Skin vs Mesh Skin?

[Aerdrie Fabre]

Hi all - 2006 account here, so I'm very much stuck in the classic AV with my old school skin.  I'm okay with this.  It's been a while since I've been in SL, but have been back in the last few days discovering Magika hair, and have also introduced a friend to SL.  Because classic avatars aren't a thing for newbies anymore, she ended up with a mesh starter avatar and in general we've been having a nightmare looking for skins.  

We first went to LAQ skins and tried a demo, but her skin didn't actually change.  Our best guess is there's some sort of mesh magic she wasn't invoking.  So we bought a skin to see if it had extra instructions or something called an omega applier, and that didn't change anything either.  These are what I'm deeming "Mesh Skins" and well...yeah.

Then I saw in a blog of someone giving instructions on adjusting mesh bodies, that the skin she was using was from AIMI.  We went last night and these made more sense to me and is what we're actually looking for.  

So firstly, can someone correct my terminology if I've messed it up since I feel like an old noob, and secondly, what are your top ranked skin shops (AIMI style NOT mesh style)?

Thanks so much!!

FWIW: The one thread I'm going to look at is and I'm hoping it's the system layer skins that they're selling...

 

Edited April 25, 2019 by Aerdrie Fabre

[Janet Voxel]

I thought the new avatars were system avatars?

[Buttacwup Float]

@janetosilio They actually have a collection of both. 

On the topic of system skins, I don't see many of the stores i look at offering them directly anymore. Most designers follow the money and the people that buy skins typically also have moved on to mesh bodies. That said Izzie's still has her system skins out and they are wonderful. I think Pink Fuel does as well. I think the better terminology would be System Skins and Applier Skins. Applier being anything that applies to a mesh body or body part.

[Aerdrie Fabre]

21 minutes ago, seanabrady said:

@janetosilio They actually have a collection of both. 

On the topic of system skins, I don't see many of the stores i look at offering them directly anymore. Most designers follow the money and the people that buy skins typically also have moved on to mesh bodies. That said Izzie's still has her system skins out and they are wonderful. I think Pink Fuel does as well. I think the better terminology would be System Skins and Applier Skins. Applier being anything that applies to a mesh body or body part.

I think what we had our friend do (because we're blind leading the blind) was adjust her shape (Edit Appearance) of her starter av and look for system skins that worked with that.  AIMI skins just weren't her jam.  The terminology you've presented is very helpful - thank you! 

[Buttacwup Float]

Welcome. Feel free to shout if you need help finding skins. I can always use another excuse to store hop!

[Skell Dagger]

What you're looking at here are two different types of skin:

• System skins = what you're familiar with on your original avatar. These will only work on classic or system avatars that don't comprise an additional bunch of mesh body and head sections placed over the original avatar with alpha layers (the successor to invisiprims) hiding that original avatar. System skins are simply worn and they show immediately on your avatar.
• Applier skins = what you're calling 'mesh skins'. These will only work on mesh bodies and heads, and specifically only on the mesh bodies and heads that they are created for (with the exception of Omega appliers). I'll get into the whole 'applier thing' in more detail shortly. Applier skins come in HUDs that you have to wear, then click to apply the skin to your mesh body parts.

You mentioned that your friend ended up with a 'mesh starter avatar'. Linden Lab did release one set of all-mesh starter avatars several years ago, but these are no longer available during the sign-up process (although they can still be found if you dig through your inventory's Library folder, and may also be available through the Avatar toolbar button/floater). These avatars are all mesh, from head and body to clothing. The later avatars (including those currently available at signup) are system/classic avatars with the addition of mesh clothing.

The important thing to remember is that - if your friend has/had one of those Linden Lab-created all-mesh starter avatars (including a mesh body and head) - there are no skins (either classic or applier) that will work on them. They are incredibly limited and cannot be customised. She would need to remove the mesh body parts and the alpha layer, and look for system skins (as you appear to be guiding her to do). Either that, or she can demo third-party mesh heads and mesh body parts, which is where appliers will work.

So, onto that 'applier thing' and to simplify as much as I can:

An applier skin will usually come in two parts: one applier for a mesh head and one for a mesh body. This is because most people like to mix and match, and some of the mesh body/head stores specialise in one or the other and not both. For example: Catwa and Lelutka only make mesh heads; they don't make mesh bodies. But Maitreya only makes a mesh body and no mesh heads.

In other words: someone might wear a Catwa head and a Maitreya body, so - to buy a skin that will work on both - they will need: a Catwa-compatible head applier and a Maitreya-compatible body applier, both in the same skintone from the same store.

However, there are also Omega appliers. These are a kind of cross-brand applier that will work on any mesh head or body as long as you have the correct Omega Relay or Installer HUD. To use our example above: if you wanted to wear an Omega skin on a Catwa head and Maitreya body you would need to have (and be wearing) the Omega Relay HUDs for both Catwa and Maitreya while you apply the Omega skin. BUT! That same Omega skin will also work on, say, a Lelutka head and Belleza body, as long as you have (and are wearing/have installed) the Omega HUDs for Lelutka and Belleza.

(I will mention, though, that since different head brands use different UV mapping, you will often find Omega head appliers listed as being 'based on' a certain head brand. This means that the head applier will fit perfectly on that brand of head, but - while it may look just fine on another brand of head - certain small details might be slightly 'off'. For example: the lip line might sit a little bit outside or inside the 3D lip line on the other head brand's mesh. With body appliers this is a bit less of an issue, so Omega is more frequently used for those when it comes to skins.)

Most skin stores that sell appliers tend to have a single set of body appliers (for different mesh body brands) and their new releases comprise just the head appliers. Occasionally they will update their body appliers with new versions, and this can cause a bit of confusion if the necks of the head appliers (which is where the head and body appliers will meet) aren't updated to match them.

Avatar customisation has become a bit of a convoluted minefield in the past few years, and I don't envy anyone coming in as a newbie to SL these days. But in these forums, and in the many groups inworld, you'll find people who are willing to help and to explain things, often in infinitesimal detail if that's what you need. So don't worry that you might be asking 'obvious' or 'noobish' questions

[Aerdrie Fabre]

1 hour ago, Skell Dagger said:

What you're looking at here are two different types of skin:

• System skins = what you're familiar with on your original avatar. These will only work on classic or system avatars that don't comprise an additional bunch of mesh body and head sections placed over the original avatar with alpha layers (the successor to invisiprims) hiding that original avatar. System skins are simply worn and they show immediately on your avatar.
• Applier skins = what you're calling 'mesh skins'. These will only work on mesh bodies and heads, and specifically only on the mesh bodies and heads that they are created for (with the exception of Omega appliers). I'll get into the whole 'applier thing' in more detail shortly. Applier skins come in HUDs that you have to wear, then click to apply the skin to your mesh body parts.

You mentioned that your friend ended up with a 'mesh starter avatar'. Linden Lab did release one set of all-mesh starter avatars several years ago, but these are no longer available during the sign-up process (although they can still be found if you dig through your inventory's Library folder, and may also be available through the Avatar toolbar button/floater). These avatars are all mesh, from head and body to clothing. The later avatars (including those currently available at signup) are system/classic avatars with the addition of mesh clothing.

Thanks so much for your minitutorial Skell - I've been reading through the forums all day and of course you're right - my friend got a classic avatar with mesh clothing.  It made sense therefore that the AIMI classic skins worked on her shape. 

Just a couple of questions:

• To continue wrapping my head around this, no pun intended.  If I buy a Catwa head - will I receive a Catwa head applier when I buy the head, or do I need to buy the head-applier separately?  Likewise with Omega appliers, is this available at some central Omega store, or will Catwa have an Omega applier I can buy somewhere in the store?
• And in one of the threads I was reading: 

The individuals were mentioning towards the end that LAQ was selling System Skins with Mesh Appliers.  I'm wondering if it's okay that I'm confused by this mashup or if it's another way to apply a skin to a mesh even though it's a system skin and not an applier skin.  

Thanks so much for the time put into your answers!

[Skell Dagger]

45 minutes ago, Aerdrie Fabre said:

To continue wrapping my head around this, no pun intended.  If I buy a Catwa head - will I receive a Catwa head applier when I buy the head, or do I need to buy the head-applier separately?

Caveat for what follows: I'm a CSR for Catwa, and thus it's a head brand that I'm most familiar with. However - when giving advice to people regarding upgrades to mesh - I won't 'shill' for that brand, though I work for it, love what I can do with it, and use it almost exclusively myself. I'm a firm believer in people making their own choices, and in not pushing my personal favourites onto them. Therefore I will always suggest that people should demo lots of heads and bodies and skins from lots of different designers. Find the items that work for you, which may not necessarily be 'the best' by someone else's definition, or 'the most popular' by market definitions.

Now that's out of the way...

Most mesh heads come with a HUD that contains a set of default skins. Usually these match to body appliers from other stores. For example: the default head appliers in Catwa's (female) HUDs match to body appliers from The Skinnery. (There is also a free group gift HUD in the store containing more skins.) This is also the case with other brands, although I'm less familiar with those. Example: I think the default head appliers in Lelutka (female) heads match to Glam Affair body appliers (and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong there!)

However, you're not limited to those default skins in mesh head HUDs, as there are hundreds of skin stores out there that create appliers. It's very important to take your time trying lots of demos, both heads and bodies in combination with skin appliers. Be aware, too, that there are different types of mesh head, from static ones that you can only change by stretching (and adding appliers) to Bento ones that you can customise not only by means of appliers but you can also use the system shape sliders to change them.

45 minutes ago, Aerdrie Fabre said:

Likewise with Omega appliers, is this available at some central Omega store, or will Catwa have an Omega applier I can buy somewhere in the store?

Most mesh head and body brands will have the relevant Omega relay/installer for their brand in their store - usually close to the item itself - but yes there is also an inworld Omega store where you can get redeliveries and pick up any HUDs that you may need. (Omega is also on Marketplace, but the HUDs are much cheaper to buy inworld, especially if you're in the Omega group.)

45 minutes ago, Aerdrie Fabre said:

The individuals were mentioning towards the end that LAQ was selling System Skins with Mesh Appliers.  I'm wondering if it's okay that I'm confused by this mashup or if it's another way to apply a skin to a mesh even though it's a system skin and not an applier skin. 

What those individuals mean (I didn't read the thread) is that LAQ are selling system skins as well as mesh appliers. Many people - especially those who have been in SL for a long time and grown fond of their system head - will make the jump to a mesh body first of all. They may take a lot longer to get a mesh head (or they may never get one). Stores such as those mentioned will allow you to buy a system skin (which will work on a system head) and matching body appliers (which will work on a mesh body).

However, there is also an upcoming new feature that Linden Lab are developing: Bakes on Mesh (BoM for short). It's still in beta, but the basic principle of it is that it will allow people to wear system skins and clothing, and that will 'bake' into a layer that will automatically apply to a mesh body. A very few creators - in anticipation of this - are beginning to include sub-folders with their products (E.g. makeup) that are special layers optimised for when BoM goes live.

A lot of people are putting faith in this allowing them to wear all of their old system stuff, but having tried early betas of it there is no guarantee that everything will look as good as one might think. For one thing, old system layers (including skins) are 512px resolution, and mesh appliers are 1024px, so there might be some fuzziness of fine lines in things like tattoos, etc. (You can see that in the body tattoos if you click to enlarge my photo, here.) And - just as Omega appliers 'based on' certain mesh heads might not work 100% on other brands of head - so old system skins etc might not map perfectly to mesh heads.

But many of us are looking forward to Bakes on Mesh, as it should eliminate some of the more annoying issues that can happen with mesh appliers. (The good old alpha sorting glitch has never gone away, but BoM should rid us of that.) Don't hold your breath for it, though. It's been in the works for quite some time, and "soon" is all we've heard every time we've asked There's a whole section for BoM in the Creation sub-forum, here.

Back to 'meshing-up' an avatar: my advice would be "demo the hell out of everything!" Take your time and pick up lots of demos (they should always be free, or at most a low price such as L$1) of mesh heads, body parts, and skin appliers. Make notes, take screenshots, and try everything out. 'Going mesh' isn't cheap, so it's good advice to figure out your favourites. Don't be like a guy I helped out a while back, who had just bought (at full price and without demoing!) one mesh body and head after another, and had already spent over $100USD without finding something he liked and could work with. (And yes, I pretty much begged him not to buy anything else without demoing it first!)

Edited April 25, 2019 by Skell Dagger

[Aerdrie Fabre]

13 minutes ago, Skell Dagger said:

Most mesh heads come with a HUD that contains a set of default skins. Usually these match to body appliers from other stores. For example: the default head appliers in Catwa's (female) HUDs match to body appliers from The Skinnery. (There is also a free group gift HUD in the store containing more skins.) This is also the case with other brands, although I'm less familiar with those. Example: I think the default head appliers in Lelutka (female) heads match to Glam Affair body appliers (and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong there!)

However, you're not limited to those default skins in mesh head HUDs, as there are hundreds of skin stores out there that create appliers. It's very important to take your time trying lots of demos, both heads and bodies in combination with skin appliers. Be aware, too, that there are different types of mesh head, from static ones that you can only change by stretching (and adding appliers) to Bento ones that you can customise not only by means of appliers but you can also use the system shape sliders to change them.

Hehe thanks for your CSR qualifier  .  I did wonder how all of the head appliers could account for the skin tones of all of the body appliers, and vice versa, and now I see that it's not universal, which logistically makes sense.  Has someone made a list of universally known pairings of head/body matches?

You mention Bento heads. I believe I would be more drawn to these to try to keep my custom look that I've had for these 13 years (if I decided to go mesh instead of stay with my system head).  Is Bento something that Catwa or other head appliers incorporate into their heads, or is Bento another company?  And on that same note, for heads that aren't Bento - is it essentially like buying that head shape, and not just the skin they're wearing?  So if I bought a (made up) Lelutka Jenny head, and my friend bought a Lelutka Jenny head as well, we'd have the same face, but potentially different skins via the Lelutka head HUD?

I'm sure I'll think of other tiny nuances to pick at your brain about....heh

[Skell Dagger]

15 minutes ago, Aerdrie Fabre said:

Is Bento something that Catwa or other head appliers incorporate into their heads, or is Bento another company?

Bento isn't a brand; it's the name for an update that Linden Lab put out a few years back that added more bones to the avatar skeleton. It allows us to have (among other things) realistic moving wings, to have our (Bento-rigged) hands animate (and have any Bento-rigged rings/gloves/etc move with them - very brief example animation here), to have our faces animate (if using a Bento head; example video here), and to use the underlying system shape sliders to adjust Bento-rigged heads.

Think of 'rigging' as a mesh item being 'pinned' to you at certain points, and you can adjust the position of those pins. Where, before - if you wanted to wear thigh-high boots - you would need to wear them in three sections (foot, shin, and thigh) that would 'break' whenever you bent your knees and ankles to walk, you can now wear a single boot that will flex and move with your knees and ankles. You can learn more about Bento here.

So yes, mesh head brands do have both Bento-rigged and non-Bento heads. Bento rigged heads usually (except in the case of a couple of lesser-known brands, such as Utilizator) cost a great deal more than non-Bento. The average price for a 'big name' Bento head (depending on brand and how they're sold; some brands offer heads and HUDs separately and some offer both together) is roughly L$5,000. These heads usually contain motion capture animations, as well.  For a non-Bento head, you're looking at approximately L$500 to L$900.

19 minutes ago, Aerdrie Fabre said:

And on that same note, for heads that aren't Bento - is it essentially like buying that head shape, and not just the skin they're wearing?  So if I bought a (made up) Lelutka Jenny head, and my friend bought a Lelutka Jenny head as well, we'd have the same face, but potentially different skins via the Lelutka head HUD?

That's a loose summation of a non-Bento head, yes. But you're not limited just to (in your hypothetical example) using different skins. You can apply makeup etc as well, so you're not going to look like an exact clone of someone else wearing the same non-Bento head. The face shape is the same (albeit you can stretch the head in any direction to elongate or squash it, for example) but the customisation options don't just stop at skins.

29 minutes ago, Aerdrie Fabre said:

Has someone made a list of universally known pairings of head/body matches?

Given the number of creators in SL that would be a massive undertaking if you wanted it done for skins! However, most mesh heads from the major brands should fit perfectly well with most major brand mesh bodies, if you wanted to know what fits with what.

A small additional note about Bento heads: each one starts out shaped a certain way (talking about the 3D shape of the mesh here, not the actual system shape). For example: some may start out with a square jaw; others with a pointed jaw. Most of the time you can only work within certain parameters of that starting mesh shape. If you want to edit your head to have a pointed jaw, you won't be able to do that with a mesh head whose 3D shape starts out with a very square jaw. This is why demoing is important: to find the heads that show promise for the eventual shape you want to achieve.

Be aware, too, that - while you won't be able to replicate your system face exactly - it might be possible to replicate it close enough that it will pass your own critical inspection. Just how close you'll be able to get depends on a number of factors, not least of which is what your system head actually looks like. If you have specific features that cannot be replicated by a mesh head, then you may get close but not quite close enough for your liking. Only you can decide whether that's worth the work, but it is worth a try. Don't forget that - just as with system skins - the right skin applier (and any accompanying additional appliers, such as makeup, freckles, age lines, etc) can alter a mesh head, to the point where 'almost-but-not-quite' becomes 'well damn that's close enough for me!'

[Roxy Couturier]

I thought I'd throw in two cents here.

Lumae Skins includes system skins as well as appliers. Right now she's re-branding, so all her older mesh era skins are on sale. Those older skins have some pretty thorough coverage for bodies and heads brand-wise. She also has a current group gift that's got the huds and system skins.

For example the head HUD includes appliers for Catwa, Lelutka, Genus, and Omega (plus more i cant recall atm). and the body has Maitreya, Bellaza, SLink and Omega appliers. The gift can help as it will apply readily to those bodies and heads without having to purchase an omega relay until you've made a decision on what you're going to buy. You can see the skin as it will look without 'demo' written all over it. And, while the gift skin has make-up already, her regular skins are bare, that is, no make-up, though she does have some special skins with make-up.

[Aerdrie Fabre]

8 hours ago, Roxy Couturier said:

I thought I'd throw in two cents here.

Lumae Skins includes system skins as well as appliers. Right now she's re-branding, so all her older mesh era skins are on sale. Those older skins have some pretty thorough coverage for bodies and heads brand-wise. She also has a current group gift that's got the huds and system skins.

For example the head HUD includes appliers for Catwa, Lelutka, Genus, and Omega (plus more i cant recall atm). and the body has Maitreya, Bellaza, SLink and Omega appliers. The gift can help as it will apply readily to those bodies and heads without having to purchase an omega relay until you've made a decision on what you're going to buy. You can see the skin as it will look without 'demo' written all over it. And, while the gift skin has make-up already, her regular skins are bare, that is, no make-up, though she does have some special skins with make-up.

Ah very useful!  I had seen somewhere on the forums about Lumae having all of the major appliers available.  I think we should likely start there first as we run around checking out the demos.  Thanks for that tip!

And thanks again @Skell Dagger for the explanations!  It's making my searches on the marketplace make a bit more sense!

[Scylla Rhiadra]

OMG Skell. You are an absolute saint.

Whatever we're paying you isn't enough.

[Conifer Dada]

I joined in 2006 and still have a system avatar and am happy that way.  Although mesh does offer better detailing, with a good skin and sensible shape system avatars can still look good.  System clothing is still good for tight-fitting items though obviously mesh is better for loose or baggy items.  

A week or two ago two things occurred on the same day that play nicely against each-other.  I was exploring clubs and I landed at a club that had a sign saying 'mesh avatars only'.  I went on to another venue where someone said I looked very realistic (I wasn't wearing much at the time!) and wanted to know what mesh I was using.  My first thought was she was being sarcastic but she wasn't.  

[Aerdrie Fabre]

We're currently working on heads and bodies - and I noticed that Logo heads use the same wear point for their head alpha as Maitreya does for their body alpha - so they can't overlap...any suggestions as to what we can do to remedy that?

EDIT:

Sorry - as expected some stores have full body alphas which is what was needed.  Logo is not one of them (not in their head section anyway)

LAQ's full body alpha doesn't alpha the eyes...Catwa's does!

Edited May 5, 2019 by Aerdrie Fabre

[Skell Dagger]

Glad you've figured it out. If you're wearing both a mesh head and a mesh body you only need one single full-body alpha. Two alphas is not recommended, because there have been issues in the past with at least one male body's alpha being just a little bit too short, so a tiny sliver of system avatar skin poked through and caused a lot of questions in Catwa support chat, with guys using that body asking why they had a thin differently-coloured line of skin around their head and neck join.

Just to address the bolded sections of the following, though -

4 hours ago, Aerdrie Fabre said:

I noticed that Logo heads use the same wear point for their head alpha as Maitreya does for their body alpha - so they can't overlap

- always use the 'add' option when wearing anything from inventory, never the 'wear' option. Many mesh items - from bodies and heads to clothing - make use of the same attachment points (the left hand is very popular as a default). Using 'add' (even on system layers such as alphas) allows you to wear multiples of the same thing on the same point.

However, an additional note to that: if you find that things are disappearing from your avatar after a teleport, you probably have too many mesh items attached to a single point. Check the 'worn' tab of your inventory to see where each thing is showing as being worn, and try not to have more than two things attached to each point. Rigged items (you'll know they're rigged if - when you right-click to edit them - you either can't select them, or you can select them but they don't move when you try to use the 'move' editing arrows; the arrows will move but the items won't) can have their attachment point changed to any other point and they'll still go to the correct location. Examples would be -

• mesh body attach to avatar centre
• mesh head attach to skull
• shoes attach to left foot (or left & right, if they're separate in the folder)
• skirt attach to left hand
• top attach to right hand

- and so on.

[Skell Dagger]

On 4/27/2019 at 12:53 AM, Scylla Rhiadra said:

OMG Skell. You are an absolute saint.

Whatever we're paying you isn't enough.

Wait... I'm supposed to be paid?!

[Sasy Scarborough]

5 hours ago, Aerdrie Fabre said:

We're currently working on heads and bodies - and I noticed that Logo heads use the same wear point for their head alpha as Maitreya does for their body alpha - so they can't overlap...any suggestions as to what we can do to remedy that?

If the body alpha is mod, you just go into edit and check the head box and you are done, or you can go to library and use the alphas in there. Alphas as in system layers do not have a wear point, they are just alpha layers, you may be confusing the fact that wearing one will remove the other, that is the best use for ADD, you can stack as many as needed

[Scylla Rhiadra]

6 hours ago, Skell Dagger said:

Wait... I'm supposed to be paid?!

I know, I know.

Virtue is its own reward, etc. Not to mention the starry-eyed devotion of your legions of grateful admirers!

 

More seriously though, I hope that LL is at least aware, at some level, of how important the work -- and it's real work -- that you and others like Lindal and Rolig do here is. I guess, to some degree, the hiring of Strawberry represents a kind of acknowledgement of that. But knowledgeable, articulate, and, most of all, generous people like you are worth many thousands of dollars to this platform.

I'd really like to see LL institute some kind of public award or recognition for those who, like yourself, devote serious time and effort to helping others, especially noobs.

[Sum Littlepaws]

On 4/25/2019 at 9:46 PM, Aerdrie Fabre said:

Hehe thanks for your CSR qualifier  .  I did wonder how all of the head appliers could account for the skin tones of all of the body appliers, and vice versa, and now I see that it's not universal, which logistically makes sense.  Has someone made a list of universally known pairings of head/body matches?

You mention Bento heads. I believe I would be more drawn to these to try to keep my custom look that I've had for these 13 years (if I decided to go mesh instead of stay with my system head).  Is Bento something that Catwa or other head appliers incorporate into their heads, or is Bento another company?  And on that same note, for heads that aren't Bento - is it essentially like buying that head shape, and not just the skin they're wearing?  So if I bought a (made up) Lelutka Jenny head, and my friend bought a Lelutka Jenny head as well, we'd have the same face, but potentially different skins via the Lelutka head HUD?

I'm sure I'll think of other tiny nuances to pick at your brain about....heh

There is kind of a list in the web. Take a look here http://meshbodyaddicts.com/

[Skell Dagger]

37 minutes ago, summernightsdream said:

There is kind of a list in the web. Take a look here http://meshbodyaddicts.com/

It's a reasonably good list, yes, but it's really only good for learning how to work with mesh bodies and heads, as the listings of mesh heads and bodies on the site are very old and outdated (it hasn't been updated since August 2018).

Case in point: only five Catwa female Bento heads are listed (there are currently 25 of them in the store) and only one Catwa male Bento head (there are currently eight in the store). None of them mention or show the 16 full-face AO motion-capture animations that the heads were updated to back in September 2017, so even though the site continued being updated for another 11 months, those listings weren't updated.

Likewise the bodies. Since I'm mainly familiar with male bodies I can see that the listing for Slink Physique Male shows the very first HUD that it came with, and is horribly out-of-date). The listing for Signature only includes Gianni and omits Geralt (and shows the old HUD). The listing for Belleza Jake shows the old version, and so on.

There are some good tutorials on the site that can still be learned from, but I wouldn't recommend it for any complete or up-to-date listing of mesh body parts, for any brand. For that I'd recommend Strawberry Singh's blog, since she at least (until her recent hiring by Linden Lab) posted up-to-date video reviews.

[Aerdrie Fabre]

On 5/5/2019 at 3:12 AM, Skell Dagger said:

always use the 'add' option when wearing anything from inventory, never the 'wear' option. Many mesh items - from bodies and heads to clothing - make use of the same attachment points (the left hand is very popular as a default). Using 'add' (even on system layers such as alphas) allows you to wear multiples of the same thing on the same point.

 

On 5/5/2019 at 3:40 AM, Sasy Scarborough said:

Alphas as in system layers do not have a wear point, they are just alpha layers, you may be confusing the fact that wearing one will remove the other, that is the best use for ADD, you can stack as many as needed

Thanks for this useful tip!  

As an aside, I feel like the general trepidation/misconception of mesh bodies isn't just about the bodies themselves, but about the changes to how SL is used from back in the olden days.  I realize this is obvious to those who have been inworld for recent years as mesh bodies became a thing, but as an oldie, I didn't realize until actually playing with the bodies that really it's just based off of your base avatar shape.  It makes body joints(?) smoother (and more often than not, the rear-end bigger).  I think part of the trepidation for folks who have been on a break from SL and are just now coming back, is that the way you navigate the system feels more complex than it used to be.  Now it feels VERY HUD-heavy and instead of being able to universally use clothing, you have to demo everything before buying it.  Kind of feels like a "how many clicks to get to the outfit you want" sort of thing.  Of course, this increases the power of customization so there is that benefit.

On 5/3/2019 at 8:14 AM, Conifer Dada said:

I joined in 2006 and still have a system avatar and am happy that way.  Although mesh does offer better detailing, with a good skin and sensible shape system avatars can still look good.  System clothing is still good for tight-fitting items though obviously mesh is better for loose or baggy items. 

That said, I totally get where Conifer's coming from .  My system body was not far off from my mesh body, even with the smoother curves added.  AND my clothing options are significantly greater - not only because of the amount of time I put into getting those outfits, but because I agree about the "baggy" items.  System clothes obviously fit a bit tighter because well...they're pretty much drawn on the body itself.  An outfit I just got last night for my mesh body looked a little like I had wrapped foam around my body.  Still a great dress, but would have been better if it'd been "thinner", or closer to the body.  (And yes, I did demo it, so I was aware of the effect).  

Anyway, so I don't go too far off topic.  For any other folks using this thread as a way to learn about skins/mesh bodies, thus far I've learned the following that I don't think was mentioned before (or maybe it was and I didn't understand it EDIT: Skell definitely mentioned it...and now I'm repeating it 😛)

If you have a Mesh Head, you don't actually need to buy a new system skin or system/classic skin applier.  Mesh heads seem to come with their own set of skins and body appliers.  So as long as your Mesh Head company has a body applier for your mesh body, it can ensure that your mesh body has the same tone of skin as your head.  This extrapolates to what I have been taught which (I believe) is if you want to find a different brand of skin for your whole mesh head/body, then you need to find the applier for your body and your head for that particular skin.

Following combos (Brand names used as examples...but also because that's what I used):

• System Head
• System Body
• LAQ Classic Skin
• Need: No appliers.
• Clothing: Look for clothing that says it's for classic/system AVs

• System Head
• Maitreya Mesh Body
• LAQ Classic Skin
• Need: LAQ Applier for Maitreya Body (gives LAQ tones for Maitreya body)
• Clothing: Look for mesh clothing that says it's for Maitreya. System clothing will not work though prim attachments should.

• LOGO Mesh Head (comes with 6 diff tones of skin in customization installer/hud)
• Maitreya Mesh Body
• No System Skin Needed
• Need: LOGO Applier for Maitreya Body (matches your body's tone with your face's tone)
• Clothing: Look for mesh clothing that says it's for Maitreya.  System clothing will not work though prim attachments should.

Tune in for more adventures :p.

Edited May 6, 2019 by Aerdrie Fabre

[Chase01]

On 5/6/2019 at 8:45 AM, Aerdrie Fabre said:

I think part of the trepidation for folks who have been on a break from SL and are just now coming back, is that the way you navigate the system feels more complex than it used to be.  Now it feels VERY HUD-heavy and instead of being able to universally use clothing, you have to demo everything before buying it.  Kind of feels like a "how many clicks to get to the outfit you want" sort of thing.  Of course, this increases the power of customization so there is that benefit. 

Initially, it does but you'll find that once you get the basics down it's relatively straightforward. I NEVER EVER want to go back to a time when we couldn't demo clothing. 😁

Edited May 8, 2019 by Chase01

[Aerdrie Fabre]

9 hours ago, Chase01 said:

Initially, it does but you'll find that once you get the basics down it's relatively straightforward. I NEVER EVER want to go back to a time when we couldn't demo clothing. 😁

Hah good point.  I spent a couple of hours trying on demos I'd been queuing up from the marketplace.  Realized a store I thought would be super cute turned out to be kinda meh.  So +1 for demos :p.

Now if I can only figure out why shoes that say they're for the maitreya body attach on about half a foot in front of my feet!!

[Chase01]

4 hours ago, Aerdrie Fabre said:

Hah good point.  I spent a couple of hours trying on demos I'd been queuing up from the marketplace.  Realized a store I thought would be super cute turned out to be kinda meh.  So +1 for demos :p.

Now if I can only figure out why shoes that say they're for the maitreya body attach on about half a foot in front of my feet!!

It could be that you have to change your foot position (flat, medium, high). If it still doesn't fit after doing that, then there is a good chance the shoe was rigged without the use of the dev kit.

As you know, in the past, we had no other choice but to rely on advertisements to make purchasing decisions. Demos help give peace of mind, and more importantly, it can help to increase sales and even provide an opportunity for a lesser-known vendor to make a sale. It does not come as a surprise to me that I own more FATPACKS from the vendors which offer a FATPACK HUD with their demo.