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TMP Legacy mesh body

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8 hours ago, Alyona Su said:

No one is trying to convince anyone else of anything. No one is even saying anyone else is wrong. You give your perspective and opinion, I give mine, others give theirs. It's not a debate no matter how much you may try to make it such. My main point was made by @Orion Pastorelli.

Alyona, you picked half a sentenced, ignored the rest and immediately mounted a high horse.

If you'll please refrain from telling me what I do and don't see, I'll explain it again, as simply as possible.

Legacy has twice the complexity of Maitreya - going by my version of the latest FS Viewer - with heaven only knows how many more scripts than other bodes.

In a nutshell, what amounts to 20k on Maitreya will usually be found to be around 40k+ on Legacy.

And I struggled to get my script count down below 3mb wearing Legacy. It usually hovered over 3mb + so that I gave up and returned to Maitreya.

I believe you said that different viewers will give different numbers so that the numbers I was seeing don't exist/aren't valid/weren't real. 

That isn't actually a valid argument unless you can prove that the numbers given by other viewers consistently demonstrate the bottom line:  whether Legacy is half the complexity of Maitreya, or double.

Let's ignore the fact that I haven't come across someone with an identical version of FS whose numbers have disagreed with mine - no matter what numbers other viewers give, I think they'll still demonstrate that Legacy is double Maitreya's complexity.

That's all I tried to say.

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8 hours ago, steeljane42 said:

As if legacy had a good neck seam. It doesn't. In fact it has worse one as far as Catwa and Lelutka heads go at least, don't like Genus so didn't bothered to test with their demos, so maybe for their heads it's better (last time I did check genus heads had pretty bad neck seam with maitreya and belleza bodies).

As far as cracks go it's just badly made mesh, nothing else. Especially considering amount of triangles and vertices. If it was on the low end, then yeah, we could justify it by "gotta sacrifice something for the sake of being light". But being the most heavy mesh body on the market... it's just pure laziness or the lack of skill. In fact those issues are visible on the first look, the matter of minutes. There is absolutely no way they didn't seen it during testing before the release, yet it's still out "as is" and how long it's been since release, half a year already? It's pretty critical bug, considering that only use the mesh body has is vanity. We'll see if they ever fix it or it will forever be in "beta" stage, like original deluxe TMP body which remained beta for 5 years.

 

Yeah, no. Let's see. Matireya: vertices - 151.467, triangles - 253.824, VRAM - 45.076. Legacy: vertices - 787.122, triangles - 823.600, vram - 113.528. Belleza (all female bodies, they have no difference as far as I know): vertices - 398.422, triangles - 521.695, vram - 59.396. Slink is the most light one by far, didn't bothered to check it this time as I don't use it, but it had like 1/3 of Maitreya's. So as far as vertices and triangles go, you can fit 4x people wearing maitreya vs 1 with legacy body. Means your viewer is more likely to choke way sooner, considering all extra mesh with 1024x1024 textures around. Attachment below. Left is maitreya (2nd part is hands, which are separate, so 2x for that), middle is legacy, right is belleza.

And to clarify: I'm certainly not the one to care about the lag or complexity in general, unless it does reach extreme values, like 1m triangles chair. Outside of crowded shopping events where I go only to grab stuff and certainly not to look at others, I don't bother with jellydolls whatsoever, it's always on "unlimited" and my own region is very far from being optimized for low-end PCs, with pretty heavy stuff almost everywhere you can go. So it's not to say "legacy causes the lag and global warming!", I really couldn't care less if it is, just pure numbers. And as far as mesh bodies go, legacy is on the very top, I think signature's gianni was on par with it long ago, but they did optimize it at some point.

 

temp3.jpg

Thank you for that detailed comparison.  It's why I don't wear Legacy to concerts - I just feel like I'm being part of the lag problem for performers.

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11 hours ago, halebore Aeon said:

To be quite frank speaking about Nalates earlier post, I don't think many people will change to BOM. They really don't understand that these system layers have been updated, and a lot of skin companies have been creating updates, with system layers in their packages. A lot of people think, we are gonna go back to the days of 512 by 512 and that it will make their avatar not look as pretty. But maybe if they gave it a try, with the skins they have. They would understand, that it has changed a lot since then.

Are you kidding, chickadee??? Oh please please please get a BOM skin and wear it? Have a feeling you'll feel more liberated than the bra burning sixties (not that I was there...:P )

I seriously can't get enough of them. No appliers - yayifications!

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2 hours ago, AnyaJurelle said:
14 hours ago, halebore Aeon said:

To be quite frank speaking about Nalates earlier post, I don't think many people will change to BOM. They really don't understand that these system layers have been updated, and a lot of skin companies have been creating updates, with system layers in their packages. A lot of people think, we are gonna go back to the days of 512 by 512 and that it will make their avatar not look as pretty. But maybe if they gave it a try, with the skins they have. They would understand, that it has changed a lot since then.

Are you kidding, chickadee??? Oh please please please get a BOM skin and wear it? Have a feeling you'll feel more liberated than the bra burning sixties (not that I was there...:P )

I seriously can't get enough of them. No appliers - yayifications!

Anya, I'm going to gently suggest that you re-read Halebore's words that you quoted there, and this time read them fully rather than just skimming them through the annoyance you might feel after two pages of disagreement with both them and Alyona.

Halebore is in (at least partial-) agreement with you regarding BOM, as per the words I've bolded below:

Quote

 

I don't think many people will change to BOM. They really don't understand that these system layers have been updated, and a lot of skin companies have been creating updates, with system layers in their packages. A lot of people think, we are gonna go back to the days of 512 by 512 and that it will make their avatar not look as pretty. But maybe if they gave it a try, with the skins they have. They would understand, that it has changed a lot since then.

 

The italicised words are reasons that many people might give for not changing to BOM. The bolded words are refuting those reasons. You have read those italicised words as being Halebore's own reasons for not changing to BOM.

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@Skell Dagger You're quite right, I did what I hate others doing and missed that.

Do we really need to understand the ins and outs of BOM in order to wear it and go about our business? It's like people giving you a history less on the town you live in when you only asked for directions on how to get from Main St to End St. That's exactly what caused so much confusion for me when I was new to SL. Wordy people. Frustrated professors.

My idiot's guide to BOM skins - shoot me for wanting to get to the point and avoid unnecessary confusion:

1. Remove your full body alpha

2. Wear an eyes only alpha layer (don't know if she still has them but ADORED was generously giving away a free alpha pack at her main store a month or so ago).

3. Add your head's Omega system kit to your screen.

4. Add your body's Omega system kit to your screen.

5. Add the Baked on Mesh Omega hud to your screen.

6. Right click and add the funny little beige man icon that's in your skin package.

7. Click the 'Baked on Mesh' omega hud.

8. You're done.

Sometimes I think we get so carried away with words, we make simple things seem prohibitively complicated when they're not.

 

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14 hours ago, steeljane42 said:

Bad internet won't cause any FPS drops

This is true. FPS loss will have to do with your hardware capabilities and the graphic setting you implement. FPS is an always ever has been "local system lag".

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9 hours ago, AnyaJurelle said:

If you'll please refrain from telling me what I do and don't see, I'll explain it again, as simply as possible.

Wow. I haven't ever once told you what to do or that you cannot see anything. So if I'm on a high horse, you've climbed a mountain.  But enough with the personal tit-for-tat. Your experience is your experience and mine is mine. The difference is that it appears that you are proclaiming your experience the defacto experience. I am not doing this. In case it is not clear, I will clarity my position for you: It is my own position and experience, others' may vary.

All in all the entire argument is moot, because people are going to wear what they want to wear, latency, lag and otherwise all glitchiness of SL is going to prevail because of the years of unoptimized user-created garbage all over the grid, and others who want their cake and to eat it, too, by setting their graphics far too high than their systems are capable of and throwing the result in blame to Linden Lab for creating a "trash online system".

C'est la vie.

Edited by Alyona Su

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10 hours ago, AnyaJurelle said:

Do we really need to understand the ins and outs of BOM in order to wear it and go about our business? It's like people giving you a history less on the town you live in when you only asked for directions on how to get from Main St to End St.

Whenever I've had to train someone to do something that I've been doing for a long time, I've always found they retain information much more easily if they understand why they are doing it, rather than just following a list of tasks. (This has the added bonus of allowing them - as a newcomer to that task - to question those reasons why, and that in turn could lead to the realisation of a better, more efficient way of performing that task.)

In your city directions example, then of course having the history lesson might be a little excessive. But let's look at your Idiot's Guide to BOM and apply that additional understanding to it:

In the Catwa support group we get a lot of people asking why they can't wear a skin applier and use a BOM relay to have their system makeup showing on top of it. It's a valid question that might simply be answered with, "Sorry, but that's not possible".

It's the quickest answer you can give anyone, but aren't you curious as to why it's not possible? Are you curious to know how the Omega BOM HUD works and what it does, and why it (and any other BOM relay HUD, be it Catwa or Maitreya etc) works the way it does and stops you from being able to wear a skin applier and have your system makeup show on top of it?

BOM relays are skin appliers. They apply the BOM 'bake' textures to the skin layer of your mesh avatar, thus allowing the system layers to bake onto your mesh body parts. If you try to apply an actual skin all that will happen is what happens when you apply any skin: it will replace the skin you had previously applied (in other words: the 'normal' skin applier removes the 'skin' applied by the BOM relay HUD). That's why the system makeup won't show on top of the 'normal' skin applier: you've removed the BOM capability of your mesh body parts by changing your appliers from the 'BOM bake texture' skin to a normal skin.

The analogy that I use to explain this to those in the group who ask is as follows:

Quote

Skin appliers will ‘block’ any underlying system textures. Think of your mesh head and body as a big window. BOM lets you see through the ‘glass’ to the underlying system textures. A skin applier acts like a thick coat of paint on that glass, blocking your view. Other appliers (makeup, tattoos, hairbases, etc) just add nice details on top of the system textures, but skin appliers are like blackout curtains and hide the system layers completely.

Edited by Skell Dagger
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26 minutes ago, AnyaJurelle said:

@Skell Dagger Yes, you're right of course, but  can't the long-winded stuff come after they've got a quick 'how to'? 

Of course it can, but I work inworld support every day and I have lost count of the number of people who come into group day after day, having been given 'the simple answer' - which they've then followed to the letter, then only a day or so later they come back because they messed up and don't know how to fix it. They get given the same 'simple answer', mainly because "they don't have time" to listen to the explanation as to why it's happening. But they're quite happy to take up support's time (and their own) asking the same question over and over and over and over, day after day after day...

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3 minutes ago, Skell Dagger said:

Of course it can, but I work inworld support every day and I have lost count of the number of people who come into group day after day, having been given 'the simple answer' - which they've then followed to the letter, then only a day or so later they come back because they messed up and don't know how to fix it. They get given the same 'simple answer', mainly because "they don't have time" to listen to the explanation as to why it's happening. But they're quite happy to take up support's time (and their own) asking the same question over and over and over and over, day after day after day...

Point taken, Skell :)

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17 hours ago, Skell Dagger said:

Of course it can, but I work inworld support every day and I have lost count of the number of people who come into group day after day, having been given 'the simple answer' - which they've then followed to the letter, then only a day or so later they come back because they messed up and don't know how to fix it. They get given the same 'simple answer', mainly because "they don't have time" to listen to the explanation as to why it's happening. But they're quite happy to take up support's time (and their own) asking the same question over and over and over and over, day after day after day...

Among the quips my father always beat into my head: "It takes longer to do something right the first time, but three times as long to do the same something a second time."

When I try to help people (in SL and RL) if they don't have "the time" for the explanation of why then I stop helping them and ask them to contact me when they do have the time because my time is as important as there time is. (Though I get it: CSR is a different monster altogether!) :)

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The fact that you have to do anything at all to deal with any neck seam at all is a problem.  I wear Aesthetic, and the head fits perfectly.  No adjusting.  No nothing.  It can be done right.

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13 hours ago, Erwin Solo said:

The fact that you have to do anything at all to deal with any neck seam at all is a problem.  I wear Aesthetic, and the head fits perfectly.  No adjusting.  No nothing.  It can be done right.

It can work atleast with Lelutka heads it's almost perfect, this is with midday windlight which is more or less the most unforgiving light you can find:

neck.png

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13 hours ago, Erwin Solo said:

The fact that you have to do anything at all to deal with any neck seam at all is a problem.  I wear Aesthetic, and the head fits perfectly.  No adjusting.  No nothing.  It can be done right.

This always will be true when the body creator and the head creator are the same.

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17 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

This always will be true when the body creator and the head creator are the same.

Yeah, but mesh bodies and heads are way overpriced, and the bubble is just bound to burst in this modern-day version of Tulip Mania (cf. article on wikipedia).  One would hope that more body makers would start putting out decent heads, bundled with the price of the body. 

There is frankly no reason for the head to be a separate mesh.  The whole body can easily be uploaded as a single mesh.  The current artificial division of body parts into products generates much work for the many, and sales for a few.  

It is one of those marketing coups in which the populace is fooled into paying more for less.

Edited by Erwin Solo

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7 minutes ago, Erwin Solo said:

Yeah, but mesh bodies and heads are way overpriced, and the bubble is just bound to burst in this modern-day version of Tulip Mania (cf. article on wikipedia).  One would hope that more body makers would start putting out decent heads, bundled with the price of the body.

Prices seem a bit steep, yes, but they aren't exactly made in 5 minutes. What price would you put on your time if you made a bento head and/or body?

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8 minutes ago, Erwin Solo said:

The models are opensource from Linden Labs at http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Project_Bento_Resources_and_Information .  

 

1 minute ago, AnyaJurelle said:

Still needs talent to put it all together so it comes out looking half decent, doesn't it? Or can it be done in 5 minutes?

 

14 minutes ago, AnyaJurelle said:

Prices seem a bit steep, yes, but they aren't exactly made in 5 minutes. What price would you put on your time if you made a bento head and/or body?

 

25 minutes ago, Erwin Solo said:

Yeah, but mesh bodies and heads are way overpriced, and the bubble is just bound to burst in this modern-day version of Tulip Mania (cf. article on wikipedia).  One would hope that more body makers would start putting out decent heads, bundled with the price of the body. 

There is frankly no reason for the head to be a separate mesh.  The whole body can easily be uploaded as a single mesh.  The current artificial division of body parts into products generates much work for the many, and sales for a few.  

It is one of those marketing coups in which the populace is fooled into paying more for less.

That's the thing, think about the time and effort it takes to mesh out the body, and rig the bento skeleton to it. Making sure weights and other things are perfect. I have tried rigging myself, I wanted to make my own mesh clothes, and it's not an easy endeavour. I know they are two separate things, but still rigging isn't easy. It's the bones that are open source, not the actual model itself, the creator has to build around the bones and rig and weigh it correctly. So the mesh body actually works with the bones. I think the prices right now are perfect the way they are, I used to complain about prices being way too high. But at the same time, you also gotta factor in the fact that they have to upload the mesh model, the textures, and they also have overhead costs they have to worry about. Especially if they have to worry about paying for a sim, csrs, and other variables. Being a designer in SL, isn't cheap. And for a lot of these creators, this is their full time RL job. So they also gotta pay their RL bills and stuff.

So yeah, I feel with all those factors and variables, that they are priced fairly. Being the fact that we are on about Lelutka, Genus, Catwa being the highest priced. There are other more cheaper options, that don't cost 5k. Belleza, Maitreya, Signature, Vista, Logo, and Laq are very well made heads, and priced cheaper than the companies I mentioned above. But I do like having the choice of all these varying prices, it allows me to choose what is best for my budget, or if I want to splurge and go all out. So yeah at the end of the day, there are way more bodies and heads that cost less then Lelutka, Genus, Catwa and Legacy. Those high priced heads and bodies, only make up a minority for such high prices.

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1 minute ago, halebore Aeon said:

 

 

 

That's the thing, think about the time and effort it takes to mesh out the body, and rig the bento skeleton to it. Making sure weights and other things are perfect. I have tried rigging myself, I wanted to make my own mesh clothes, and it's not an easy endeavour. I know they are two separate things, but still rigging isn't easy. It's the bones that are open source, not the actual model itself, the creator has to build around the bones and rig and weigh it correctly. So the mesh body actually works with the bones. I think the prices right now are perfect the way they are, I used to complain about prices being way too high. But at the same time, you also gotta factor in the fact that they have to upload the mesh model, the textures, and they also have overhead costs they have to worry about. Especially if they have to worry about paying for a sim, csrs, and other variables. Being a designer in SL, isn't cheap. And for a lot of these creators, this is their full time RL job. So they also gotta pay their RL bills and stuff.

So yeah, I feel with all those factors and variables, that they are priced fairly. Being the fact that we are on about Lelutka, Genus, Catwa being the highest priced. There are other more cheaper options, that don't cost 5k. Belleza, Maitreya, Signature, Vista, Logo, and Laq are very well made heads, and priced cheaper than the companies I mentioned above. But I do like having the choice of all these varying prices, it allows me to choose what is best for my budget, or if I want to splurge and go all out. So yeah at the end of the day, there are way more bodies and heads that cost less then Lelutka, Genus, Catwa and Legacy. Those high priced heads and bodies, only make up a minority for such high prices.

I rather thought there had to be some skill and know-how involved. Taking all that into account, the prices aren't really that steep after all.

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35 minutes ago, Erwin Solo said:

Yeah, but mesh bodies and heads are way overpriced, and the bubble is just bound to burst in this modern-day version of Tulip Mania (cf. article on wikipedia).  One would hope that more body makers would start putting out decent heads, bundled with the price of the body. 

There is frankly no reason for the head to be a separate mesh.  The whole body can easily be uploaded as a single mesh.  The current artificial division of body parts into products generates much work for the many, and sales for a few.  

It is one of those marketing coups in which the populace is fooled into paying more for less.

There is a perfectly good reason for head and body to be separate. Not everyone wants to wear the same face. Not everyone wants to wear the same body.

 

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15 minutes ago, AnyaJurelle said:

Still needs talent to put it all together so it comes out looking half decent, doesn't it? Or can it be done in 5 minutes?

Well, I was uploading full Avatars back in 2014.  I found that the barriers to offering a product were:

1. All the skins were obfuscated into the SL Skin construct, so that one could not ('legally') extract them to textures for application to the body. BOM fixed that.

2. The skins were based on 512x512 pixel segments for upper and lower body, whereas the mesh could take 1024x1024.  So, mesh bodies didn't really make sense because skin makers were not in the game.  Time has fixed that.  

3. Facial expressions required scripting hacks, because there were insufficient bones in the skeleton.  Bento fixed that.

4. Doing anything original with the shape (e.g., more shapely curves) required customization of clothing that required a full clothing ecosystem.  The clothing ecosystem is what is drives the market now.  The bodies with high market share and the clothing ecosystem are resonating with each other.  

 

Its a marketing game not a technical game now.    

 

Edited by Erwin Solo

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1 minute ago, AnyaJurelle said:

I rather thought there had to be some skill and know-how involved. Taking all that into account, the prices aren't really that steep after all.

I have tried, and watched many a tutorial. I don't have the skill, know how or even the patience for it. Lol. But yeah I feel like having that choice to have a lot of cheaper options out there, really give users that freedom to choose what they want. But at the end of the day, Strawberry Linden said it well. There is no such thing as the best body or head, but what is best for you.  And in real life, you have this thing called there are many different companies with varying prices for their item. Do you shop smart and get the same product cheaper? Or do you go all out and get the most expensive option? It's quite a simple thing really.

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5 minutes ago, Erwin Solo said:

Well, I was uploading full Avatars back in 2014.  I found that the barriers to offering a product were:

1. All the skins were obfuscated into the SL Skin construct, so that one could not ('legally') extract them to textures for application to the body. BOM fixed that.

2. The skins were based on 512x512 pixel segments for upper and lower body, whereas the mesh could take 1024x1024.  So, mesh bodies didn't really make sense because skin makers were not in the game.  Time has fixed that.  

3. Facial expressions required scripting hacks, because there were insufficient bones in the skeleton.  Bento fixed that.

4. Doing anything original with the shape (e.g., more shapely curves) required customization of clothing that required a full clothing ecosystem.  The clothing ecosystem is what is drives the market now.  The bodies with high market share and the clothing ecosystem are resonating with each other.  

 

Its a marketing game not a technical game now.    

 

See all that right there looks exactly like Japanese to me. This is why I should never be let loose around technical stuff. Not even the easy stuff.

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