some people really hate placing things inworld and are happy to pay someone to do it for them. I assume these would be the clientele for the business in question.  

I just never have a problem with anyone legally selling anything (eg even no mod things) as long as they are clear about what it is so the buyer can make an informed decision. 

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32 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

Some people really hate placing things inworld and are happy to pay someone to do it for them. I assume these would be the clientele for the business in question.  

I just never have a problem with anyone legally selling anything (eg even no mod things) as long as they are clear about what it is so the buyer can make an informed decision. 

Offering that service and being paid for it is fine. And you do it the right way by being temporarily granted edit perms on the landowner's items or by placing items that can be transferred to the landowner after they are placed.  Doing it with items that remain "yours" after the project is complete and being paid for leaving them there may be technically ok but it sure isn't ethical and if it's not made clear up front that it is what you are doing - that you are, in fact, NOT selling the items, just the decorating work - is ripping off your customers, especially if they are not particularly experienced and may not be aware how you're scamming them.

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4 minutes ago, Da5id Weatherwax said:

Offering that service and being paid for it is fine. And you do it the right way by being temporarily granted edit perms on the landowner's items or by placing items that can be transferred to the landowner after they are placed.  Doing it with items that remain "yours" after the project is complete and being paid for leaving them there may be technically ok but it sure isn't ethical and if it's not made clear up front that it is what you are doing - that you are, in fact, NOT selling the items, just the decorating work - is ripping off your customers, especially if they are not particularly experienced and may not be aware how you're scamming them.

I explicitly stated that sellers should make clear what they are selling. Buyers can decide if that’s what they want to buy.

 

PS That goes for no mod things, no copy things, bad LOD things, pre-mesh things, and ugly things. As long as the buyer knows what he is getting, no scam involved.

Edited by Pamela Galli
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12 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

In this case, I'd say a combo of things.  These aren't items that someone has to 'place in a stylish manner'.  They are house mods - walls and such to divide a large area into multiple rooms - along with a HUD to provide lots of textures, and they are specific to each house/houseboat model.  One of them adds walls in an upstairs area to provide a bath area and a closet.  The HUD allows for multiple tile options in the bath area.  Stuff like that.  So someone is buying the item and then offering to customize someone's house, using these copy items that they bought - and charging something like L$2000 for the service.  It will likely only catch new folks because they won't know right up front that they may not be able to use the HUD or modify the item directly without calling on the person that placed it there, or at the very least having to leave a stranger in their group to possibly allow them to modify/use the item.

 

I was not sure by the time it got to me if we were still just focusing on Blush's specific items or all items, that is why I was going around and around on it. A service fee is as such, and there have been many stylists over the years for landscaping, sim projects, and people themselves as many mentioned. People can be mislead but I do not always think that the people offering the service ever really think that is the case going in, they genuinely are finding their niche in SL, they cannot create so they show others how to shop, style, edit etc. If people did not get to create their own businesses in service in Second Life I would not have 13 years under my belt, but I do definitely agree some can be fooled, or forget, which is often the case. I can see someone six months down the track deciding they want a new living room and realising that the parts that make up their current one did not just go back to inventory and start screaming about having been conned. I would also hope that in the case of someone laying these things down that they would provide some sort of listing with all names, sold by information so that in the event of a bad restart etc the items could be repurchased if they just wanted to do that themselves in future and the items were no longer rezzed. I liken this whole idea to those that prepare a house for selling, the sellers hire a company to come in and makeover the home, and when it is sold they pick it all up again, but as mentioned previously they can only use that one adorable cushion in one home at a time, unlike SL.

We want to do all the fun RL things here, but at the same time we love the ability to have unlimited possibilities, as those too work in the creators favour, this is one of those other side situations, while a customer can have unlimited copies to rez, the creator also has unlimited copies to sell, imagine if every time someone wanted their divider, or pink dress etc the creator had to rez a new version package it up and sell it forward. or you could only create ten copies of something at a time, sell them create the next ten ( Lindens do not read this)

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The whole sim building business depends on region owners paying people with a ready library of stuff to come and place it on their land.

This is just how that has always worked, especially for themed RP regions, although I've not heard of it being offered for such small plots that are entirely personal use before.

 

L$2000 is .. what, $8 US on a good day.. say it takes someone an hour to decorate a house .. that's not really a bad deal just for their time and as long as it was clear there is no transfer / inclusion of purchase rights.

 

It might not be what the creator of the objects intended, and might go against their bolt-on EULA, but the lab wont get involved, and an actual lawyer will charge orders of magnitude more than your total losses informing you it's a waste of time. Making a false DMCA claim against a would-be decorator would be worth real money to them.

Which in turn comes back to .. if your EULA is knowingly unenforceable and basically worthless, why even bother with it.

Edited by CoffeeDujour
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2 hours ago, CoffeeDujour said:

L$2000 is .. what, $8 US on a good day.. say it takes someone an hour to decorate a house .. that's not really a bad deal just for their time and as long as it was clear there is no transfer / inclusion of purchase rights.

Not far off the US  minimum wage for that hour, indeed.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if we actually could make this close to RL rates for our SL time. But, let's face it, nobody does. Not scripters, not mesh artists, not texture artists, not animators, not entertainers or performers. If we tried charging anything close to "real" costs we'd never sell anything, never get booked to perform. We'd love to. We don't. None of us do. Even a really skilled voice actress working as a SL hooker would be hard pressed to manage it, although the cynic in me suggests she might get closer than anyone else.

 

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38 minutes ago, Da5id Weatherwax said:

Not far off the US  minimum wage for that hour, indeed.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if we actually could make this close to RL rates for our SL time. But, let's face it, nobody does. Not scripters, not mesh artists, not texture artists, not animators, not entertainers or performers. If we tried charging anything close to "real" costs we'd never sell anything, never get booked to perform. We'd love to. We don't. None of us do. Even a really skilled voice actress working as a SL hooker would be hard pressed to manage it, although the cynic in me suggests she might get closer than anyone else.

 

That is quite a blanket statement you are making there. It's also wrong.

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One mitigation solution I can think if is to keep that in mind when you code the object's settings/menus and the like and make sure that only the owner of the object gets access to some of the administrative functions and that there is no way to grant those to anyone else.

This won't prevent them to do what they are doing (nor should you prevent it because we don't need a copybot 2.0 wave of obnoxious scripts), but it does mean that to access most important features you have to be the owner.

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While I can understand the frustration, this isn't a whole lot different from a landlord offering a fully furnished rental unit and that is extremely common. Most interior designers will have the client purchase the items directly from the creator and then move them into place for the client. If you really want to protect yourself, sell your product with no copy permissions, but I'd wager that would do more harm then good.

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On 4/25/2019 at 12:00 PM, Blush Bravin said:

The issue is that you're losing sales from those who might buy the product had this person not rezzed it in their home for them to use as long as they like. 

I would report the person but I don't see how it's breaking TOS so don't see how we have any recourse short of banning the person from buying anymore products from us.

Well, surely someone will eventually want to redecorate or move stuff around. Can't exactly do that with some strangers junk unless this person is just giving mod rights to hundreds of people.

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